Whoever calls retina a gimmick is put of touch with reality and added to my ignore list.
Edit: oh i see, new member, first post - bashing apple
definitely ignore list, good bye
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What's your opinion on the MacBook Pro not being a professional's computer?
- Thread starter MacSumo
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Whoever calls retina a gimmick is put of touch with reality and added to my ignore list.
Edit: oh i see, new member, first post - bashing apple
definitely ignore list, good bye
Whoever calls retina a gimmick is put of touch with reality and added to my ignore list.
Edit: oh i see, new member, first post - bashing apple
I've been here 12 years, as you can see from the join date on my avatar, and I don't think it's crazy to call it a "gimmick," although it is a bit of an exaggeration. It's actually absurd that it took retina resolutions for us to have a 1920x1200 resolution, and given the graphics overhead, I would be very tempted by a MBP that offered that resolution natively. I don't mind a little pixelation in my fonts, and I do mind the lag and headaches (e.g., tiny images, windows and the like that don't appear right in virtual machines without tweaking, etc.).
I'm pretty in touch with reality. I just have a view that's a bit more in line with the guy you were dogging.
Sadly I do agree with the original poster. I have one of the new Retina machines and I think the main issue with these systems is the screen. I'm awaiting my 4th unit which is coming tomorrow because all my prior machines had yellow tinting problems. They were not uniform.
But beyond these defects there are real usability issues with this notebook. My main complaint is the native "retina" resolution is simply too low. 1440x900 is not high enough.
Now Apple gave us scaled resolutions you can run it 1680x1050 or 1920x1200. That's great right? No. Not really. Things don't look great at this resolution they look blurry especially when dealing with software that isn't retina ready.
To explain what I mean.. lets say you have a piece of text. It's not retina optimised so the operating system pixel doubles it both vertically and horizontally. This results in crisp straight lines on the content because there is exactly 4 pixels now representing where 1 pixel was. It's a very mathematically perfect upscale and while it doesn't look as good as retina native text it still looks sharp.
But when you use the 1680x1050 or 1920x1200 scaled resolutions that same non-retina optimised piece of text becomes very blurry because it's going through the same pixel doubling but then being scaled down to fit the 2880x1800 display.
It looks terrible. And it actually gives me a headache. So what am I to do? Not every app is Retina ready. Especially remote systems (VNC, RDP etc) that I personally use a lot.
I'm just annoyed with the computer to be honest, looking past all the defects I've had just looking at the computer for what it is when it works the screen is getting on my nerves. It is way overhyped and the pixel density is next to useless. Have a super small working area of 1440x900 or a large area where things become blurry and look horrible. Apple should have just put a 1920x1200 display in it from the beginning in my opinion.
But beyond these defects there are real usability issues with this notebook. My main complaint is the native "retina" resolution is simply too low. 1440x900 is not high enough.
Now Apple gave us scaled resolutions you can run it 1680x1050 or 1920x1200. That's great right? No. Not really. Things don't look great at this resolution they look blurry especially when dealing with software that isn't retina ready.
To explain what I mean.. lets say you have a piece of text. It's not retina optimised so the operating system pixel doubles it both vertically and horizontally. This results in crisp straight lines on the content because there is exactly 4 pixels now representing where 1 pixel was. It's a very mathematically perfect upscale and while it doesn't look as good as retina native text it still looks sharp.
But when you use the 1680x1050 or 1920x1200 scaled resolutions that same non-retina optimised piece of text becomes very blurry because it's going through the same pixel doubling but then being scaled down to fit the 2880x1800 display.
It looks terrible. And it actually gives me a headache. So what am I to do? Not every app is Retina ready. Especially remote systems (VNC, RDP etc) that I personally use a lot.
I'm just annoyed with the computer to be honest, looking past all the defects I've had just looking at the computer for what it is when it works the screen is getting on my nerves. It is way overhyped and the pixel density is next to useless. Have a super small working area of 1440x900 or a large area where things become blurry and look horrible. Apple should have just put a 1920x1200 display in it from the beginning in my opinion.
As a professional research scientist I believe the rMBP is very much a "professional's computer". Whereas I do not render or use many CPU intensive applications, I do often have 10+ programs open and often am continuously running: statistical models/test in 2 or 3 separate programs, using numerous large Office:Mac files open across the whole sweet, using 2 separate graphing programs, not to mention Aperture 2 image editing, running of citation managers, pdf managers, etc. The kit is light, the screen is simply wonderful to read on and the machine works, wakes, stays cool, and the battery lasts a long time.
I think many writers, lawyers, and medical doctors could also argue that the macbook air is a professional's computer as well.
It seems your view of what a professional requires is actually a pretty narrow field among many professions - that of a graphic designer that demands a screen bigger than 15".
Hi MacSumo
I really was just asking out of interest in what a heavy user would want.
I believe I'm what would be called a casual user on this board.
I'm a teacher and translator. Lots of word processing, some spread sheets and PPTs but I use all Mac applications, not the Microsoft Office Suite. Photography is my main hobby and I use Lightroom and a few other editing applications. Of course the usual browser use with a bunch of tabs open and some large PDF work.
I don't really do video (maybe edit something from my phone once in awhile)and I don't play games and VM use.
I currently use a late 2009 27" iMac but I want to add a laptop for mobility.
I'm planning on getting the mid-model 13" rMBP and I believe that will be enough for me for several years. I had thought I would go with a Macbook Air, but just this year I've started to need reading glasses and the retina screens seem so much better to my eyes than the Air's screen.
I did look at some Thinkpads and some of the Samsung offerings but didn't feel there was anything about them that would be better for me than the rMBP. I haven't really used Windows since XP, so I found Windows 8 a little confusing and spent time in stores trying to figure out how to use it rather than testing the laptops.
I'm not a fanboy and find some of the posturing on this site and others (both ways) gets in the way of finding out useful information. I do like OSX though and would need a compelling reason to move away from it.
I'd appreciate any suggestions from anyone and I will check them out. I live in China, so that means that I can get hands on access to almost any model from any manufacturer.
I don't think this thread is made for trolling, so since I consider it a serious topic I will respond the same way. While this isn't trolling, it is an extreme "negative view" of this product. I mean after reading your posts, I'm getting the idea you describe the 15" rMBP's as a total failure, a bad product. Let's not forget that the 15" rMBP scores over a 9/10 on almost every site, is seen as the best overall laptop if you have the money for it. Between all those reviews there are enough that are serious and their opinion's do matter imo.
Based on what I've read so far, for you professional means: laptop that doesn't get hot, has a professional/100% accurate display and lasts many years. But there lies the problem, for other "professionals" all these points might not be of high priority. I have used the new high-end Haswell 15" rMBP for a week and a half and it's certainly a fantastic product in my opinion. I mainly use Solidworks (CAD), Photoshop and Indesign. These are the program's I would probably use in the future to be a "professional" and earn money with it.
Here is an experience I had: OS X with Photoshop CS6 open, Safari with a 1080p music video on youtube & other tabs open, bunch of other OS X apps open like calendar and mail. Swipe to the right with 3 fingers and I'm in full Windows 8.1 (parallels 9), where Solidworks 2014 is running with a medium-sized assembly open (lots of different parts). Basically I only missed Indesign and I would have had all my "professional" program's running at the same time. The beauty of this experience was that I could not hear the fan at all.. and I was alone in a silent room (yes I turned of the volume of the music video to hear it). No noise. And also no heat, obviously. Everything was fast, smooth and the performance was consistent. My (LG) display has no yellow tints or any other problems, the only "problem" I seem to have is a dimmer display then most, so 100% brightness won't burn my eyes as usual.
So it really depends what you do on the device. You can't just say the rMBP is or isn't a professional's computer, there are to many different professionals. And like somebody else asked, what other laptops do you suggest? Let's say my budget is the price of the high end rMBP (2600) and I would need: lot of power (CPU and GPU) / a 15" high res screen that's at least decently color accurate / a large SSD (512GB's) / 2kg or less / thin / body that feels high end and is durable. The only other option I know is the Dell XPS 15.
Based on what I've read so far, for you professional means: laptop that doesn't get hot, has a professional/100% accurate display and lasts many years. But there lies the problem, for other "professionals" all these points might not be of high priority. I have used the new high-end Haswell 15" rMBP for a week and a half and it's certainly a fantastic product in my opinion. I mainly use Solidworks (CAD), Photoshop and Indesign. These are the program's I would probably use in the future to be a "professional" and earn money with it.
Here is an experience I had: OS X with Photoshop CS6 open, Safari with a 1080p music video on youtube & other tabs open, bunch of other OS X apps open like calendar and mail. Swipe to the right with 3 fingers and I'm in full Windows 8.1 (parallels 9), where Solidworks 2014 is running with a medium-sized assembly open (lots of different parts). Basically I only missed Indesign and I would have had all my "professional" program's running at the same time. The beauty of this experience was that I could not hear the fan at all.. and I was alone in a silent room (yes I turned of the volume of the music video to hear it). No noise. And also no heat, obviously. Everything was fast, smooth and the performance was consistent. My (LG) display has no yellow tints or any other problems, the only "problem" I seem to have is a dimmer display then most, so 100% brightness won't burn my eyes as usual.
So it really depends what you do on the device. You can't just say the rMBP is or isn't a professional's computer, there are to many different professionals. And like somebody else asked, what other laptops do you suggest? Let's say my budget is the price of the high end rMBP (2600) and I would need: lot of power (CPU and GPU) / a 15" high res screen that's at least decently color accurate / a large SSD (512GB's) / 2kg or less / thin / body that feels high end and is durable. The only other option I know is the Dell XPS 15.
I wanted to write a long answer but I guess it would be pointless so here just my personal opinion:
1. my girfriends 2.6Ghz rMBP is the coolest Mac we have owned. It's pretty cool in idle and hits around 55-60°C in photoshop. Yes I have seen it hit 95°C too, but that was a stresstest just do see how hot it can get (those CPUs are made for >100°C!)
2. her Display is fine (didn't check if it is an LG or sammy - why?! if it is perfect) and YES, it is a problem that some displays have IR and YES there are better (10-bit wide color gamut etc), but we are talking about a notebook here and it IS one of the best notebook displays on the market.
3. If someone is not happy with their Macbook it is their right to return it and if they are on a mission to tell everyone how bad and expensive Macs are, go on. As long as my/our device is fine, why should I care what others think about it....
1. my girfriends 2.6Ghz rMBP is the coolest Mac we have owned. It's pretty cool in idle and hits around 55-60°C in photoshop. Yes I have seen it hit 95°C too, but that was a stresstest just do see how hot it can get (those CPUs are made for >100°C!)
2. her Display is fine (didn't check if it is an LG or sammy - why?! if it is perfect) and YES, it is a problem that some displays have IR and YES there are better (10-bit wide color gamut etc), but we are talking about a notebook here and it IS one of the best notebook displays on the market.
3. If someone is not happy with their Macbook it is their right to return it and if they are on a mission to tell everyone how bad and expensive Macs are, go on. As long as my/our device is fine, why should I care what others think about it....
It's very rare of a CPU to "die" as the result of sustained high temperatures. As long as core temperatures stay below the maximum Tjunction, most CPU's will become obsolete long before they actually reach the end of their life spans (or before other parts of the laptop fail). The only case I've heard of CPU's actually dying is extreme overvolting, which obviously is not a concern with the MBP.
The only laptops that can remain "cool" under load with a quad-core 45W CPU are giant gaming laptops. Even relatively large workstation laptops like the Thinkpad W530 will get high surface temperatures under load. It's impossible to have cool surface temperatures in a .7" thin laptop with a 45W CPU. This is a compromise people make in order to have access to both the processing power and portability.
Color accuracy and gamut are very different things. The MBP's color accuracy is fine out of the box and better post-calibration. sRGB coverage is absolutely fine for 99% of users. The internet, video games, and the majority of applications are in sRGB and are not colorspace aware. But yes, the lack of AdobeRGB coverage does make the display unsuitable for serious photo work, as AdobeRGB is needed for printers.
>CPU throttling issues
As far as I'm aware, the rMBP does not have major CPU throttling issues. At most, it looks like it may clock down .2ghz or so, but definitely not enough to really affect render/compile/whatever times.
This is a misinterpretation of the original post by riggster. By "professional", riggster is specifically referring to professional photo/video work, which is far more sensitive to having a wide-gamut display than any other sort of "professional" work.
serious question: which notebook in this price category (~2000-2500$) DO utilize full adobeRGB display? I think HP Dreamcolor Displays and maybe some Precisions?
First of all, MacBook Pro is not a specialised niche workstation machine, its an all-purpose mobile workstation. The MBP is a true jack of all trades - for every particular task, there is a laptop that would do that task better - but the MBP is about packing a lot of power and decent quality into a compact, mobile form. If the OP is looking for a specialised photo/video editing workstation, there are Precisions and Elitebooks for that.
Now a few additional remarks:
- the rMBP display is 'good enough' on the go. For serious work, most photographers would probably use an external display anyway.
- the temps do not matter as long as the computer is performing as expected. I am regularly running long-lasting simulations on my rMBP which push all 8 virtual cores to 100%. Never had any problems with overheating. Same goes for gaming. Speaking of 'burning fingers' is just silly. It gets warm, thats it. Nothing wrong with that.
- there is no point of putting a 10bit panel in a MBP because OS X does not support 10bit color output in the first place. So yes, already this makes it less suitable for professional photo editing work (but see the P.P.S.)
- I wonder why the mythos of 'macs being for photographers' still persist. Photoshop is clearly more stable and performs better on Windows these days. The only thing OS X offers over Windows is convenience - but if all you do is edit photos, then you don't need it.
P.S. Equating the narrow niche of photo/video editing to any type of professional occupation is silly in the best case and quite insulting in the worst. I am a 'professional' scientist. I use Macs because they are the best computers for my job I have tried so far. And I have work with most of the OS flavours which exist out there. Now, if the OP would have argued for 'MBP being less optimal for professional photo/video editing then a specialised workstation', I would have to agree.
P.P.S. Here is an interesting thread discussing the sate of 10bit color on major OSes. I am a total noob, so I have no idea, but people who write there seem to know what they are talking about. A very interesting read, IMO.
Now a few additional remarks:
- the rMBP display is 'good enough' on the go. For serious work, most photographers would probably use an external display anyway.
- the temps do not matter as long as the computer is performing as expected. I am regularly running long-lasting simulations on my rMBP which push all 8 virtual cores to 100%. Never had any problems with overheating. Same goes for gaming. Speaking of 'burning fingers' is just silly. It gets warm, thats it. Nothing wrong with that.
- there is no point of putting a 10bit panel in a MBP because OS X does not support 10bit color output in the first place. So yes, already this makes it less suitable for professional photo editing work (but see the P.P.S.)
- I wonder why the mythos of 'macs being for photographers' still persist. Photoshop is clearly more stable and performs better on Windows these days. The only thing OS X offers over Windows is convenience - but if all you do is edit photos, then you don't need it.
P.S. Equating the narrow niche of photo/video editing to any type of professional occupation is silly in the best case and quite insulting in the worst. I am a 'professional' scientist. I use Macs because they are the best computers for my job I have tried so far. And I have work with most of the OS flavours which exist out there. Now, if the OP would have argued for 'MBP being less optimal for professional photo/video editing then a specialised workstation', I would have to agree.
P.P.S. Here is an interesting thread discussing the sate of 10bit color on major OSes. I am a total noob, so I have no idea, but people who write there seem to know what they are talking about. A very interesting read, IMO.
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It used to be a "pro" when
- we had the choice to upgrade them ourselves (HD, ram)
- when we had line in port (this was very usefull for music producers)
- matte screen (perfect for photographers, photoshop people)
Now you get macbook AIR i7 for cheaper than the pro and it outperforms a retina pro... so whats the point of buying a heavier, less battery life rmbp?
waste of money, considering that apple is getting rid of retinas due to old stocks, before they move to new display IGZO. Not to mention retina is very bad for the eyes.
- we had the choice to upgrade them ourselves (HD, ram)
- when we had line in port (this was very usefull for music producers)
- matte screen (perfect for photographers, photoshop people)
Now you get macbook AIR i7 for cheaper than the pro and it outperforms a retina pro... so whats the point of buying a heavier, less battery life rmbp?
waste of money, considering that apple is getting rid of retinas due to old stocks, before they move to new display IGZO. Not to mention retina is very bad for the eyes.
This thread is hilarious... so many people trying to show how their machine is a "professional"... professional is the person, not the computer. Personally, I am indeed a professional, and my work gets the quality attention and product in keeping with that description.... regardless of my computer. I happen to choose Mac to assist me.
While your other 2 points make sense, I disagree with the line-in port being useful for music producers.
I would assume most music producers would use an external USB soundcard with support for more than two channels.
Yeah for professional use I agree, but if your on the go and wanna record something via 3.5mm jack it was handy.
Yup. It still is better if they could still include a line in jack should it not take up too much space, which it doesn't.
If anything, Retina is better for the eyes. And no way is Apple dropping Retina in HiDPI mode. Moving to IGZO, yes, but Retina in its current form.
I tested at least 20 macbook pros. If the CPUs are at 90c or above (typically 100C), the top area of the keyboard is burning hot.
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I know, I had the same problems. I don't come here with lies. I am pointing out obvious flaws with the rMBP. It just so happens that some people think I'm trying to troll, when the problems are so serious, it appears as if I am.
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If I were to promote anything, it would be a free OS. I think the rMBP is good for at least trying to make decent hardware, and OSX is more usable/polished than others. My 2 main concerns are heat and display issues on the rMBP.
Fix that and I think it will be an overall GREAT, if not awesome, machine.
Myself and a large part of my family have been using iMacs and Macbook Pros to make money for the last 10 years. Some models have problems. The only thing that bothers me is the non-upgradeability.
Any greedy corporation has it in their best interest to increase profit through any reasonable possibility. One of these possibilities is locking down your ability to upgrade so you are inclined to upgrade. The laptop market is rigged, as can be seen by the lack of innovation and purposeful use of low specs (e.g. little ram, weak cpu, 1080p resolution or less).
Heck, to the last point, rmBP 15" is 1920x1200. That is no way "Retina" the way most people think of high resolution.