WayTools' TextBlade Keyboard to Start Shipping to Test Group Users Next Week

[ericpeets]

One wonders if he is working with or against WT doesn't it? Longer this all plays out the more he gets to hear the sound of his own voice.

One don't forget the September purge, where I was found guilty of living in the same house as my wife, which got us both banned.

Us bystanders are watching from the sidelines here https://www.reddit.com/r/textblade/ pop in to add some balance if you like. Redditors love us a good post.

It is interesting that they accept no responsibility for the searing wave of hatred in their own forum. Maybe they should not use the least popular and longest winded member as a mouthpiece?



That we know of so far. Twitter only sourced MacRumors (must drop the u...) and aggregators who sourced MacRumors.

Yes, I remember you, Rolanbek. Didn't they ban you for a year, for what was it? Rape or something? They simply cannot take any criticism or humor.

You would done much better to play the sycophantic guard/lap dog, then you'd be chosen for TREG and even get a call from the big cheese, which you can wear like a badge of honor to brag to everyone.

It's crazy, just crazy.

 

[Rolanbek]

Yes, I remember you, Rolanbek. Didn't they ban you for a year, for what was it? Rape or something? They simply cannot take any criticism or humor.

You would done much better to play the sycophantic guard/lap dog, then you'd be chosen for TREG and even get a call from the big cheese, which you can wear like a badge of honor to brag to everyone.

It's crazy, just crazy.

It was the warranty question.

Which incidentally they never answered.

Apparently they thought pretending to be upset about it was a good way of getting rid of me. They also cancelled my order, my wifes order and restricted the usage of a dozen forum users.

 

[KaliYoni]

is Juli the only one who got a testing unit?

this follows another delay of shipping to testers

WayTools needs to enroll itself into a 12-step program, STAT! Its response to MacRumors' decision, along with announcing the TREG program but only sending out one sample product, is both yet another demonstration of WT's astounding talent for self-destructive behavior and a validation of MR's pullback from TextBlade coverage.
[doublepost=1456247579][/doublepost]

Longer this all plays out the more he gets to hear the sound of his own voice.

One don't forget the September purge, where I was found guilty of living in the same house as my wife, which got us both banned.

In many ways, WayTools is taking on the characteristics of a cult. Take a look here: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2009/may/27/cults-definition-religion . Any of that sound familiar? And a business summoning defenders of the faith to a crusade on a message board is, in a word, pathetic.

 

[shareef777]

WayTools needs to enroll itself into a 12-step program, STAT! Its response to MacRumors' decision, along with announcing the TREG program but only sending out one sample product, is both yet another demonstration of WT's astounding talent for self-destructive behavior and a validation of MR's pullback from TextBlade coverage.
[doublepost=1456247579][/doublepost]

In many ways, WayTools is taking on the characteristics of a cult. Take a look here: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2009/may/27/cults-definition-religion . Any of that sound familiar? And a business summoning defenders of the faith to a crusade on a message board is, in a word, pathetic.

What's even scarier are the few people that are falling in line with their cult. They have done absolutely nothing that's even remotely close to being considered good customer service, and yet there are those that are truly upset that anyone would say anything negative about them.

 

[dabigkahuna]

Ah, so many posts to deal with. No doubt I'll be accused of writing long posts again, ignoring the facts that:

1. There are so many to deal with.

2. It is so much easier to write short posts when you are just throwing out accusations rather than making rational arguments.

But let's see if I can consolidate some of the issues. Maybe focus on one in particular since it reveals a number of problems that apply to others before moving on to those.

There is the claim of "fake videos, consistent false claims, incomprehensible explanations, unverifiable testimonials".

We then have the examples (which is better than most critics do) so kudos for that.

They say they are "pretty sure" the hands-on even was "completely bogus". Because one person had tweeted in a way that made them think they weren't real. But that's all personal opinion, not meaningful at all.

They go on to make how the refund was made with the information she was sent. Yet there was nothing wrong with what they said! If anything, they gave more info than you would usually expect. That's a good thing! Yet this is made into an issue??? Most important, they said they'd be surprised to ever see the refund. Now, I'll give credit, they did follow up and say they did receive the refund and maybe they spoke too soon. Which is kinda my point to many!

The problem is, in this, the only area where solid facts can be determined, they were wrong in their accusations. Maybe that should make them question the others too.

Instead, they went on "questioning" if they were committing fraud. The issues they follow this with are kinda silly: "double-talk on the blog" - no examples. "strange video" - didn't seem strange to me, but then, I wasn't trying to support assumptions. "hostility to complaints" - okay, I agree with that one, but that's because I've seen real examples. "incomplete website" - oh, c'mon, one can find things to complain about any website. Overall their's is fine. Some things I really like. Some things I don't. It sure isn't evidence of anything evil. But if you are looking for anything to complain about, hey, why not just throw it in there? "They seem to be playing for time; something is rotten" - well, they MAY have been playing for time, or not. But none of this actually shows something is rotten. That's an assumption based on, mostly, items that don't really support the idea.

They question the $1 million donation wanting to know who got it. Well, it was actually a $1 million worth of Textblades, not cash (10,000 of them to match the first 10,000 orders - which apparently happened in two days). But obviously, since they are still working on the device, no one has actually gotten one yet! That's a shame, but until it ships, there is nothing to question here.

Also questioned who was in the video. Well, since they were chosen from ordinary customers who lived not too far away, I suspect they wouldn't want their names broadcast. I have all kinds of issues with the video and what they focused on. But nothing evil assumed.

Or saying we "just want our keyboards", thus the extra gifts don't count. Newsflash - whether there is an extra gift or not, you'd still be waiting. That being the case, I might as well have a gift too.

And sometimes things are just wrong - like saying the webpages are never updated. Which is weird since I check periodically and there are updates. Sure, some are essentially static — why not, since they are about basic information which hasn't changed? Why take a page, with a video of a Textblade being demonstrated or videos of different layers, etc, and keep changing it? Of course you wouldn't. But there have been blog updates and status updates, plus updates in forums.

Or the claim that it's fake videos because you can't pause them. Weird, because I have no problem pausing the ones I checked. So here is another claim that is simply wrong.

Quantity of complaints does not make up for quality.

Then we have one more item which we can really get a real factual confirmation on - they say they'd be surprised if it isn't a scam. But they also wrote that since an MR reporter actually used it, so maybe I was right!

So, we consistently had criticisms based on assumptions - some may be possible, some were clearly wrong. And those were real facts were available were wrong (other than the one about how they've treated some customers).

Maybe people need to consider that more.

You see, as soon as you start assuming someone is lying or some similar thing, you essentially don't need facts any more. You can just claim any counter information is also a lie or really representing WT. I know, because when I dare object to the ridiculous attacks being made on the other forum, it took little time before I was accused of really being Mark Knighton! It does save time, doesn't it? Just make a bogus accusation to avoid counter arguments.

 

[Tsoo]

Way tools and its management havr actively misrepresented themselves and their "product" on an almost weekly basis for over a year.

They have posted impossible shipment dates monthly, lied about the state of testing, used fake accounts to argue when rational people complained. Many, in my opinion, gullible people have paid a $100 each over a year in advance to be treated in this manner.

I can't explain why anyone would give this company their money.

There is every reason not to trust them.

If they ship, the product works well, they survive and support their product... Not terribly likely then at that time it might be worth buying their product.

However, given their, lack of ethics and/or maturity it is likely better to purchase from someone else at that time.

Macrumors blogging on this stinking pile should be an embarrassment to them.

 

[dabigkahuna]

Funny to hear people who are not getting a Textblade, but keep posting the same complaints over and over then claim I just want to hear the sound of my own voice! Logical consistency isn't their best thing.

And the insinuations that I just help WT - yet no one can show a single legitimate complaint that I haven't agreed with. Seems you have to be all in with some people's rantings or you can actually even be accused of working for WT.

Then we have the "brilliant" "arguments" that WT is like a cult and meds to be in a 12-step program. You don't get "facts" like that nearly enough (yeah, that's sarcasm). Oh, and of course saying others are falling in line with the "cult". Seems to me some of these critics are more like a cult since they can't stand anyone challenging them. A revealing quote: "yet there are those that are truly upset that anyone would say anything negative about them." As mentioned before, I have criticized them for many things. I don't recall seeing a single person on any forum who has not expressed complaints. Yet the claim is that nothing negative is tolerated. Which is simply false. So why do we get those kind of comments?

Can I say they are "lying"? Since I can actually point to criticisms I agree with, their charge is absolutely false. Yet I don't say they are lying. Because I don't know their INTENT. Just as I don't accuse WT of lying for missing shipping estimates. To be a lie, they'd have to know the estimate was never intended. None of us know that.

So, I'll just look at it as someone saying something completely wrong because they are so frustrated at the WT delays, lack of enough communication, sometimes bad reactions to customers, that they simply don't really pay attention to what someone says who doesn't support everything the critics want to say.

But frustration must be controlled. We've seen right here that it cost us a good source of information on the Textblade, the only source that actually had one outside of WT. Critics can make all the excuses they want - the loss remains.
[doublepost=1456274534][/doublepost]

Way tools and its management havr actively misrepresented themselves and their "product" on an almost weekly basis for over a year.

Uh, okay. Next:

They have posted impossible shipment dates monthly, lied about the state of testing, used fake accounts to argue when rational people complained.

Okay, so you at least try to back up your initial comment above. However, how do you know they were "impossible"? We know they failed to meet them, so that isn't an answer. What did they "lie" about the state of testing? If they fail to solve a problem when they expect or if new problems come up during testing, how would that be a "lie"? What fake accounts did they use? I don't think I've heard that one before. Oh, wait, I do recall being accused of not only working for WT, but of actually being Mark Knighton! Is that what you are referring to? Because, if so, to be really nice about it, you are merely 100% wrong. But, as pointed out before, as soon as you start assuming someone is lying, it is pretty easy to just keep assuming it over and over again. Maybe you should reconsider that approach?

I can't explain why anyone would give this company their money.

Well, fine. But each of us makes our own choices. Fair enough? When I signed up, I considered it a risk. And I'm risk adverse! This is the first time I ever bought something that had not started shipping yet. I weighed the risk and, because I felt this could be really good, I accepted it. So far, I still do.

There is every reason not to trust them.

I'll grant there are some disturbing things that may give people pause. No problem as long as we are focusing on those. But there is not "every reason". There are reasons also to think this will ship, even if greatly delayed.

Macrumors blogging on this stinking pile should be an embarrassment to them.

Oh, please. They reported on how a device was working for them - AND included a lot of the past negatives. They did nothing wrong.

 

[bobdobalina]

Funny to hear people who are not getting a Textblade, but keep posting the same complaints over and over then claim I just want to hear the sound of my own voice! Logical consistency isn't their best thing.

And the insinuations that I just help WT - yet no one can show a single legitimate complaint that I haven't agreed with. Seems you have to be all in with some people's rantings or you can actually even be accused of working for WT.

Then we have the "brilliant" "arguments" that WT is like a cult and meds to be in a 12-step program. You don't get "facts" like that nearly enough (yeah, that's sarcasm). Oh, and of course saying others are falling in line with the "cult". Seems to me some of these critics are more like a cult since they can't stand anyone challenging them. A revealing quote: "yet there are those that are truly upset that anyone would say anything negative about them." As mentioned before, I have criticized them for many things. I don't recall seeing a single person on any forum who has not expressed complaints. Yet the claim is that nothing negative is tolerated. Which is simply false. So why do we get those kind of comments?

Can I say they are "lying"? Since I can actually point to criticisms I agree with, their charge is absolutely false. Yet I don't say they are lying. Because I don't know their INTENT. Just as I don't accuse WT of lying for missing shipping estimates. To be a lie, they'd have to know the estimate was never intended. None of us know that.

So, I'll just look at it as someone saying something completely wrong because they are so frustrated at the WT delays, lack of enough communication, sometimes bad reactions to customers, that they simply don't really pay attention to what someone says who doesn't support everything the critics want to say.

But frustration must be controlled. We've seen right here that it cost us a good source of information on the Textblade, the only source that actually had one outside of WT. Critics can make all the excuses they want - the loss remains.
[doublepost=1456274534][/doublepost]

Uh, okay. Next:



Okay, so you at least try to back up your initial comment above. However, how do you know they were "impossible"? We know they failed to meet them, so that isn't an answer. What did they "lie" about the state of testing? If they fail to solve a problem when they expect or if new problems come up during testing, how would that be a "lie"? What fake accounts did they use? I don't think I've heard that one before. Oh, wait, I do recall being accused of not only working for WT, but of actually being Mark Knighton! Is that what you are referring to? Because, if so, to be really nice about it, you are merely 100% wrong. But, as pointed out before, as soon as you start assuming someone is lying, it is pretty easy to just keep assuming it over and over again. Maybe you should reconsider that approach?



Well, fine. But each of us makes our own choices. Fair enough? When I signed up, I considered it a risk. And I'm risk adverse! This is the first time I ever bought something that had not started shipping yet. I weighed the risk and, because I felt this could be really good, I accepted it. So far, I still do.



I'll grant there are some disturbing things that may give people pause. No problem as long as we are focusing on those. But there is not "every reason". There are reasons also to think this will ship, even if greatly delayed.



Oh, please. They reported on how a device was working for them - AND included a lot of the past negatives. They did nothing wrong.

@dabigkahuna

You really shouldn't be complaining about anyone over-posting or being repetitive.

 

[dabigkahuna]

You really shouldn't be complaining about anyone over posting or being repetitive.

I'm pretty sure I didn't complain. Let's see, oh yeah, I said I found it funny.

And I'm fine with admitting I'm repetitive - because the silly complaints and bogus attacks tend to be about the same things so naturally the rebuttals will be as well. Solution? Simple. The critics can try to make more rational posts. Again, I've never objected to a legitimate criticism.

 

[Night Spring]

And I'm fine with admitting I'm repetitive - because the silly complaints and bogus attacks tend to be about the same things so naturally the rebuttals will be as well. Solution? Simple. The critics can try to make more rational posts. Again, I've never objected to a legitimate criticism.

Is there a need to rebut point by point? I think there are some hyperbolic exaggerations, and also some pointed sarcasm, like the "12 step program" remark. As you yourself point out, that's people venting frustration. I don't think you need to take those kinds of remarks literally.

Then there are the "liar" accusations. You object to those, because we don't know that they intended to lie, and we should give them the benefit of doubt until we have proof, right?

Well, WayTools have been telling us they'll ship TextBlade next month, then when that month is up, they say there was a delay but they'll ship next month, and so on, for over a year now. At this point, I don't think their intent matters so much. Whether or not they intended to lie, they did end up repeatedly promising to deliver then failed to deliver. If they are not lying, then they are grossly incompetent, and they have to face the consequences. One of the consequences of promising something then failing to keep your promise is that people might call you a liar. I do see your point that we don't know they actually intended to lie, so technically, we don't know that they are liars in fact. I myself wouldn't call them liars, until I have proof. But I'm not inclined to defend them if other people call them liars. They may not be intentionally lying, but they've certainly proved themselves untrustworthy, as in, when they say they'll ship something by next month, we can't trust them to do so.

Case in point -- has any testing unit other than Juli's shipped yet?

 

[dabigkahuna]

Is there a need to rebut point by point?

Actually, yes. Because I know I'll be outnumbered by those who just throw out accusations with no substance or really flawed arguments, I counter by laying out my arguments methodically as a contrast to show I actually can provide backup for what I say.

Not what I'd prefer, but I work with what I have.

there are some hyperbolic exaggerations, and also some pointed sarcasm, like the "12 step program" remark. As you yourself point out, that's people venting frustration. I don't think you need to take those kinds of remarks literally.

I agree for many it is frustration. Again, I understand, but people are still responsible for how they handle it. Bad handling has cost us getting more info about the text blade. As for the sarcasm, I have found there are two really effective ways people can try to shut down serious discussion (intentionally or not). One, of course, is simply to label the oppositions as "liars". It lets them easily move to accusing others who dare defend them on anything as liars too (obviously, if people say I work for WT and I don't, it can only mean they assume I'm lying). The other way, and often more effective, is to resort to ridicule.

Let's just say I don't approve and speak out on it. And I don't just do it with people I disagree with. On other forums, I will defend someone I strongly disagree with on issues if they are being treated that way.

I have no problem with your view that the intent may not really mean much after so many delays. That's fine as long as people are actually posting accordingly. I mean, if it doesn't matter anymore, then people shouldn't make the charge anyway.

Case in point -- has any testing unit other than Juli's shipped yet?

Nope, and based on their projections, they aren't supposed to until either late this week or a few days after that.

It is worth pointing out that, in spite of their terrible record, they have met their last 4 projections. Yeah, relatively minor things like when we'd know who was accepted for TREG and related things. Obviously none as important as at least shipping those. Still, when was the last time they met any projections 4 times in a row. The next one is the big one. I really hope it will be this week. If not, then within the "few days". Let's say by Tuesday. After that, I'm going to be annoyed - again. Mainly I'll want to have some detail on what the problem was they found. Not extreme detail, but something specific like, "We found a case where pressing two specific keys at the same time caused a time warp so we have to correct that".

 

[bobdobalina]

Well, WayTools have been telling us they'll ship TextBlade next month, then when that month is up, they say there was a delay but they'll ship next month, and so on, for over a year now. At this point, I don't think their intent matters so much. Whether or not they intended to lie, they did end up repeatedly promising to deliver then failed to deliver. If they are not lying, then they are grossly incompetent, and they have to face the consequences. One of the consequences of promising something then failing to keep your promise is that people might call you a liar. I do see your point that we don't know they actually intended to lie, so technically, we don't know that they are liars in fact. I myself wouldn't call them liars, until I have proof. But I'm not inclined to defend them if other people call them liars. They may not be intentionally lying, but they've certainly proved themselves untrustworthy, as in, when they say they'll ship something by next month, we can't trust them to do so.

Case in point -- has any testing unit other than Juli's shipped yet?

WayTools' typical language doesn't inspire confidence either, and it could be argued that it is written intentionally ambiguous. In their most recent shipping status update they wrote:

"We're optimistic we can start TREG shipments at the end of this week."

This comes across as disingenuous. If I were shipping a product that had a one year history of delays, I wouldn't announce another shipping date in this uncertain sounding tone. You're either going to ship or you're not.

If they're ready to ship they shouldn't need to add three qualifications to that statement. They don't say they will ship, but that they are *optimistic* that they will *can* *start* TREG shipments.

But these TREG units are just supposed to be a small first batch. Why would they need to *begin* shipping them? Just ship them all at once. Why the need for the big safety margin? If you're really ready to ship, but you end up shipping a day or two late, no one would care.

The weasel words on top of the delays are a big part of why people are becoming so upset and unreasonable. /before this turns into a rant.

 

[Night Spring]

Let's just say I don't approve and speak out on it. And I don't just do it with people I disagree with. On other forums, I will defend someone I strongly disagree with on issues if they are being treated that way.

I applaud you for sticking to your principles, but I don't think your way of sticking up for people who you perceive as being unfairly attacked is very effective. You can't convince people by so relentlessly analyzing every single point they bring up. You are so passionate you sound like you yourself are under attack, which I think is why people accuse you of being a WayTools staff member, or otherwise working for WayTools. You can't defend people from emotional attacks if you become emotional yourself. And attacking people for attacking others only escalates things. Try emphasizing your sympathy with everyone's frustrations more. Berating people for not being strictly logical isn't going to work.
[doublepost=1456294683][/doublepost]

WayTools' typical language doesn't inspire confidence either, and it could be argued that it is written intentionally ambiguous. In their most recent shipping status update they wrote:

"We're optimistic we can start TREG shipments at the end of this week."

Yes, very good point. It's not hard proof that they are intentionally lying, but they are definitely hedging so much, that it makes me suspicious.

I mean, DBK says we don't know that they are lying, which is technically true, but things aren't always black and white. I think there's quite a lot of evidence that strongly suggests that if they aren't outright lying, they are being very disingenuous.

 

[dabigkahuna]

And attacking people for attacking others only escalates things. Try emphasizing your sympathy with everyone's frustrations more.

Two points there.

1. The fear of escalating things simply means only one side is really heard. Because they will continue with their attacks. Sometimes they do this just to drive out any opposition. I know, because I've been places where, eventually they griped because they couldn't drive me out and couldn't understand why since it worked against others. Yes, they actually admitted to it!

2. Concerning sympathy - have you not seen the many comments where I have agreed that there is understandable frustration or that this and that thing they complain about WT is legitimate? Because if I do those things and it isn't even noticed, obviously being sympathetic just doesn't work. Only total capitulation, to the things I do object to, would be acceptable!
[doublepost=1456295376][/doublepost]

they are definitely hedging so much, that it makes me suspicious.

Well, okay, I get worried too so, to some small degree that might be described as being "suspicious". But I only view it as a possibility so don't make bad accusations on intent.

OTOH, isn't it legitimate to "hedge"? I mean, look at the options, especially after a long stretch of delays:

1. Say nothing at all until the day you ship. Uh, I don't think people would be happy about total silence for the past year!

2. Say what you hope will be accomplished but, knowing it has often not worked out in the past, allow for that in your statement. Which is what they did. Sure, with the past record it causes concern, but really, it's also probably the best choice they have.

 

[Night Spring]

1. The fear of escalating things simply means only one side is really heard.

No, I've had plenty of discussions where all sides were heard, without devolving into a shouting match.

Because if I do those things and it isn't even noticed, obviously being sympathetic just doesn't work. Only total capitulation, to the things I do object to, would be acceptable!

Another possibility is that you aren't being sympathetic enough. And total catipulation? Where are you getting this "me against them" mentality from?

OTOH, isn't it legitimate to "hedge"? I mean, look at the options, especially after a long stretch of delays:

1. Say nothing at all until the day you ship. Uh, I don't think people would be happy about total silence for the past year!

2. Say what you hope will be accomplished but, knowing it has often not worked out in the past, allow for that in your statement. Which is what they did. Sure, with the past record it causes concern, but really, it's also probably the best choice they have.

How about, if you are not sure about the timeframe, don't give a timeframe? No need to be silent, but no need to say "shipping next month" every other month, either. As you yourself said, they are very bad at communicating, and this is one of the ways they fail at that.

Also, if you really want to stop attacks against WayTools, it's a two way street. Not everyone who gets attacked is totally innocent. Sometimes they provoked the attack. Doesn't justify the attack, but the fact is, if you want to stop the attacks, sometimes the fastest way is to get the party being attacked to stop the behavior that's provoking the attacks. In this case, get WayTools to communicate better. You are willing to stand up to the Internet, good for you. But in this case, you need to stand up to WayTools, too.

 

[dabigkahuna]

How about, if you are not sure about the timeframe, don't give a timeframe? No need to be silent, but no need to say "shipping next month" every other month, either.

Which would be item 1. I don't mean they couldn't say anything on any matter - just meant they would say nothing at all about shipping. You know people would be constantly asking them for estimates. When they didn't get one, we'd pretty much have the same criticisms as now: "You just keep putting us off", etc. Which makes it no better.

As for the attacks, I know both sides and, again, I have repeatedly pointed to problems from WT too. Somehow I never get credit for it. In fact, I'm far more likely to get charged with only defending them that I am to have someone admit I criticize them quite often. This includes pointing out to them that communication needs improving. I've done it right on their forum, many times. I don't get rude about it so maybe to some people it doesn't count. Go figure.

 

[Rolanbek]

As for the attacks, I know both sides and, again, I have repeatedly pointed to problems from WT too. Somehow I never get credit for it. In fact, I'm far more likely to get charged with only defending them that I am to have someone admit I criticize them quite often. This includes pointing out to them that communication needs improving. I've done it right on their forum, many times. I don't get rude about it so maybe to some people it doesn't count. Go figure.

Have you considered that by cross posting your arguments here and on WT that your constant, reflex rebuttal generates more anger?

I think it would be fair to say that you like to have a reasoned argument. Have you considered why your Like to post ratio on WT is so low? It is not like people can "unlike" what people on Discourse, you in fact simply do not write posts that many people like.

Here for example; you are arguing with MR users on an MR discussion thread Long after MR made the decision to drop coverage. What is to be gained here?

I notice also that you seem to avoid quoting me when you post. For you own sake be careful, as WT might construe that as you being me.

I would also, if you are able, Like you to examine WT claims of conspiracy with the same care as you look at their critics. It seems one sided not to examine there "claims" as well.

R

 

[dabigkahuna]

Have you considered that by cross posting your arguments here and on WT that your constant, reflex rebuttal generates more anger?

I consider that people were posting angry stuff before I ever posted anywhere. I don't think it is a good counter argument to essentially take a position that is if someone objects, gee, it may get worse!

Have you considered why your Like to post ratio on WT is so low?

I don't post to be loved. This isn't high school where the quarterback gets the votes for class president because he's most popular. BTW, I've seen this argument before where someone on WT site started comparing our relative posts and how they had a much higher percentage of "likes" and this somehow proved that her posts were better. You know what is funny about that? That they attacked WT yet WT has an extremely high ratio of likes to posts!

I notice also that you seem to avoid quoting me when you post. For you own sake be careful, as WT might construe that as you being me.

???

I would also, if you are able, Like you to examine WT claims of conspiracy with the same care as you look at their critics.

Well, that's the second time, at least, today that I've been asked to apply the same standards to WT. And, as I said to the other person, I do. But, until yesterday, they had not brought up the conspiracy thing again so no reason to keep talking about it! But as it happens, I did address it yesterday too. In that case I happened to do it in a private message, hoping it was more likely to be noticed. Actually, I criticized four items they said. But for this particular one, I made exactly the same point I've made to others who, you no doubt remember, accused me of working for WT.

Well, almost the same. In that case, I happen to know absolutely that I don't work for WT - thus it was an absolute fact that they were making it up. I don't know if WT has some information to support their conspiracy claims, but I did tell them that if they aren't going to produce it, then they shouldn't say it.

 

[Rolanbek]

I consider that people were posting angry stuff before I ever posted anywhere. I don't think it is a good counter argument to essentially take a position that is if someone objects, gee, it may get worse!

Yes but it wasn't until you had been here that the tone and obvious frustration increased. Compare (and for the sake of bandwidth do it in your head) the first page of comments with the fourth.

I don't post to be loved. This isn't high school where the quarterback gets the votes for class president because he's most popular. BTW, I've seen this argument before where someone on WT site started comparing our relative posts and how they had a much higher percentage of "likes" and this somehow proved that her posts were better. You know what is funny about that? That they attacked WT yet WT has an extremely high ratio of likes to posts!

I can see adulation is not your goal, and that is not the argument. I am aware of where we are and don't need a sports analogy to describe it, so you could probably save yourself some effort on those.

Other peoples arguments are not my arguments, I was pointing out that you do not post much that is liked, and your rebuttals generate more rebuttals.

I was posting funny nonsense teasing WT for their lack of communication. Of course that is going to mesh with the mood, but it is irrelevant.

If someone has a problem with the site owner having the most likes on their forum, there is not much that can be done for that. Confirmation bias applied to sample selection just is.

???

Don't do that, we, I mean I do that.

Well, that's the second time, at least, today that I've been asked to apply the same standards to WT. And, as I said to the other person, I do. But, until yesterday, they had not brought up the conspiracy thing again so no reason to keep talking about it! But as it happens, I did address it yesterday too. In that case I happened to do it in a private message, hoping it was more likely to be noticed. Actually, I criticized four items they said. But for this particular one, I made exactly the same point I've made to others who, you no doubt remember, accused me of working for WT.

There is every reason to comment further. It is just allowing them and other forum users to smear people who have no way to defend themselves. it isn't the first time that have said it, and it colours much of their communication.

With regard to your situation
What others see is a voluminous poster, who attacks their opinions, sides with a company that won't respond, who appears to have been rewarded with a Queue jump to the front of the line. You even exported that image here.

You may not care about being loved, but every post seem to reinforce their opinion. As you said yourself on WT "So don't do things that make you fit the description."

Judging from the quantity of posts, you have ample time to rehabilitate this image, if only to reduce the amount of scrolling required to get to other peoples opinion.

Well, almost the same. In that case, I happen to know absolutely that I don't work for WT - thus it was an absolute fact that they were making it up. I don't know if WT has some information to support their conspiracy claims, but I did tell them that if they aren't going to produce it, then they shouldn't say it.

They probably couldn't produce it as it would be user data which would be irresponsible. The point is in the same way you know you aren't a WT employee, I and the others know we aren't duplicates, or conspiring, or working for a competitor.

 

[dabigkahuna]

your rebuttals generate more rebuttals

A rebuttal makes actual counter arguments. I get some rebuttals from Night Spring. At the moment I'm getting that from you as well. Which is fine. Even if I disagree with them, I can then explain why because there is some substance there.

They probably couldn't produce it as it would be user data which would be irresponsible.

Which is why I told them they shouldn't say such things. I'm AGREEING with you.

I just don't get this. So I'm going back and deleting most of what I wrote (you should like shorter posts) to focus on this basic problem. Which is a shame because all of it was really brilliant!

Why are you questioning what I did in this matter when I addressed it WHEN IT HAPPENED and side with YOU??? I didn't address it when it WASN'T happening. Why should I?

I post agreement with the critics on a number of things - including this one. Yet I'm viewed as always siding with WT.

And when the critics get mad because I dare challenge what they say, I'm supposed to "understand" and realize some of their complaints are legit - yet I already do that. But what is the next suggestion? That I have to do more!

Sorry, but if people aren't going to pay attention and just get mad anyway, that's their problem. It probably explains why they say the things I object to in the first place.

 

[Rolanbek]

A rebuttal makes actual counter arguments. I get some rebuttals from Night Spring. At the moment I'm getting that from you as well. Which is fine. Even if I disagree with them, I can then explain why because there is some substance there.

Yes but you make the same rebuttal to the same argument from different people. It is inefficient. Better to direct them to you earlier argument.

I'm AGREEING with you.

I know. We don't want to do that much, because WT will get suspicious.

I just don't get this. So I'm going back and deleting most of what I wrote (you should like shorter posts) to focus on this basic problem. Which is a shame because all of it was really brilliant!

You are putting words in my mouth. Which is naughty. If you are proud of your work you should keep it in place.

Why are you questioning what I did in this matter when I addressed it WHEN IT HAPPENED and side with YOU??? I didn't address it when it WASN'T happening. Why should I?

Because I can question, by examining the answers we learn. For example you argue much in public, and at length. But on this issue in private. That is a reasonable question.

I post agreement with the critics on a number of things - including this one. Yet I'm viewed as always siding with WT.

Outside of the 9th floor, you are their greatest proponent, this is evidenced by your need to rebut what you consider to be unfair criticism

And when the critics get mad because I dare challenge what they say, I'm supposed to "understand" and realize some of their complaints are legit - yet I already do that. But what is the next suggestion? That I have to do more!

Critics are going to get mad, that is life. I did not ask you to agree, I asked you to understand. To empathise with Their point of view not hold it.

Then I asked you to use some of you time to direct your analysis elsewhere, to look at things other than the same tired "he said, She said" bickering that the forum had become. I chose a direction which may turn to your benefit, to rehabilitate you he the eyes of your critics.

You need a debate like a fish needs water, go to it, what possible harm could it do?

Sorry, but if people aren't going to pay attention and just get mad anyway, that's their problem. It probably explains why they say the things I object to in the first place.

We live in a world of shallow thought, and distracting opprobrium... pew pew.. look! Shiny.

 

[Night Spring]

But as it happens, I did address it yesterday too. In that case I happened to do it in a private message, hoping it was more likely to be noticed.

If you did it in private message, we don't know that it happened. So from where we are sitting, you've just made one sided arguments defending WayTools.
[doublepost=1456322982][/doublepost]

Yes but it wasn't until you had been here that the tone and obvious frustration increased. Compare (and for the sake of bandwidth do it in your head) the first page of comments with the fourth.

So seeing this suggestion made me go back and reread the first page of this thread, and seeing DBK's first posts, which maybe I hadn't paid much attention to when they were first posted, that goes beyond defending WayTools from attack, IMO. DBK is doing the PR work that WayTools should be doing themselves. Jumping in to defend people from unfounded allegations, I understand, even if as in this case, they brought it on themselves. But why is DBK doing PR for WT? This goes way beyond pointing out that we don't know for a fact that they lied.

 

[Rolanbek]

If you did it in private message, we don't know that it happened. So from where we are sitting, you've just made one sided arguments defending WayTools.

Image and perception do seem to have modified peoples reactions.

So seeing this suggestion made me go back and reread the first page of this thread, and seeing DBK's first posts, which maybe I hadn't paid much attention to when they were first posted, that goes beyond defending WayTools from attack, IMO. DBK is doing the PR work that WayTools should be doing themselves. Jumping in to defend people from unfounded allegations, I understand, even if as in this case, they brought it on themselves. But why is DBK doing PR for WT? This goes way beyond pointing out that we don't know for a fact that they lied.

Can you prove he is engaged to do PR for WT? I doubt there is an arrangement, and it does seem unfair to accuse him of that without reason. I understand that is your opinion and I am sure the DBK can look after himself if you care to take it up with him.

Granted he is spirited in exploding badly thought out arguments, but it is hardly PR.

A question which is of more merit is: "Why did WT not leap to the defence of JC?"

further: "Why leave their greatest advocates exposed, outnumbered and alone?" (DBK and JC)

Disparaging DBK for standing alone against the torrent of ill feeling seems, somehow shoddy. I would say that his containment of the argument was suboptimal, but perhaps he didn't feel it was his job to, or was not experienced in the nuances of defusing angry posting. These is not a failings.

If you are angry with WT, be angry with WT. But perhaps DBK should be a little angry with them as well.

Just pointing out that we get less selective with our targets the greater our rage is.

 

[Night Spring]

Can you prove he is engaged to do PR for WT? I doubt there is an arrangement, and it does seem unfair to accuse him of that without reason. I understand that is your opinion and I am sure the DBK can look after himself if you care to take it up with

Hey, I'm not accusing him of working for WayTools, sorry if I gave that impression. I'm just asking what his motivation is for doing their PR for them. He said he was defending them because he doesn't like seeing people attacked. But IMO he's doing much more than just defending them from attacks, so I was curious why he was doing that.

The following are the posts where I felt like DBK was doing PR for WayTools. And by that I'm not saying he has an arrangement with WayTools to do PR for them, just that he's doing what WayTools PR department should be doing, if they had a functional PR department.
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...-group-users-next-week.1957232/#post-22588451
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...-group-users-next-week.1957232/#post-22588575

 

[Rolanbek]

Hey, I'm not accusing him of working for WayTools, sorry if I gave that impression. I'm just asking what his motivation is for doing their PR for them. He said he was defending them because he doesn't like seeing people attacked. But IMO he's doing much more than just defending them from attacks, so I was curious why he was doing that.

He has zeal, I grant you.

It is probably a good illustration of what I was saying to DBK, perception of his actions differs across viewpoints.

And by that I'm not saying he has an arrangement with WayTools to do PR for them, just that he's doing what WayTools PR department should be doing, if they had a functional PR department.

That is a fair point, Where were WT during all of this? They didn't seem to defend their own product, or their reviewers.

I wonder how he feels about WT not apologising for their part in this whole thing to JC?

R