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I'm unbiased towards both systems, they're both fantastic in their own way. But even my iMacs have crashed in Windows many a time. Maybe not every 10 minutes, but once a day at least. Sometimes it even crashes on bootup - it will play that Windows XP jingle tune and just restart.

Different versions of XP, different apps installed.
 
- If they buy PCs, they're (effectively) tied into Windows.

- If they buy Macs, you have the choice of OSX or Windows. Less risk. More flexibility, hence more future-proof. Ability to test your designs on both platforms (for different browsers, for testing different gamma on Mac & PCs etc...). Ability to hire staff who are proficient with either OS. Less training needed (staff can use whichever OS they are familiar with).
 
Dock Replacement

If you miss the dock, I would recommend RocketDock. It works well, and if you hide the taskbar and start menu, you've got your dock back:).
 
I'm unbiased towards both systems, they're both fantastic in their own way. But even my iMacs have crashed in Windows many a time. Maybe not every 10 minutes, but once a day at least. Sometimes it even crashes on bootup - it will play that Windows XP jingle tune and just restart.

Different versions of XP, different apps installed.



Another example of bull crap argument that are used. I shall point back to my orginal post in this tread followed be several that where made after it.

I sorry but you mac biased is well very clear because other wise you would never of use the stupid BS crashing argument to begin with.
 
You need to put together a specific comparison between the lifetime costs of the proposed Windows and Mac configurations. It needs to be organized–get other people in your department to agree with you and back you up. If there is a general consensus, and a small (if any) additional cost going with Mac, then the administration/executives won't have much of a chance. Don't jump up and down like a fool–execs obviously don't like that. They prefer calm, reasoned arguments.
 
- If they buy PCs, they're (effectively) tied into Windows....

I wonder if either of these arguments would really fly with corporate IT...

1) They're not going to be migrating back and forth over and over again between Windows and MacOS. Particularly not on the time cycle that they'd actually own or lease the hardware. No IT department is going to get away with that amount of creating-work-for-themselves boondoggling.

2) They're probably not going to want to support a lot of dual-booting staff because of the complexity it entails (by essentially doubling the number of workstations they support). Not to mention that unfamiliar IT people will be skittish about Bootcamp's beta status. As for virtualization... it's a solution to a problem they don't have (from their perspective, they're already fine with running Windows).

3) They're probably not training their staff in squat anyways. ;)

Not trying to be a hater... I essentially agree with Clevin's post quite a ways back. If the IT staff are at implementation go-ahead stage for a switch to Windows, the great likelihood is that there aren't salient limitations to what they can do in Windows. Selling Macs or OS X on benefits outside of overcoming hard barriers in Windows is fine, but I think things like what you're describing are easy to say but hard to demonstrate numerically, and they're arguments that have increasingly less weight without some numbers with purchasing....
 
Not much really....they are both computers. They both have Apps which end up doing the same things.


It how things get done, price, easy of use....that makes OS X better
 
Sad isn't it - people fear change.

Not all change is good, though. I'm a web developer and I have used both Macs and PC's enough to be able to switch back and forth between them when I have to. I've also used them enough to know that I'm much more productive in a Mac environment. In cases where I have to work on a job at a place that has PC's I just deal with it, but if I worked full time at a job and they threatened to replace our Macs with PC's I'd raise a stink too. Employees should have the right to use tools that will make them most productive, especially when those tools were there already when they started the job. Sure a company may save a few dollars making the platform switch, but how much will they lose in lost productivity when an employee has to switch to a less productive tool?
 
You need to put together a specific comparison between the lifetime costs of the proposed Windows and Mac configurations. It needs to be organized–get other people in your department to agree with you and back you up. If there is a general consensus, and a small (if any) additional cost going with Mac, then the administration/executives won't have much of a chance. Don't jump up and down like a fool–execs obviously don't like that. They prefer calm, reasoned arguments.

I might like to add in that life time cost you can not use the argument Mac do not need anti virus. You will still need anti virus software, and firewall software on the mac because you are a business. Even if your computer can not get infected you can not afford to risk passing along any viruses by mistake. Firewall software is just a smart thing to include.

Pretty much the biggest factors in the savings are removed from the picture because you will still need them. Plus do not forget to include the 1.5 year OS update for the macs.
 
I might like to add in that life time cost you can not use the argument Mac do not need anti virus. You will still need anti virus software, and firewall software on the mac because you are a business. Even if your computer can not get infected you can not afford to risk passing along any viruses by mistake. Firewall software is just a smart thing to include.

Pretty much the biggest factors in the savings are removed from the picture because you will still need them. Plus do not forget to include the 1.5 year OS update for the macs.

-all the places with macs i've ever worked have never had anti-virus.
-the mac has a built in firewall
-i think a company that's still using os 9 won't really be too concerned about keeping their OS' on the bleeding edge by upgrading it every 1.5 years, and more to the point, upgrading something this critical immediately is not something that should be recommended for any business, whether it's mac or windows based.
 
Very true. I have had more OS X crashes than Windows XP. Windows XP is a rock solid OS, hence one of the reasons Vista isn't doing so well. It was the same with Windows 2000. It was very solid and took companies time to migrate to WinXP.

When Mac users talk about Windows always crashing they are talking about Windows 95 and Windows ME. Us fan boys shouldn't be so naive. It only makes us look bad.

actually i used both xp and vista for quite long..and they both crash like crazy..you get a blue screen for no reason...i swear the last time i was only using MS paint and i got a blue screen! seriously!!
so if you want do your work without having to suffer frm freezes and crashes and software problems..you better avoid anything from microsoft...if they ever make better os i wouldnt mind buying a pc and use it with my mac...i dont hate the company but their products make me sick..
 
actually i used both xp and vista for quite long..and they both crash like crazy..you get a blue screen for no reason...i swear the last time i was only using MS paint and i got a blue screen! seriously!!
so if you want do your work without having to suffer frm freezes and crashes and software problems..you better avoid anything from microsoft...if they ever make better os i wouldnt mind buying a pc and use it with my mac...i dont hate the company but their products make me sick..


umm I do not think it is the software. Chance are good something is wrong with a piece of your hardware/ drivers. I was having a blue screen problem on my windows PC a while ago along with some problems. Turns out my video drivers had a bad install and just redoing it fix ALL the problems.
 
umm I do not think it is the software. Chance are good something is wrong with a piece of your hardware/ drivers. I was having a blue screen problem on my windows PC a while ago along with some problems. Turns out my video drivers had a bad install and just redoing it fix ALL the problems.

maybe that's what had my dell bsod'ing me every other day...
 
-all the places with macs i've ever worked have never had anti-virus.
-the mac has a built in firewall
-i think a company that's still using os 9 won't really be too concerned about keeping their OS' on the bleeding edge by upgrading it every 1.5 years, and more to the point, upgrading something this critical immediately is not something that should be recommended for any business, whether it's mac or windows based.


Well remind me never to work with those companies for not having AV software. The AV software is to protect the customers from the company passing virus by mistake. If a company that I work with sent me a virus and it wreck my PC I would demand they pay for repairs and they rightfully should. For a business it is poor practice not to run AV software.
As for the firewall software if you want to use the mac have a built in firewall so does windows so it not a fair comparison. Plus the company should be running hardware firewalls any how so again a non issue.

Problem is cost wise their is not a huge difference. Depending on the size I am guessing small paying for an IT guy is going to cost the same because even with windows one IT guy could run more computers than there currently are so with the Mac it not going to change. So the IT budget does not change.

Crashing and system down time is a BS argument.

If the guy looking at the saving understand the information he will cut through the BS very quickly. So be very careful on how you do it and it better not just add to the normal BS in the go over to a mac arguments that a lot of people use.
 
I'm not so sure how serious you guys are about design, but the biggest argument should come from what Macs specifically mean to your job and department, not Macs vs. PCs on the whole. You're basically looking at better color management, better font management, industry standard compatibility, (vendors & such), better multitasking, a better file system, better and more pervasive key commands and an overall more stable environment. And if you do anything for the web, it's a multi-OS browser testing machine.
 
Well remind me never to work with those companies for not having AV software. The AV software is to protect the customers from the company passing virus by mistake. If a company that I work with sent me a virus and it wreck my PC I would demand they pay for repairs and they rightfully should. For a business it is poor practice not to run AV software.

Maybe you're right that not using AV software is a bad business move, but you would have no right (legal or otherwise) to demand payments for any losses–it's just as much your fault (if not more so) for not protecting yourself.

As for the firewall software if you want to use the mac have a built in firewall so does windows so it not a fair comparison. Plus the company should be running hardware firewalls any how so again a non issue.

I read it this way: Both Mac and Windows have firewalls, so there's no difference. Anyways, most companies run hardware firewalls so the software firewalls don't matter.

I still think you can compare Mac and Windows firewalls. In addition, it is a fact there are fewer viruses targeted at OS X, thereby decreasing your risk and allowing Apple to respond better (they have more time and less to deal with).

Crashing and system down time is a BS argument.

I don't believe so. I believe it was you who stated that it's very difficult to have a super-reliable system with so many different possible hardware configurations. In this instance, the how doesn't matter–only the end product does. My personal experience is Macs crash less often than Windows. Assuming this is the case, Macs become more productive and also require fewer IT visits.

As a PS, is English your first language?
 
Why doesn't your company save even more money and just give everyone old busted 486s they pick up from yard sales? Because after all, a computer's just a computer and your employees' overall productivity, efficiency, environment, or work quality doesn't mean anything.

They probably give you cheap chairs and not enough printers or conference rooms and your parking space is too far away too. Thanks for reminding me again why I work at home for myself. :D
 
1) They're not going to be migrating back and forth over and over again between Windows and MacOS. Particularly not on the time cycle that they'd actually own or lease the hardware. No IT department is going to get away with that amount of creating-work-for-themselves boondoggling.

It's not just about the hardware. It's the peripherals, the software, the user skills, the support skills. If they buy PCs, they have to dump pretty much everything if they ever decided to move to Mac.

If they buy Macs, the secondary investment in software, peripherals etc. isn't wasted if they choose to move to Windows. And, unlike migrating from a PC to a Mac, if you migrate from OSX to Windows you can do a 'soft landing' migration since you still can have Windows available to fall back on while accustoming to OSX.

Hell, even if they choose they must run Windows for now, choosing a Mac to do so isn't a bad idea.

2) They're probably not going to want to support a lot of dual-booting staff because of the complexity it entails (by essentially doubling the number of workstations they support). Not to mention that unfamiliar IT people will be skittish about Bootcamp's beta status. As for virtualization... it's a solution to a problem they don't have (from their perspective, they're already fine with running Windows).

You know, some times I have to shake my head at the power IT wield in some companies - it's something our company deal with a lot (as an ISV). The mind boggles that rather than playing a support role, IT departments often actually dictate the production environment over the heads (and often, against the wishes) of production staff.

It's a bit like a doctor saying he doesn't treat your disease, you need to catch a different one.
 
Well remind me never to work with those companies for not having AV software. The AV software is to protect the customers from the company passing virus by mistake. If a company that I work with sent me a virus and it wreck my PC I would demand they pay for repairs and they rightfully should. For a business it is poor practice not to run AV software.
As for the firewall software if you want to use the mac have a built in firewall so does windows so it not a fair comparison. Plus the company should be running hardware firewalls any how so again a non issue.

Problem is cost wise their is not a huge difference. Depending on the size I am guessing small paying for an IT guy is going to cost the same because even with windows one IT guy could run more computers than there currently are so with the Mac it not going to change. So the IT budget does not change.

Crashing and system down time is a BS argument.

If the guy looking at the saving understand the information he will cut through the BS very quickly. So be very careful on how you do it and it better not just add to the normal BS in the go over to a mac arguments that a lot of people use.

first of all, thankyou, termina3 for the support

second of all, when my IT manager read your post, this was his reaction:
:rolleyes:

if your company does not have adequate virus protection, you can't go around pointing the finger at others. it's not my responsibility to protect everybody with whom i have contact. whether i choose to is another matter altogether. besides which, it's been demonstrated that many "leading" antivirus programs actually reduce the security and integrity of the mac os.

saying that the mac os and windows both have firewalls is like saying that my house has a door and my bank has a door, so my house is as secure as my bank.

um, no. sorry. there are so many holes in this argument i don't even need to address it.

finally, the reason why my IT manager rolled his eyes and walked away is because there's better things he could be doing right now. because he's not managing a team of people whose job it is to fix randomly crashing computers in our office, the IT department actually gets stuff done. they've just upgraded our intranet. i'm not saying that intranets don't get upgraded in windows based environments. but it's sure a lot harder when 80-90% of your day is answering telephone calls such as "my computer just gave me an error -46. what does that mean?" or "can you come and look at this? i can't print! there's no printer!"

again, i'm not saying these issues are absent with the mac os, there are a few niggles and bugs. however, work is not lost because computers crash frequently, and such errors occur far less frequently. so we get more work done. so our boss (who pays us all money, remember) is not paying us to sit and do nothing while some other guy, also being paid money, tears himself away from whatever he was being paid to do, comes and fixes the problem, then goes back to what he was doing. so a simple error, in effect, costing the time and wage of two people to correct, is simply avoided.

please explain how this is not more cost efficient, because i'm sure there are many, many accountants out there who'll be extremely interested in what you have to say. this last reason, above any colour management or sheer processing power, is why the design and film industries have used macs for so long. especially in these industries, which often bill by the hour, time needs to be very efficiently spent, and any downtime that can be avoided, is.

in the mean time, i'm getting back to work.
 
please explain how this is not more cost efficient, because i'm sure there are many, many accountants out there who'll be extremely interested in what you have to say. this last reason, above any colour management or sheer processing power, is why the design and film industries have used macs for so long. especially in these industries, which often bill by the hour, time needs to be very efficiently spent, and any downtime that can be avoided, is.

in the mean time, i'm getting back to work.


Ah look some one finally came up with an argument that can not be shot down. No where did I stated that color mangament or that part is a key issue.

But again case and point on the entire crashing issue. It is not as bad as everyone seems to claim it out to be. If the IT department is 1-2 guys then PC vs OSX is not going to make a big enough difference to matter. It starts adding up the larger the department gets.

As for the AV software it called covering your own rear because if you send a virus to some else like it or not you just lost a customer. One lost customer means around 10 in the long run because they will recommend against your company. Plus it protects you from legal fees fighting being sued for any damages the virus you passed along caused (and any possible losses in the law suits)

I was cutting through removing the classic BS arguments people like to use when attacking windows.

Also you have to look at the cost of the switch and it might not be worth the cost.
But no where did I attack the software. Hell that is where you want to go for the arguments. Plus you want to know what other companies in the same field are using. Those are the examples you go with.

Lastly I suggest looking else where for help on the matter because lets face it I already showed to clear examples of the completely BS no truth what so ever arguments Apple fans like to use.
Trick is do not even go remotely to those areas for arguments.
 
[snip]
Crashing and system down time is a BS argument.
[snip]

saying something like this without demonstrating why is just a tagline. anyone can do this, and it automatically puts the other person in defense mode. talk is cheap.

watch:
you're lying just to waste people's time.

i don't really believe this statement, and it is a ridiculous statement, because i haven't backed it up with anything. it's not true, either.

the problem is not that the arguments for the mac are bs, because they're not. the problem is that about 80% of the people who spout the arguments for the mac don't understand or even just have trouble articulating the reasons why these arguments are sound.

so then their arguments look like bs, because they can't back them up.
often, people have an emotional investment in the product which they stand behind, so their emotions override logical debate, which again, results in a lack of clear reasoning.

again, the reasons that design and film industries mainly use macs comes back to one thing: efficiency. you get more out of them for the money you spend on them, which gives you bigger returns over time.

when you look at a multi-million dollar investment (for example, in a film) even a small increase in efficiency adds up to a lot of moolah. often, though, such increases snowball over time, giving bigger and bigger returns as people become more and more efficient.
 
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