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lordofthereef

macrumors G5
Nov 29, 2011
13,161
3,720
Boston, MA
As exciting as this is, my area stillhas some 90's era machines (the ones that don't pull in your entire card and still take envelopes for deposits). I wonder what, if anything, this actually means for a rollout. I don't often carry cash, but I do hit up farmer's markets usually weekly and this would be convenient, particularly with a two year old in my arms.
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ATMs? Who even uses cash anymore? They should focus on having all transactions done through the phone.
Quite a few people. Believe it or not there are even stores that take only cash.
 
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tmiw

macrumors 68030
Jun 26, 2007
2,517
604
San Diego, CA
Because of Visa and MasterCard's current rules, we might still have to enter the debit card's PIN when using NFC at ATMs. Can anyone comment as to whether those rules actually changed?
 

lordofthereef

macrumors G5
Nov 29, 2011
13,161
3,720
Boston, MA
How about bringing Pay to Target? Is that so difficult?
I imagine red card is what's holding them back.
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NICE! Now if city Parking Meters can get on-board with NFC technology, we'd be SET!
Boston just rolled out an app whereby you pay for parking through your phone. It's rather excellent particularly when a lot of meters take quarters only.
 

Jomasjc

macrumors newbie
Oct 7, 2013
26
2
Brisbane, Australia
Some Australian banks have had "cardless cash" at ATM's for over a year now... No wonder Australia doesn't have Apple Pay yet :'( Unfortunately there's zero incentive for banks to implement Apple Pay here... One day hopefully...
 

tmiw

macrumors 68030
Jun 26, 2007
2,517
604
San Diego, CA
I imagine red card is what's holding them back.

Apple Pay supports store cards now though. My feeling is that Target doesn't want to support it in-store at all. And why would they when they can a) collect much more/better data from in-app use/their own mobile payment app and b) better encourage use of REDcard over a normal credit or debit card (thus reducing their costs) by forcing the use of the physical card?
 

Karma*Police

macrumors 68030
Jul 15, 2012
2,514
2,850

lordofthereef

macrumors G5
Nov 29, 2011
13,161
3,720
Boston, MA
Apple Pay supports store cards now though. My feeling is that Target doesn't want to support it in-store at all. And why would they when they can a) collect much more/better data from in-app use/their own mobile payment app and b) better encourage use of REDcard over a normal credit or debit card (thus reducing their costs) by forcing the use of the physical card?
Does it not still require a credit card logo?
 

mantan

macrumors 68000
Nov 2, 2009
1,743
1,041
DFW
How about bringing Pay to Target? Is that so difficult?

No, it's not difficult. It's just a business decision Target has chosen. Target is still part of the Merchant Consumer Exchange and the push to use the CurrentC app.

IIRC, it's still being tested in Columbus. Most think the whole MCX/Current concept is DOA - from QR codes, to being linked directly to your bank account to data mining/privacy concerns. But as long as Target is a part of that effort, I don't see them embracing Apple Pay.
 

tmiw

macrumors 68030
Jun 26, 2007
2,517
604
San Diego, CA
No, it's not difficult. It's just a business decision Target has chosen. Target is still part of the Merchant Consumer Exchange and the push to use the CurrentC app.

IIRC, it's still being tested in Columbus. Most think the whole MCX/Current concept is DOA - from QR codes, to being linked directly to your bank account to data mining/privacy concerns. But as long as Target is a part of that effort, I don't see them embracing Apple Pay.

A store-branded payment app isn't DOA, IMO, especially if there are rewards that make using it worthwhile over a regular card. Starbucks' app for instance is responsible for something like 30% of transactions in-store now. The key is to not provide a horrible user experience (e.g. allow adding a CurrentC "card" to Wallet as a pass and have it automatically appear on the lock screen at a participating store).

That said, MCX strikes me as a group that isn't really up to date with technology so they probably won't take full advantage of the iOS integration available to them.
 

mantan

macrumors 68000
Nov 2, 2009
1,743
1,041
DFW
A store-branded payment app isn't DOA, IMO, especially if there are rewards that make using it worthwhile over a regular card. Starbucks' app for instance is responsible for something like 30% of transactions in-store now. The key is to not provide a horrible user experience (e.g. allow adding a CurrentC "card" to Wallet as a pass and have it automatically appear on the lock screen at a participating store).

That said, MCX strikes me as a group that isn't really up to date with technology so they probably won't take full advantage of the iOS integration available to them.

A store branded payment app would be fine. But pushing it through the CurrentC App which is designed to tie directly to a consumers checking account with none of the protections of a debit/credit card would be DOA for sure.

That and pushing QR codes is what makes it DOA.

At this point they really don't feel any pressure on it. While Apple Pay is a nice feature, it's availability is so limited that I don't think it impacts consumer shopping habits. But as NFC payments pick up steam, the pressure may build. I agree that interface is the key. The great benefit of AP is really security. But customers are more swayed by convenience. The old 'swipe' method was a lot of times just as fast as using Apple Pay. But the new C&P interface is so clunky, that AP becomes a lot more appealing.

But I think it'll need to be more widespread before consumers make a big push for it. I'd be interested to see what the usage rates are for AP out of enabled devices. I love it. But to be honest, I often forget about it until I'm halfway through the payment process. My wife shops a LOT, and used it exactly one time. It seems like Americans have been slower to embrace NFC than the rest of the world.
 

konqerror

macrumors 68020
Dec 31, 2013
2,298
3,700
I noticed this from BofA in October. They installed a new NCR ATM and it had a small panel by the card reader with the contactless logo. Didn't work though.
 

tmiw

macrumors 68030
Jun 26, 2007
2,517
604
San Diego, CA
A store branded payment app would be fine. But pushing it through the CurrentC App which is designed to tie directly to a consumers checking account with none of the protections of a debit/credit card would be DOA for sure.

That and pushing QR codes is what makes it DOA.

At this point they really don't feel any pressure on it. While Apple Pay is a nice feature, it's availability is so limited that I don't think it impacts consumer shopping habits. But as NFC payments pick up steam, the pressure may build. I agree that interface is the key. The great benefit of AP is really security. But customers are more swayed by convenience. The old 'swipe' method was a lot of times just as fast as using Apple Pay. But the new C&P interface is so clunky, that AP becomes a lot more appealing.

But I think it'll need to be more widespread before consumers make a big push for it. I'd be interested to see what the usage rates are for AP out of enabled devices. I love it. But to be honest, I often forget about it until I'm halfway through the payment process. My wife shops a LOT, and used it exactly one time. It seems like Americans have been slower to embrace NFC than the rest of the world.

I think a lot of the "clunkiness" issues with chip have to do with the learning curve involved. It doesn't help that banks did very little to prepare people and that merchant acceptance is still low four months into the transition. For what it's worth chip is actually pretty fast at Walgreens, and if other retailers optimize their implementations such that they're about as fast convenience won't be a reason for using Apple Pay in-store. Without some sort of reward most people simply won't use NFC if a physical card isn't "that" inconvenient.

I'm not sure security is that big of a draw for Americans either. 0% liability has effectively ensured that people don't care about breaches much. Sure it's a pain to change auto-billing after a breach, but Visa and MasterCard have a solution that automates the process. Heck, people even continued to use their cards at Target after their breach.

What will be a massive improvement in the shopping experience are things like mobile ordering and mobile checkout. Several companies are already doing the former (Panera, Starbucks) and Apple's doing the latter (with more stores likely coming soon). Apple Pay in that context will let people pay with cards in those apps without having to manually enter card info, not to mention the large time savings from not having to wait in lines. If adopted by enough people, it also means that retailers don't have to hire as many employees at their stores, which would be a significant cost savings.

While NFC acceptance would be nice, IMO it's not the future. I wouldn't be surprised if most stores and customers go the in-app route instead of NFC once the dust settles. I also wouldn't be surprised if in-app is basically forced thanks to most stores not enabling NFC (due to data collection and interchange fee concerns).

(As for NFC, we actually did try it before about a decade ago. Unfortunately it was such a disaster that banks had to remove the functionality altogether. Even now a fair number of them have FAQ entries that say in effect "your new card can't be tapped" because people were assuming that their new cards were coming with that feature (despite their bank never having offered such a card before). The only reason NFC is even being discussed now is due to Apple Pay, especially because the NFC functionality is only "on" when the customer demands it. I totally believe that NFC would be enabled nowhere and merchants would have chosen non-NFC capable hardware had Apple not brought that form of payment into the public consciousness.)
 

Waxhead138

macrumors 6502
May 18, 2012
473
546
And it begins....we've gone from gold to legal tender/debt to debit cards equipped with chips and now to a fingerprint NFC tender ... and later something else will replace that, but electronic funds will win

The day you can't see real currency is the day we have a problem. I think a truly cashless society will never happen...if for no other reason that people will still want accessibility to hard currency at least for peace of mind. Same applies to those saying we are moving toward a paperless society....the people that thought 20 years ago we'd be there now.....that will never 100% happen due to the existence of lawyers and the idea of what is considered legal in general.

I think the same applies to hard cash. Those are two areas that, even if the amount of times you see hard currency or a paper contract reduce, will still keep some degree of tangibility that people can easily access. They have too or people won't have any faith in them, and if you don't have faith in your legal system or your currency, society as we know it crumbles.

Man this thread could go PRSI quick lol.
 

ditzy

macrumors 68000
Sep 28, 2007
1,719
180
And it begins....we've gone from gold to legal tender/debt to debit cards equipped with chips and now to a fingerprint NFC tender ... and later something else will replace that, but electronic funds will win
Surely you should be in favour of this. As this is a way to get cash with your phone. At the moment Apple Pay takes cash out of the equation.
 

g3nw1

macrumors newbie
Aug 15, 2015
24
18
London
I know it is not exactly the same thing but NatWest in the UK has had something more or less like this to enable getting money from ATM without using a card, I personally use it all the time from my Apple Watch when I need cash. - 250 pounds daily limit

What is Get Cash and how do I use it?
Get Cash is a function on our Mobile Banking app that lets you withdraw money quickly without using your bank card. It's great for those times, when you pop out during your lunch hour, but don't have cash on you.

How does it work?


    • From the 'Get Cash' option within the Mobile Banking app, choose the amount of cash that you would like to withdraw
    • We then provide you with a secure cash code that will be valid for 3 hours (you can use the code yourself or use the option to text it to a friend or family member)
    • Then visit any NatWest or Tesco cash machine (find the nearest one using the 'near me' option in the app)
    • When at the cash machine, press the 'Enter' key and then follow the on screen prompts to get your cash
If the code expires, the funds will re-credit your account within 24 hours.

  • Available for iPhone, Apple Watch, Android, Blackberry and Windows devices,
 
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Gudi

Suspended
May 3, 2013
4,590
3,264
Berlin, Berlin

W E L L S · F A R G O

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retirement plan
 
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arggg14

macrumors 6502a
Dec 30, 2014
699
1,825
Good move forward for Apple Pay. Slowly but surely it will get there as the new standard.
 

konqerror

macrumors 68020
Dec 31, 2013
2,298
3,700
Same applies to those saying we are moving toward a paperless society....the people that thought 20 years ago we'd be there now.....that will never 100% happen due to the existence of lawyers and the idea of what is considered legal in general.

Bad comparison. We are paperless, just not the way you think. The paper we use is worth nothing anymore. Somebody at work signs a contract or gets an order. It's imaged into a file. If somebody needs it on paper, they print out a copy. When they're done with the copy, it goes into the trash. Same thing happened to the checks with Check 21, the image, not the paper, holds the legal power.

It's been like this for decades. Go check your property deeds for your house or get your birth certificate. They've been microfilmed for at least 50 years.

So we use more paper, but that paper holds little value in itself.
 

SlipperySlop

Suspended
Sep 14, 2015
317
543
Sounds great, until the first time it accidentally cleans out someone's bank account.
Yup. There's a high chance of that happening. That's why they are going forward with this. And apple pay should be quashed because of the 1 in a trillion chance of something happening as you suggest.
Does anyone actually use logic and common sense around here?
 
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joueboy

macrumors 68000
Jul 3, 2008
1,576
1,545
Nothing like a little unwarranted FUD to round out your day. Apple Pay would be used for dipping your virtual ATM card, and then the screen prompts would take over, just like any other ATM transaction.

This would destroy the skimming slime bags.
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Seriously? The tech to make this happen is not easy to implement. Plus, Wells Fargo has over 12,500 ATMs in the US.

I'm sure that there will be no money changing hands on this implementation. Wells Fargo will be getting a large problem fixed from a security standpoint (no more skimming at their ATMs). And Apple will be getting another reason to get people to buy iPhones.
Apple made this thing supposedly easy for the banks to adopt and implement it. If you look at the list some of the banks that supports Apple Pay are actually small and local banks. We're talking Chase and Bank of America here obviously they're looking for some agenda before adopting the technology. More like lower fees or commission from sales which I can only assume. For a multi-billion dollar banking company it shouldn't be that hard if they decide to adopt the technology.
 
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