What are the legitimate use cases for Retina?

[leenak]

I agree with you John. If someone wanted an upgradeable system, they wouldn't be using a laptop because there are limiting components that are locked down, mainly the CPU and GPU.

I bought the 512GB SSD configuration because I don't think I''ll use much more than that. I've been using less than 200GB for 5 or 6 years? I haven't even been that smart about my storage. I only got the 512GB due to plans for bootcamp. I also don't expect 16GB of RAM will be an issue. If anything, I think the processor and GPU will become issues before either of those could (as they are the issue on my current system).

Once a system no longer meets my needs, it isn't poofed into some landfill. It is passed on, usually to my husband who doesn't like having new computers. His needs are pretty minimal though. After he is done with it and if it is still usable, then it is undoubtedly an upgrade for someone. It can be given to a relative, donated or sold. Last resort is to send it to a recycle program.

 

[punchwalk]

I'll bite. But here is my disclaimer. After reviewing the cases of complaints, and the presumptive reasons for employing this new way of doing things, I happen to think the upgradability issue is now a very minor one. So, if you ask that no blind Pro-Apple dialogue take place, I'll ask that no blind Contra-Apple dialogue take place either.

Present to me the reasons why we should care about upgradability in a laptop. Don't tell me "pro"s need this or that. Just tell me the non-inflated advantages you think the upgradability model presents. I'll then tell you why I happen to think sacrificing that upgradability for larger batteries or greater portability, for most people, is the advantageous model. What say you to this proposal?

My main complaint about the lack of user upgradability of the MBPR is that I don't want be arbitrarily locked into a specific amount of RAM or using a specific Flash drive for the 3-5 year span over which a laptop should remain viable, especially when Apple sets their upgrade prices well above the industry average more often than not.

I bought my Winter 2011 MBP with 4GB because the BTO upgrade to 8GB was $200 at the time, which was $90 more than I ended up paying for aftermarket RAM only a couple weeks after purchasing the MBP. I also bought a SATA III SSD 3 months after I bought the MBP for far less than the BTO drive upgrades would have cost. Now it's less than 16 months since I bought my MBP and I'm chomping at the bit to upgrade to 16GB because the prices have come down and I've seen [on a colleague's MBP] what kind of benefits it can have. Having experienced this situation firsthand, I'm of the opinion that a non-upgradeable computer, Apple or otherwise, is a deal-breaker.

I think you're probably right in that most people won't see it as a deal-breaker though; probably only 1/4th of potential users.

EDIT: And before anyone starts saying that you CAN upgrade the drives (or at least you will be able to once vendors start selling adapters/compatible drives), I'd remind you that replacement of the drive in the MBPR outside of approved Apple channels will probably void your warranty (at they very least, Apple won't support any 3rd party drives). So that'll be a no-go for a lot of people.

 

[Nikos]

I'm going to run it at 3840x2400 so that I can see all of my channels in Ableton Live.

 

[JohnDoe98]

My main complaint about the lack of user upgradability of the MBPR is that I don't want be arbitrarily locked into a specific amount of RAM or using a specific Flash drive for the 3-5 year span over which a laptop should remain viable, especially when Apple sets their upgrade prices well above the industry average more often than not.

Apple's RAM pricing in the RMBP is quite fair if you compare it with other manufacturers right now. Similarly, if they gave a 32gb option, there would be no possibility of upgrading to higher amounts anyway. It seems your complaint boils down to a lack of configuration options in the new machine, not its design.

EDIT: And before anyone starts saying that you CAN upgrade the drives (or at least you will be able to once vendors start selling adapters/compatible drives), I'd remind you that replacement of the drive in the MBPR outside of approved Apple channels constitutes breakage of the warranty. So that'll be a no-go for a lot of people.

Yes but realistically how many people would upgrade in the first year under warranty? They included the latest highest performing flash memory in there. Unless you are making overly hasty purchases, it should last you a couple of years at minimum, by then your warranty is well expired. As for complaining about the pricing, don't buy Apple then. Why you expect any manufacturer to allow to you install cheaper third-party parts from competitors is beyond me.

 

[punchwalk]

Apple's RAM pricing in the RMBP is quite fair if you compare it with other manufacturers right now. Similarly, if they gave a 32gb option, there would be no possibility of upgrading to higher amounts anyway. It seems your complaint boils down to a lack of configuration options in the new machine, not its design.

Did you actually shop around to verify this? Because I have and can tell you that Apple's charging $75 more than the industry average for 16GB (assuming it's PC3-10600 DDR3). I guess the word "fair" is more subjective than I thought.

Yes but realistically how many people would upgrade in the first year under warranty?

If you actually read my post you'd realize you're barking up the wrong tree with this question. I upgraded the RAM and hard drive in the first three months I had the computer. And I have friends and colleagues who are Mac users who have done the same. In most cases, this is because it's significantly cheaper to upgrade aftermarket. And it's not just the 1-year warranty at stake; any issues that arise that can be attributed to an aftermarket upgrade won't be covered by AppleCare (sometimes they'll bend the rules on this issue, but they don't have to).

As for complaining about the pricing, don't buy Apple then. Why you expect any manufacturer to allow to you install cheaper third-party parts from competitors is beyond me.

Upgradeability has been THE precedent in the industry for notebook computers across pretty much ALL manufacturers for decades (excluding Netbooks and Ultrabooks).

 

[JohnDoe98]

Did you actually shop around to verify this? Because I have and can tell you that Apple's charging $75 more than the industry average for 16GB (assuming it's PC3-10600 DDR3). I guess the word "fair" is more subjective than I thought.

What the hell is that crap RAM doing in this discussion. If you want to complain about prices, get the quotes for the exact same model of RAM, not cheaper quality slower performing varieties. There are numerous threads that point out the closest competitors are around 180$, whereas Apple charges 200$. For 20$, I think it's probably just worth having Apple do the installation and not have to worry about warranty issues and damaging anything during installation. We are talking about a 2k+ machine after all. Please don't engage in these cheap tactics if you want to converse with me.

If you actually read my post you'd realize you're barking up the wrong tree with this question. I upgraded the RAM and hard drive in the first three months I had the computer. And I have friends and colleagues who are Mac users who have done the same. In most cases, this is because it's significantly cheaper to upgrade aftermarket. And it's not just the 1-year warranty at stake; any issues that arise that can be attributed to an aftermarket upgrade won't be covered by AppleCare (sometimes they'll bend the rules on this issue, but they don't have to).

And often those cheaper alternatives come at a performance loss. But again, that just indicates to me, with all due respect and no offense intended, that you are trying to skimp on the price. Why should Apple cater to that is beyond reasonable to me. Apple's aim is to make good products first and foremost, but they are still a business after all. We are talking about how good the design and value is of Apple's new machine. Telling me you wish you could replace some of its internals with cheaper crap isn't worth the time it takes to express it. If you are swapping out internal parts 1-2months after purchase what that indicates to me is you made a very bad purchase.

 

[punchwalk]

What the hell is that crap RAM doing in this discussion. If you want to complain about prices, get the quotes for the exact same model of RAM, not cheaper quality slower performing varieties. There are numerous threads that point out the closest competitors are around 180$, whereas Apple charges 20$. For 20$, I think it's probably just worth having Apple do the installation and not have to worry about warranty issues and damaging anything during installation. We are talking about a 2k+ machine after all. Please don't engage in these cheap tactics if you want to converse with me.

And often those cheaper alternatives come at a performance loss. But again, that just indicates to me, with all due respect and no offense intended, that you are trying to skimp on the price. Why should Apple cater to that is beyond reasonable to me. Apple's aim is to make good products first and foremost, but they are still a business after all. We are talking about how good the design and value is of Apple's new machine. Telling me you wish you could replace some of its internals with cheaper crap isn't worth the time it takes to express it. If you are swapping out internal parts 1-2months after purchase what that indicates to me is you made a very bad purchase.

Go do some actual research and you'll see that *many* of those aftermarket components that you so resolutely insist are substandard in some way are actually just as good if not better than those included by Apple.

And I'm not giving you a lot of crap because I just like being a jerk to strangers, it's because your statements are obviously uninformed. But let's just agree to disagree and let it drop. This bickering is pointless.

 

[wundram]

Did you actually shop around to verify this? Because I have and can tell you that Apple's charging $75 more than the industry average for 16GB (assuming it's PC3-10600 DDR3). I guess the word "fair" is more subjective than I thought.

I believe it is pc3l12800 or ddr3l-1600, I'm not sure you can even get SO-DIMMS with that type of RAM.

Not that I am in favor of non upgradable RAM, that was a bit of a disappointment.

 

[JohnDoe98]

Go do some actual research and you'll see that *many* of those aftermarket components that you so resolutely insist are substandard in some way are actually just as good if not better than those included by Apple.

And I'm not giving you a lot of crap because I just like being a jerk to strangers, it's because your statements are obviously uninformed. But let's just agree to disagree and let it drop. This bickering is pointless.

Sure we can drop it. But let's just be clear, your complaint has turned into a financial one, and has nothing to do with the poor design quality of the product. You never addressed the arguments I use to demonstrate there is no complaint to be had here. If you actually want to converse, you would have responded to post #76.

It's also ironic you quote 1333mhz RAM when Apple has 1600mhz RAM in the machine, yet you call me uninformed.

 

[Jiten]

Jez punchwalk, can you have a reasonable discussion without calling people names?

 

[derickdub]

For me the only legitimate use would be to remove scaling for extra screen real-estate. I'd seriously consider a rBMP if it came with a matte display, even with the lack of a dedicated Ethernet port and being stuck with 16GB of RAM. But for now I'll just stick with the older design.

 

[punchwalk]

Sure we can drop it. But let's just be clear, your complaint has turned into a financial one, and has nothing to do with the poor design quality of the product. You never addressed the arguments I use to demonstrate there is no complaint to be had here. If you actually want to converse, you would have responded to post #76.

It's also ironic you quote 1333mhz RAM when Apple has 1600mhz RAM in the machine, yet you call me uninformed.

A slight oversight I admit (I was going off of information from my 2011 purchase which was meticulously researched) but a quick bit of searching reveals that the PC3-12800 DDR3 1600MHz can still easily be purchased with the same savings as could be found in 2011. I might have a little dirt on my face, but I'm still correct.

Also, you asked [in post #75] for someone to present an argument as to why the lack of upgradeability was a bad thing. You didn't add any caveats stating that financial reasons don't carry any weight with you. Just for reference:

Present to me the reasons why we should care about upgradability in a laptop. Don't tell me "pro"s need this or that. Just tell me the non-inflated advantages you think the upgradability model presents. I'll then tell you why I happen to think sacrificing that upgradability for larger batteries or greater portability, for most people, is the advantageous model. What say you to this proposal?

So how the heck did I do other than exactly what you asked for? But somehow I'm the bad guy here. And you know what? I'm fine with that. Sometimes the world needs scapegoats.

In any event, let me reiterate the conclusion of my previous response: I'm done talking to you. I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe, and the world will keep turning.

 

[JohnDoe98]

A slight oversight I admit (I was going off of information from my 2011 purchase which was meticulously researched) but a quick bit of searching reveals that the PC3-12800 DDR3 1600MHz can still easily be purchased with the same savings as could be found in 2011. I might have a little dirt on my face, but I'm still correct.

Also, you asked [in post #75] for someone to present an argument as to why the lack of upgradeability was a bad thing. You didn't add any caveats stating that financial reasons don't carry any weight with you. Just for reference:



So how the heck did I do other than exactly what you asked for? But somehow I'm the bad guy here. And you know what? I'm fine with that. Sometimes the world needs scapegoats.

In any event, let me reiterate the conclusion of my previous response: I'm done talking to you. I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe, and the world will keep turning.

Sorry, I meant post #76, and you still have the RAM wrong. You need DDR3L. Anyway, clearly you no longer want to discuss matters in an open-minded spirit. If you want to shut yourself up from the possibility of convincing others on the basis of good arguments and respectful discussion, or similarly their convincing you to revise your positions, that is your perogitive, though I think it a unfortunate attitude to adopt. I choose to always keep the possibility of learning from other open. I'll believe what I do until someone convinces me to change or until I find better arguments.

Oh and I looked at OWC, 170$ compared to Apple's 200$....

 

[balthusdire]

Sorry, I meant post #76, and you still have the RAM wrong. You need DDR3L. Anyway, clearly you no longer want to discuss matters in an open-minded spirit. If you want to shut yourself up from the possibility of convincing others on the basis of good arguments and respectful discussion, or similarly their convincing you to revise your positions, that is your perogitive, though I think it a unfortunate attitude to adopt. I choose to always keep the possibility of learning from other open. I'll believe what I do until someone convinces me to change or until I find better arguments.

meh, he might be wrong about the ram today, but give it a few weeks and crucial, owc and kingston will start pushing their own cheaper offerings.

 

[JohnDoe98]

meh, he might be wrong about the ram today, but give it a few weeks and crucial, owc and kingston will start pushing their own cheaper offerings.

Ok but how is this relevant? Do you complain when BMW doesn't let you install third-party parts without voiding your warranty? In any case, if your complaint is a financial one, i.e. Apple is too expensive, then say that and don't obfuscate the discussion with this upgradability BS. If you have independent arguments on the upgradability front, please present them for our consideration.

 

[EvilShenaniganZ]

I'm trying to understand the practicality of the Retina MBP. To those of you who bought one, can you please answer me this question:

What will a Retina MBP allow you to do better than a non-Retina would?

Well these first 3 days have showed me I can and WILL never use a non retina display if at all possible.
This thing real is a beautiful machine.....

 

[BJonson]

Actually it's a lot harder to do web design on retina at least for the next year until your tools are updated. Simply because if you make let's say a 100x100 image on your page, that image will look extremely small on your screen and different than what ur users will see.
If you use scaling, that image will scale 200% on ur computer so you can see it the same physical size as your customer. But your image will look jagged and blurry. U can't really know what it will actually look like.

This is just one of many examples I can think of.

Are you sure about this because I just today got the new retina ipad and it scales iphone apps to crystal clearity. The same app on my ipad 2 looks like crap. The app is bejeweled for iphone.

 

[balthusdire]

Ok but how is this relevant? Do you complain when BMW doesn't let you install third-party parts without voiding your warranty? In any case, if your complaint is a financial one, i.e. Apple is too expensive, then say that and don't obfuscate the discussion with this upgradability BS. If you have independent arguments on the upgradability front, please present them for our consideration.

wow man i just showed up, i wasn't trying to get involved in your argument. calm down.

 

[strausd]

Not caught on? They have 5% less market share than Mac OS. source: The Economist.

You figure out how many websites in a years time convert. I have no idea how many ate currently retina. My guess ~< 10%

Your point was that people only update for profit. Completely false.

MR makes its profit from ads. Yet still updated this site for Retina. That just disproves your point right there.

Also the fact that you keep bringing up how people shouldn't update to new technology is pathetic. If everybody followed your logic of never updating, then technology would never advance. Everything you have said is wrong. Do yourself a favor and just stop now before you make yourself look even worse.

 

[JohnDoe98]

wow man i just showed up, i wasn't trying to get involved in your argument. calm down.

Sorry if you misstok my tone. I meant it calmy and courteously. I am just trying to keep the actual complaints that have merits focused, so I use direct language.

 

[balthusdire]

Sorry if you misstok my tone. I meant it calmy and courteously. I am just trying to keep the actual complaints that have merits focused, so I use direct language.

i don't see how it's fair to say that financial complaints don't have merit. macbook pro users have usually spent 2 grand or more for their machines. is it so unreasonable for them to want to save a couple bucks on an upgrade? sheesh.

 

[JohnDoe98]

i don't see how it's fair to say that financial complaints don't have merit. macbook pro users have usually spent 2 grand or more for their machines. is it so unreasonable for them to want to save a couple bucks on an upgrade? sheesh.

That's perfectly fine, but why not just say that? Also, that why there is a new uMBP that has that. But Apple was very clear regarding the RMBP, this isn't a cost cutting machine, rather it is one aimed to push boundaries and only to use cutting edge technology. You can't reasonably expect that to be designed for the cost weary people. If Apple dropped the uMBPs from there line up I'd concede the complaint, but they didn't do that. So I am having a hard time seeing the design flaw with this very unique model. But maybe someone can explain it to me.

 

[Mapex]

I'm trying to understand the practicality of the Retina MBP. To those of you who bought one, can you please answer me this question:

What will a Retina MBP allow you to do better than a non-Retina would?

App Developers and Designers: better text to reduce strain on the eyes; Retina is also important to ensure your web/mobile/Cocoa apps are Retina-friendly.

Photographers, Photo Editors, Video Editors: self-explanatory

Everyone else: if the MacBook Air wasn't good enough for you because of its lower power and smaller screen, then this device offers more portability than the classic MBP. Laptops of all specs really need to be more portable (otherwise you might as well just build your own desktop for cheaper and more power) and the Retina MBP is on the right track.

The classic MBP isn't bad but this new Retina MBP has clearly outclassed it in every respect minus price (though it's justified for now) and upgradeability (maybe next year things will be better). This will also very much be the last time we see these classic MBPs and due to their future obsolescence their resale value may take a hit in the next 12 to 18 months.

 

[ladeer]

Are you sure about this because I just today got the new retina ipad and it scales iphone apps to crystal clearity. The same app on my ipad 2 looks like crap. The app is bejeweled for iphone.

I am talking about scaling up of 3GS app on an iPad 2.

Perhaps your bejeweled is already a retina app so it will look fine on iPad 3? I am not sure what you are seeing/looking. But if you look at a 3GS app on an iPad, it looks crap when you pixel double.

 

[Chupa Chupa]

Just because you don't understand the intent of the question doesn't make it stupid.

I understand your question, as you wrote it, just fine. It's meaning is quite clear when read literally. If you meant to express some other thought then perhaps you should have written your original post to reflect that thought, and not the troll-like one you did write. My reading comprehension is above average, but I'm not a mind reader.

The premise of your question, as I read it is, what why is the RMBP better than the MBP. And the short answer is, it's not better, it's different. Each model has it's advantages and disadvantages, and the reason one buys one of the other is going to vary with each individuals needs. However, the tone of your question is more like "why in the hell would anyone buy a RMBP." If that's not what you mean, OK, but then write what you mean to say.