What are the legitimate use cases for Retina?

[punchwalk]

What a ridiculous comment.

Browsing the web requires you to mostly read text. You should also tell all those office workers, writers, students, professionals etc.. who use word processors that they should be typing away on an iPad instead.

You're lumping several use cases together in your response. "Browsing the web" is a singular use case. If that's all a person wants to do, a tablet would be a perfectly sufficient (and much more affordable) way of addressing that specific need.

Writers, on the other hand, would have a use case of word processing or publishing. I'll be the first to agree that the tablet form factor generally isn't the right device for those use cases. Those people need something with a keyboard. But do they get a benefit from the higher resolution when, for most of their apps, it doesn't translate to more usable space? A writer, for example, would need to double his or her font size to actually be able to read what they're writing in native 2880x1800 resolution on a 15" screen.

I guess what I'm really getting at is that it seems like for text-based purposes, the higher resolution is only a means of making textual elements appear smoother, but not to actually increase the usefulness of applications that work with text.

 

[iFanboy]

You're lumping several use cases together in your response. "Browsing the web" is a singular use case. If that's all a person wants to do, a tablet would be a perfectly sufficient (and much more affordable) way of addressing that specific need.

Writers, on the other hand, would have a use case of word processing or publishing. I'll be the first to agree that the tablet form factor generally isn't the right device for those use cases. Those people need something with a keyboard. But do they get a benefit from the higher resolution when, for most of their apps, it doesn't translate to more usable space? A writer, for example, would need to double his or her font size to actually be able to read what they're writing in native 2880x1800 resolution on a 15" screen.

I guess what I'm really getting at is that it seems like for text-based purposes, the higher resolution is only a means of making textual elements appear smoother, but not to actually increase the usefulness of applications that work with text.

OP, you said:-

I say that if you're using your MBP mostly to read text then you should probably be using something like an iPad instead.

As a response to your question as to "what are the legitimate use cases for retina?"

I pointed out that the whole interaction with a computer is "to read text".

I guess what I'm really getting at is that it seems like for text-based purposes, the higher resolution is only a means of making textual elements appear smoother, but not to actually increase the usefulness of applications that work with text.

That's a really nebulous point.

If you are talking about text only, yes the retina display makes them much sharper and easier to read, which for many people is a huge plus for a variety of reasons. Some even medical, such as lessening the effects of eye strain.

Your comment about "not to actually increase the usefulness of applications that work with text" is a really random comment. We're talking about a screen upgrade that makes things MUCH clearer. There are many reasons that can "increase the usefulness of applications that work with text".

For some people that can even mean the difference of not getting headaches when typing long documents in word for instance.

 

[Seamaster]

The question should be easily answered by anyone who spends as much time as we do on text-based forums like this one.

 

[Stetrain]

=I'll give a more thorough example: As a software developer, I use IDEs like Visual Studio to develop and maintain software. Those IDEs have code windows that use something in the neighborhood of 10pt font. This works OK on non-Retina resolutions, but 10pt font displayed at NATIVE 2880x1800 resolution on a 15" screen would be too small for most people to read. Perhaps the font would look smoother on scaled 1440x900 on a Retina, but I'd consider that a subtle aesthetic benefit that doesn't do much to increase my productivity.

There are two things that you can do with the Retina MBP to make code work more productive:

1) Use the default "looks like 1440x900" setting, but lower the font size since it should stay sharp and readable at smaller sizes.

2) Use the "looks like 1680x1050" or "looks like 1920x1200" modes, which scales everything to give you the equivalent screen real estate of a 1680x1050 or 1920x1200 display. Then, besides smaller text that's still readable, the UI elements of your apps will also be smaller. You might be able to comfortably use two windows side by side when it would have been a bit cramped on a native 1440x900 display.

 

[cruggles]

My work requires that I read a LOT of PDF files, that have text sized fairly small as they are designed to be printed on A4 paper and read.

I currently run a Hi-Res 15" anti-glare screen which was the best I could get at the time.

I still CAN'T put two of those A4 PDF pages side by side on my screen and read them. It's not because my eye-sight is bad, it's because there isn't enough pixels on the screen to render the text sharply enough.

Consequently, I have to constantly zoom and pan. This is very fatiguing.

I am hoping that a Retina screen will make this possible. After all, if I print the pages I can read them quite well from the same distance that I sit from the screen.

Of course, Acrobat or Preview will have to be updated I assume before this comes to fruition.

 

[Stetrain]

Of course, Acrobat or Preview will have to be updated I assume before this comes to fruition.

It should work great for that. Preview should be fully retina ready since it's a built in app.

 

[strausd]

oh boy thats true!! Thats why you see all those 3D ads out there for the huge amount of 3D TVs out there. yippee!

That shows you do not understand what is going on.

3D TVs never really caught on. Thus making your statement "huge amount of 3D TVs out there" completely false.

Also making 3D advertisements are a lot more involved. Uploading a higher resolution image to a website? Not so much.

Just more proof that you are indeed wrong.

 

[punchwalk]

There are two things that you can do with the Retina MBP to make code work more productive:

1) Use the default "looks like 1440x900" setting, but lower the font size since it should stay sharp and readable at smaller sizes.

2) Use the "looks like 1680x1050" or "looks like 1920x1200" modes, which scales everything to give you the equivalent screen real estate of a 1680x1050 or 1920x1200 display. Then, besides smaller text that's still readable, the UI elements of your apps will also be smaller. You might be able to comfortably use two windows side by side when it would have been a bit cramped on a native 1440x900 display.

I have a 1680x1050 native display and the only complaints I have about readability and eye strain are attributed to glare (I chose not to get the AG display, a choice I wouldn't repeat given the option to do it all over again). I've had a 1920x1200 17" in the past and I can't imagine that resolution being easy to read, Retina display or not, on a 15" display.

 

[punchwalk]

OP, you said:-



As a response to your question as to "what are the legitimate use cases for retina?"

I pointed out that the whole interaction with a computer is "to read text".



That's a really nebulous point.

If you are talking about text only, yes the retina display makes them much sharper and easier to read, which for many people is a huge plus for a variety of reasons. Some even medical, such as lessening the effects of eye strain.

Your comment about "not to actually increase the usefulness of applications that work with text" is a really random comment. We're talking about a screen upgrade that makes things MUCH clearer. There are many reasons that can "increase the usefulness of applications that work with text".

For some people that can even mean the difference of not getting headaches when typing long documents in word for instance.

And I would debate whether text on the Retinas is really "MUCH clearer." The only instances where this seems like it would certainly be true is when the source material's resolution exceeds "traditional" MBP resolutions. There are certainly plenty of cases where this is true but even more when it isn't. I saw the Retina MBP in my local Apple store and played around in Safari for a good 10-15 minutes and I just didn't feel like what I was looking at was that much better. Sure, there's a marginal difference, but it's not game-changing by any means.

As far as the whole eye strain issue, I think the jury is still out. Most eye strain complaints I've heard about with prior MBPs are attributed to glare -- which by all accounts to date is only fractionally reduced by the RMBP -- or come from people who openly admit that their eyesight isn't great.

I don't really agree with your statement that my point is nebulous. I think a big part of the disconnect is that we're defining the terms "usefulness" and "usability" in different ways. And I see from your sig that you've purchased an RMBP so of course you're going to defend that position. Fact is, I was never attacking the RMBP to begin with; I just wanted to get a feel for how other people felt it would be a game-changer for their less trivial tasks.

 

[Lagmonster]

I have only spent ~20 mins looking at the demo machine but the text looked amazing. I can't even look at my iPad2 after moving to the iPad3. The text alone is enough for me. Extra resolution another obvious bonus.

 

[powsucks]

I've seen the MBPR screen and yes, the text is very nice but I use my laptop in class, on the train or on the sofa for writing papers, watching the odd film, listening the music, checking the internet etc I then hook it up to the IPS monitor on my desk for the rest of the time.

I bet a lot of the people buying this laptop won't make full use of the screen's capabilities. Lot's of people like to think they need it for photohop, film editing etc (many people do) but some are just kidding themselves. they wan't the latest cool bit of tech, which is fine, but don't try to say you need it!

many people buying it won't need the speed or power, but thats another matter.

 

[Seamaster]

many people buying it won't need the speed or power, but thats another matter.

I need neither, but I'm buying one for longevity's sake — the rMBP is the most future-proof Mac you can buy today.

 

[BFW122083]

It's the same reason why people moved to the new iPad. It's just more enjoyable to use and look at. People survived using photoshop before without it, but it just makes it more enjoyable.

I spent about an hour using CS6 last night on mine and the temp barely rose and the fans didn't come on. Besides the screen, the other upgrades are sweet too.

 

[ixodes]

What will a Retina MBP allow you to do better than a non-Retina would?

Nothing.

My MBP_R is a nice machine, but when I place it side by side next to my 2011 15" hi-res anti-glare MBP, I must say it's not that much better.

It depends on what you are viewing, for video & still photography the difference is useful, under other usage scenarios not so much. I wasn't that surprised since I know better than to believe Apple's exaggerated claims. They've built their business as master marketeers & it shows.

Don't get me wrong, it's a nice computer. But unlike others I don't attach my emotions to any product. It's just a new model that in a year or so will be just another Mac.

My main complaint is after I bought it, I learned the truth. iFixit published a report with pictures revealing it's appliance like disposable construction. Batteries and other components glued in place, nothing user upgradable, and worse, only partially recyclable.

Despite all the bragging Apple did last year about being "Green" there's no talk of that, when discussing this container of tightly packed parts.

If you have no concern for the environment, and don't plan to keep it once the warranty expires you'll be just fine.

Remember it doesn't use a conventional display assembly like all other brands. Instead it's built into the lid, so should it fail, the entire top half of the computer must be replaced. A repair that's likely to be obscenely expensive. That's just one of many potential issues if one plans on long term ownership.

Otherwise you may find it ideal.

 

[Rajpdx]

It strikes me that this thread is just a way to pick an argument with people who like the new machine.

You could ask the same question in relation to macs in general v pcs - when push comes to shove most of what people do on a mac can be done on pcs.

You could also make the argument that the vast majority of what people do on macs the vast majority of the time could be done on an old macbook costing a few hundred dollars.

I see posts like that pretty much when Apple release any product.

The OPs original reply when someone cited text clarity as a reason for buying the machine was pretty illustrative of the point I'm making

"To #1 I say that if you're using your MBP mostly to read text then you should probably be using something like an iPad instead."

So with an iPad, someone working on multiple documents at the same time can open multiple windows, highlight, annotate, comment and save, look up references online, retrieve more documents, cut and paste between documents, open up a document in Windows, swipe between spaces on the mac and copy text between Windows and the Mac versions of Office as well as running text searches and taking screenshots and putting them into documents?

Because I do that quite frequently on a 1920 x 1200 17inch antiglare machine. I took a look at the new RMBP and found the readability of the text on a document I used specifically as a test outstanding - it blew away the quality on a 15" 1650 and on my 17" 1920. I wish it hadn't but it did. Every text doc that I used looked considerably better on the RMBP than on the 17".

Of course your mileage might vary.

I can understand asking people why they want the new machine and then deciding that as far as reading text is concerned you would use an iPad, but to ask a question and then to start arguing with people's rationale is indicative of a desire to argue rather than learn.

 

[JohnDoe98]

My work requires that I read a LOT of PDF files, that have text sized fairly small as they are designed to be printed on A4 paper and read.

I currently run a Hi-Res 15" anti-glare screen which was the best I could get at the time.

I still CAN'T put two of those A4 PDF pages side by side on my screen and read them. It's not because my eye-sight is bad, it's because there isn't enough pixels on the screen to render the text sharply enough.

Consequently, I have to constantly zoom and pan. This is very fatiguing.

I am hoping that a Retina screen will make this possible. After all, if I print the pages I can read them quite well from the same distance that I sit from the screen.

Of course, Acrobat or Preview will have to be updated I assume before this comes to fruition.

Exactly the same for me, except that I don't have a hi-res 15". Also, being able to write with two documents side by side is going to be amazing (if I can do that).

 

[Dangerous Theory]

Nothing.

My MBP_R is a nice machine, but when I place it side by side next to my 2011 15" hi-res anti-glare MBP, I must say it's not that much better.

It depends on what you are viewing, for video & still photography the difference is useful, under other usage scenarios not so much. I wasn't that surprised since I know better than to believe Apple's exaggerated claims. They've built their business as master marketeers & it shows.

Don't get me wrong, it's a nice computer. But unlike others I don't attach my emotions to any product. It's just a new model that in a year or so will be just another Mac.

My main complaint is after I bought it, I learned the truth. iFixit published a report with pictures revealing it's appliance like disposable construction. Batteries and other components glued in place, nothing user upgradable, and worse, only partially recyclable.

Despite all the bragging Apple did last year about being "Green" there's no talk of that, when discussing this container of tightly packed parts.

If you have no concern for the environment, and don't plan to keep it once the warranty expires you'll be just fine.

Remember it doesn't use a conventional display assembly like all other brands. Instead it's built into the lid, so should it fail, the entire top half of the computer must be replaced. A repair that's likely to be obscenely expensive. That's just one of many potential issues if one plans on long term ownership.

Otherwise you may find it ideal.

Did you return yours?

 

[punchwalk]

It strikes me that this thread is just a way to pick an argument with people who like the new machine.

*snip*

I can understand asking people why they want the new machine and then deciding that as far as reading text is concerned you would use an iPad, but to ask a question and then to start arguing with people's rationale is indicative of a desire to argue rather than learn.

I never intended to pick an argument by starting this thread. I was hoping to hear some good use cases for an RMBP and some posters provided them. Thanks to those folks.

You are right about the fact that my original reply (the one you quoted) was a bit of cheap shot at people who bought an RMBP just for browsing the web (and for doing other trivial tasks that could just as easily be performed on any other device). I admit that it's not my place to belittle or disparage those folks; it's their money and they can spend it how they wish. Apologies to any of you in this category who I've offended.

But a lot of people reply in a manner that can only be described with words like "snippy" and "defensive." Those folks are the ones I am happy to engage in arguments as they've done little other than disparage the OP (me) without adding anything constructive to the discussion. If you're going to call me out in a post that I started with no malicious intent then I'm [usually] going to reply. Personally I'd rather those people say, "I bought it because I wanted it and because I can," or say nothing at all. Because that's probably the truth and that's just fine with me; I've occasionally taken the same approach to buying products in the past myself.

It's actually kind of self-defeating that you open your post from your ivory tower, judging those of us who like to engage in spirited debate, only to shamelessly join the unwashed masses a paragraph later.

 

[MH01]

+10000 cool points at your local Starbucks !

 

[BFW122083]

I never intended to pick an argument by starting this thread. I was hoping to hear some good use cases for an RMBP and some posters provided them.

You are right about the fact that my original reply (the one you quoted) was a bit of cheap shot at people who bought an RMBP just for browsing the web (and for doing other trivial tasks that could just as easily be performed on any other device). I admit that it's not my place to belittle or disparage those folks; it's their money and they can spend it how they wish.

But a lot of people reply in a manner that can only be described with words like "snippy" and "defensive." Those folks are the ones I am happy to engage in arguments as they've done little other than disparage the OP (me) without adding anything constructive to the discussion. I'd rather those people say, "I bought it because I wanted it and because I can," or say nothing at all. Because that's probably the reality to most of those people.

It's actually kind of pathetic that you open your post from your ivory tower, judging those of us who like to engage in spirited debate, only to shamelessly join the unwashed masses a paragraph later.

Honestly, I bought it because I wanted it . Same reason I upgraded to the new iPad too. I just really really really love the Retina displays. My old Mac could handle everything I need to do, but on the new one its more enjoyable to me. I'm the kind of guy that upgrades to new technology frequently and either sell the old or give it to a family member that is more than happy to have.

 

[MH01]

But why do you need a flat screen tv? What does it do better?

But why do you need the 4S? What does it do better?

But why do you need a BMW? What does it do better?

Gives you a much better image

 

[ixodes]

Did you return yours?

First... A Disclaimer:

I am very Pro-Apple within reason.
I am very Pro-Change within reason.
My point is simply that this is _NOT_ Apple bashing.
These are my thoughts and opinions shared here.

I have been an extremely loyal customer since the System 7 Days.
I do NOT plan to Quit, or Stop using Apple Computers.
I have NEVER expected perfection out of Apple, and never will.
---------------------------------------------------

I have not taken any action yet...

Mistakenly I trusted Apple, and pre-ordered without being aware of how my MBP_R was made. Now that I'm aware, it's primarily a philosophical issue for me. By keeping it, I've voted with my money, that I am OK with Apple migrating towards a completely disposable computer, locked down with the configuration _they_want, not necessarily one that I want.

The ramifications of this are much larger than those who are casually blowing off the topic realize. They truly are. I do believe that if more people would take an open minded look at this, they might feel as I do. But to jump to Apple's defense immediately (as so many tend to do) and endorse this way of building laptops, is to be very short sighted.

I am _NOT_ criticizing others values, viewpoints or preferences, however I have yet to read any intelligent dialog about the pros and cons. All I've seen so far on the forum is those who attack my position as though Apple is perfect, knows what's best for them, and should never be questioned.

Anyone who is interested in an actual _conversation_ devoid of sarcastic, caustic, or blind Pro-Apple dialog, would be welcome.

There are enough very intelligent people on this forum that are capable (if they are so inclined) of a very interesting, enlightening conversation where we all share our thoughts, views, and again ... pros and cons.

 

[JohnDoe98]

Anyone who is interested in an actual _conversation_ devoid of sarcastic, caustic, or blind Pro-Apple dialog, would be welcome.

There are enough very intelligent people on this forum that are capable (if they are so inclined) of a very interesting, enlightening conversation where we all share our thoughts, views, and again ... pros and cons.

I'll bite. But here is my disclaimer. After reviewing the cases of complaints, and the presumptive reasons for employing this new way of doing things, I happen to think the upgradability issue is now a very minor one. So, if you ask that no blind Pro-Apple dialogue take place, I'll ask that no blind Contra-Apple dialogue take place either.

Present to me the reasons why we should care about upgradability in a laptop. Don't tell me "pro"s need this or that. Just tell me the non-inflated advantages you think the upgradability model presents. I'll then tell you why I happen to think sacrificing that upgradability for larger batteries or greater portability, for most people, is the advantageous model. What say you to this proposal?

 

[JohnDoe98]

Actually, I changed my mind. I'll go first. In my mind, there are 3 things people typically upgrade: (1) HDs, (2) RAM, (3) Batteries. Let's examine the case for each one concerning having "upgradability" possibilities built-in from a design standpoint.

(1) Turns out the SSDs are upgradable so this is a non-issue.

(2) RAM. Well, the CPU sets to absolute limit of how much RAM you can use in a machine. Ivy Bridge is 32gbs. So, should Apple include socketed RAM in their machines from a design standpoint? My answer is no. The socketed variety take up more space that can be better utilised for larger batteries or slimmer, thinner, lighter designs, i.e. more portability. Rather than upgradable RAM I'd simply prefer that Apple sold the laptops with 8gb, 16gb, and 32gb configurations. That would make this entire "upgradability" of RAM business a non-starter. So the complaint isn't about the design of the new laptops, but Apple's failure to give sufficient configuration options.

(3) Batteries. The current batteries, under warranty, are guaranteed to last roughly 1000 cycles, so at minimum 3 years plus change. After than to change the battery it costs 200$. Well, put 20 cents away each day in savings and you'll have enough to replace the battery when it dies. So again, don't put clunky slots and latches that reduce battery sizes and portability potential.

So, from an open-minded quick examination, I can't see the merit of having upgradable designs. But maybe when I hear your side I'll be persuaded otherwise. Let's see what you have to say.

 

[skywalkerr69]

That shows you do not understand what is going on.

3D TVs never really caught on. Thus making your statement "huge amount of 3D TVs out there" completely false.

Also making 3D advertisements are a lot more involved. Uploading a higher resolution image to a website? Not so much.

Just more proof that you are indeed wrong.

Not caught on? They have 5% less market share than Mac OS. source: The Economist.

You figure out how many websites in a years time convert. I have no idea how many ate currently retina. My guess ~< 10%