maflynn
macrumors Broadwell
Steve Job's focus was on creating insanely great products and the share holder value would follow. Apple used to be consumer first, now its shareholder first.
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What would make you leave Apple?
- Thread starter crococarbs
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I’m old enough to remember that no one ever loved Windows other than Microsoft marketing shills. Give me a break.
VisceralRealist
macrumors 65816
It would take a lot to make me leave Apple. I've been in the "ecosystem" since I was a kid. They would have to stop making products I care about. If, for example, they decided to stop making iPhones and focus only on smart glasses, then yeah, I'd probably leave Apple. But unless something extreme like that happens, I'm sticking with it.
I do have a Windows PC that I use (mostly for gaming), but no part of me wants to switch to Windows. And as the most popular Android phones just come to resemble iPhone clones, I don't feel like I'm missing much.
I do have a Windows PC that I use (mostly for gaming), but no part of me wants to switch to Windows. And as the most popular Android phones just come to resemble iPhone clones, I don't feel like I'm missing much.
OK, so, obviously,
(1) GNU/Linux, although it's still a bit of a labour of love.
(2) ChromeOS
Are there any more more general purpose destop OSs that:
(a) aren't GNU/Linux distros running slightly different permutations of the same tools - because, mostly, either the applications you need support GNU/Linux or they don't.
(b) have a market share of more than a rounding error
(c) aren't the OS equivalent of enthusiast-run steam railways (AmigaOS, RISC OS etc.)
...?
There's a difference between "this OS exists and can be fun to hack in C and Python" and "this OS is a viable alternative that supports the applications you need".
Likewise, for mobile, the choice is iOS vs Android vs. 'do you feel lucky'. The "choice" is various different skins/launchers sitting on Android (assuming they support the Play store). That's if you want your banking apps, the authenticator app you need for work, etc.
Well, that's still the unavoidable reality for some people, although it has got better since the bad old days of the 90s/early 00s.
The sensible approach is, and has always been, pick the applications and services you need to use regularly and then buy the platform that runs them best and most reliably. Unfortunately, not everybody gets free choice over what applications they need - if the people paying you say you need Adobe CS or MS Office, then it's MacOS or Windows for you however much you detest Adobe or MS. If you need certain MS Office features, that narrows to just Windows.
Not my point, and you know it's not. You wrote that people "love" Apple products.
To clarify, "popularity" does not equal "love." Further, Apple users are echoing many of the same feelings I heard from Windows users back in the '90s and '00s. For many, the fallacy of sunken costs also plays a part because they've spent so much on the ecosystem. They feel trapped and see no way out—just look at some of the responses here.
It's not love—it's staying in an abusive relationship and hoping it will get better.
Again, give me a break. People don't line up to buy a product because they don't love it. You really think Apple sells hundreds of millions of iPhones every year to people who don't love them? No one is trapped. If you don't like the Apple ecosystem, move to other products. It's easy.
I've been in the tech world since before Windows existed. People used it because it was cheap and became the business standard (because it was cheap). Everyone hated it and users were very vocal about their hate for it. IRQ conflicts anyone??
Outside of a few tiresome, boring, whiny complainers on Apple forums, there's a lot of love for Apple products.
I7guy
macrumors Westmere
I consider the branch of general purpose operating systems starting from Unix family tree to all be different. The requirement "this OS is a viable alternative that supports the applications you need" can be slanted to be like "I can only use windows".
In the world it seems there are only two general purpose popular operating systems. Those that started from DOS and those that started from Unix. This is what we are stuck with today.
If the people paying me tell me to sit at my desk with my feet on the desk, I would do it. 🙂
I7guy
macrumors Westmere
I believe that most apple consumers really like apple products. "Love" may be to strong a word.
I do not believe most apple consumers buy apple products because of a "sunk cost" and the "best of the worst".
What abusive relationship. Apple does it's thing and I do my thing. When apple fails to do it's thing to my satisfaction, I'll do my thing, which is switch manufacturers.
Steve Jobs was an exceptional character who is credited (rightly or wrongly) with a string of revolutionary products (iPhone for sure, iPod/iTunes in combo, the original Mac...) any one of which would be a great once-in-a-lifetime achievement on anybody's CV.
If Apple could find another CEO who layed an industry-changing golden egg every 5-10 years they'd be in a position to ignore Wall Street and do their own thing.
Unfortunately, the new industries that Jobs pretty much created are now mature and past-peak, and giving consumers what they want would involve supporting their perfectly good existing Macs with perpetual free services in the hope that they may upgrade sometime in the next decade.
The industry has decided that the "next iPhone" is going to be AI services - whether customers want it or not, and even if it destroys the industry (as long as that doesn't happen this quarter) - which is something that Apple can't really be blamed for.
dmr727
macrumors G4
I consider the MacOS and iOS sides to be two different questions, as I don't generally have to use Apple's services on my MBA. I have my M4 Air mainly due to the hardware - there wouldn't be much pain in switching to Linux if that's what I chose to do.
My iPhone is a different matter, as it's really tied into the ecosystem. I stream Music from it, back it up to iCloud, use CarPlay, ApplePay, Maps, share photos, and so on. I could probably switch from Music to Spotify and use a different cloud service, but for a lot of this stuff quitting Apple means using Google instead, which IMO is simply two sides of the same ******tification coin.
My iPhone is a different matter, as it's really tied into the ecosystem. I stream Music from it, back it up to iCloud, use CarPlay, ApplePay, Maps, share photos, and so on. I could probably switch from Music to Spotify and use a different cloud service, but for a lot of this stuff quitting Apple means using Google instead, which IMO is simply two sides of the same ******tification coin.
turbineseaplane
macrumors Penryn
This is so interesting to me.
I'm becoming the total opposite.
As long as some core things are covered for me, like my web browsing experience of preference, so much of my needs are very cross platform agnostic these days.
The more Apple tries to turn everything into a highly controlled (by them) appliance, the lower my interest goes.
turbineseaplane
macrumors Penryn
I've been wondering how long until we get to this place.
All the people arguing that Apple should get to monetize every square millimeter of it's "IP" can just as easily slide into defending what you're describing here.
It's so depressing.
BSDnostalgia
macrumors 6502a
I like Apple Silicon. If Apple had been able to pull it off with PPC back in the day, I would have liked it even more. But, I don't like the direction Apple is headed with ads, mandatory subscriptions, and AI. (Not that Wintel is better.)
capamac
macrumors 6502a
IMO Linux is an alternative to Windows/Mac. Even without access to Adobe apps.
If a omnipotent magician took away every Mac and Windows machine, people could learn to use Linux. It's not *that* hard. People are simply used to what they're used to and don't feel compelled to learn Linux.
If a omnipotent magician took away every Mac and Windows machine, people could learn to use Linux. It's not *that* hard. People are simply used to what they're used to and don't feel compelled to learn Linux.
Scepticalscribe
macrumors Haswell
Maps, - a depressing but illustrating example of craven conduct - along with spinelessness, and supine sycophancy (to political elites) among other things, are some of the reasons I would consider quitting Apple.
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Who lines up now? Even the people I know who lined up in 2007 don’t any longer and haven’t in years. I worked in tech for a long time (over 25 years) and then pivoted to teaching. Getting outside of tech opened my eyes to the bubble I used to work in and made me realize the amount of animosity that is out there.
Trust me, there are a whole lot more people who feel trapped in the ecosystem. They feel powerless, overwhelmed, and that they are expected to like it. They are resentful and angry. And a lot of them feel like they have no choice but to keep buying.
Again, that ain’t love.
BSDnostalgia
macrumors 6502a
Easy, actually. Maybe not quite as easy as MacOS, but, in many respects, easier than Windows. But, the first question most people have is, can it run ___ . And, many companies will die before they ever support Linux versions of their products, because it doesn't support their worldview that they own their customers.
turbineseaplane
macrumors Penryn
I would also argue that a large portion of the efforts to force feed AI into everything, everywhere, is about that same desire for "control" (over customers, employees, etc).
Everyone has seemingly turned into "let's give people no choice but to perpetually rent their existence".
Push back now folks, or forever hold your peace.
"the branch of general purpose operating systems starting from Unix family tree" would include MacOS, ChromeOS and Android (and even Windows is not without Un*x influences). It's not a very useful distinction.
These days, when people say "Linux" they mainly mean one of the well known consumer-friendly distributions like Debian, Fedora/RHEL, Ubuntu (based on Debian), Mint (based on Ubuntu...). They're certainly "different" in minor ways - but not "different" in the way (say) MacOS and Android are. They all have the Linux kernel and GNU toolchain/libraries which is the main deciding factor in whether they support your hardware or whether your software will run. Any tools/libraries/drivers missing on one distro can usually be installed.
There's no "slant" - if you need to run Windows-only-software you need Windows. If you need to run Mac-only software you need Mac. If you need to run Linux/Unix-only software, most Linux/Un*x distros will do the trick and you may even be able to build the Unix version on MacOS (not sure what state XQuartz is in if you need a GUI, though). Sure, there's virtualization, and systems like Wine - which may work in a fix but aren't really ideal for your daily drivers.
Scepticalscribe
macrumors Haswell
Another things that would prompt me to re-consider remaining with Apple is the simple fact that it is US owned.
For context, I will observe that I'm European, and - increasingly, these days - I am seeking alternatives - preferably European - to products made in the US.
For context, I will observe that I'm European, and - increasingly, these days - I am seeking alternatives - preferably European - to products made in the US.
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turbineseaplane
macrumors Penryn
I think this general sentiment, worldwide, is very likely to have a big impact if things continue going as they have been.
I7guy
macrumors Westmere
All of these operating systems mentioned are not interchangeable. This to me means, in spite of their genealogy they are not the same.
I7guy
macrumors Westmere
To my knowledge there are no operating system outside of Mac OS or windows that provides the robustness inherently built in. But our requirements are all different and you may find that, for example, if your needs are all web based an European alternative might be very successful.
Linux has a sort of "usability gap"
- It can be great for very basic users who just want web, email and - for their uses - will barely notice the difference between LibreOffice and MS. Esp. if an experienced person sets it up and locks it down. Increasingly, they're doing everything in the browser anyway.
- It can be great for super-users and developers because everything is customisable, scriptable, hackable up the wazoo, and editing a text config file is the best configuration tool ever... The GUI is a bit pants, but real users use bash/zsh/etc.
- In between, there's tends to be a vertical learning curve between the basics and slightly more advanced stuff.
Another yawning gap seems to be the lack of mid-range graphics software - basic photo sorting/viewing seems OK but for everything else there's... that package that you can't even name in polite company which is very powerful but has a sociopathic UI. Or, for vector, Inkscape which is... easier than writing hand-crafted SVG.
Then there's the bewildering array of desktop environments which range from the nonsense 'stuff the users - we have a theoretical model' that is Gnome to the lightweight 'I just want to tile a bunch of instances of vim and xterm' options. 150% scaling for 4k displays seems to be a lottery, too. Cinnamon seems vaguely sane but, realistically, Linux developers don't really seem to "get" GUIs and my usual Linux experience is ssh into bash/zsh from a Mac...