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Which TB3 dock for your 15MBP?
- Thread starter richpjr
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You called it. Sounds like they're still cooking the firmware to lay down at the factory.
I agree it is probably this, and may have to do with the poor reviews for most TB2 docks (and consequent sales implications), many of which seemed to have just been released a little too early. Caldigit's USB-C dock was definitely released too early, and what is likely a great product developed terrible reviews as a consequence (and even though they released a firmware update that appears fix virtually every major issue, the User reviews from the older problematic firmware don't disappear.)
So while the wait sucks, hopefully this means the end product we get will function flawlessly, and allow us to really get our money's worth with those TB3 ports
Good price.
Hah. I thought it was bloody expensive at the time. I thought, do I really need this thing? I could buy a PS4 instead. But I can't complain now!
In almost all cases you will have one full or Mini DisplayPort and one TB3 port available for conversion to HDMI, mDP, DP, VGA, DVI etc. Any TB3 dock should be fully capable of running dual displays of any variety with the appropriate adapter, including the TS3 Lite that is now shipping.
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makes sense - I guess I am just trying to get a dock to get rid of adapters, not to have both a dock + adapters in my setup
makes sense - I guess I am just trying to get a dock to get rid of adapters, not to have both a dock + adapters in my setup
makes sense - I guess I am just trying to get a dock to get rid of adapters, not to have both a dock + adapters in my setup
You can also get appropriate cables. I'll be using a USB C to Displayport cable and a Displayport to DVI cable. No adaptors required!
I don't think USB C to HDMI cables exist yet, though. (https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/09/usb-type-c-to-hdmi-cable-specs/)
I think you meant USB USB-C docks (no this is not a typo as USB-C is the hardware and USB is the protocol going over that hardware). The TB1 and 2 docks are perfectly fine and have very good reviews.
It wasn't release too early and the firmware isn't the issue either. The problem with all of the current USB USB-C docks is the USB version they are using. They are using USB3.1 Gen 1/USB3.0 with a bandwidth of only 5Gbps and exactly that bandwidth is the root cause of all the issues. It simply isn't enough for 4k@60Hz and USB3.0 ports. You either have USB3.0 ports or 4k@60Hz. The firmware takes this into account and will drop the USB3.0 ports to USB2.0 speeds when you are using a display at 4k@60Hz or it will not go beyond 4k@30Hz in order to keep the ports running at USB3.0 speed.
Had they used USB3.1 Gen2 then none of these issues would have occurred. Hopefully the second gen USB USB-C docks will finally use it as well as the MacBook. The bandwidth is simply too small which is why none of the USB USB-C docks works fine if you max them out. If you don't use a 4k display then these docks will work fine. People using it like that are the only ones giving it a positive review.
The TB2 and TB3 docks don't have any of these issues because they have a bandwidth of 40Gbps max. They'll also work fine with 20Gbps though considering the connections they have.
Then don't use HDMI. For computer displays HDMI is a pita and with most of the displays using DVI and/or DisplayPort it is also very unnecessary. You can get cables for mini-DisplayPort to DVI, USB-C to DVI, mini-DisplayPort to DisplayPort and USB-C to DisplayPort cable so there is no need for using an adapter.makes sense - I guess I am just trying to get a dock to get rid of adapters, not to have both a dock + adapters in my setup
Of course using an adapter is often better, as one can have the option to connect to new AND old connections simply by clicking on/off the adapter. Whereas completely replacing the whole cable negates that option.
Also, I have an active DP-DP cable that allows a 10m length run (non-active DP cables only allow up to 3-5m maximum), and these cost quite a lot (though not as expensive as the optical versions!), so replacing the whole cable is a complete waste of time and money, when adapters at a fraction of the price are available. But it's good to have choices, at least, haha!
DP/mDP and TB3 are the best ports to have on these docks, as they are highly adaptable to all the legacy connections (VGA, DVI, etc.) along with HDMI. If these docks put HDMI ports, then they cannot, for example, be converted the other way to DP/mDP.
Looks like patience is going to be a virtue, while waiting for these TB3 docks to finally come through (much like the quality 2016 MBP sleeves are proving to be!).
I'm wondering, why is it that the Touchbar models are barely/not compatible with existing docks? What is so special about the Touchbar models? I would love to get a dock that supports charging, USB-C transfer speeds, and dual monitors and it is almost as painful waiting for a dock as it was to get the new MBP.
AFAIR, it's the chip used in the first few TB3 docks made by TI (Texas Instruments) was not compatible with any of the 2016 MBP's. Hence why manufacturers have had to change the chip to a newer TI one. So when these have been tested properly and certified to work, they'll ship – and yes, that's seemingly taking some time for them to do.
No, I mean't Thunderbolt 2 docks.
They
were
riddled
with
mediocre-at-best
reviews
While some are purely display-related and others User related, the basic connectivity problems (such as the inability to put HDDs into the correct sleep cycle and maintain a connection) were sometimes considerable for products that often were priced over $200-300.
I was talking on a much more basic level not involving the use of 4k displays, that 10.12.3 + the newer firmware has seemed to largely resolve, and the product has been receiving outstanding reviews since (including from some people who had issues at first, and later updated their reviews much more positively.)
I did not realize that ALL docks with USB-C input were USB 3.1 gen1 - I always assumed that some were available that were capable of USB 3.1 gen2. So that means that any and every USB dock on the market today is limited to 5 Gbps??
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Thank you, with your help I found this article that goes more in depth. https://9to5mac.com/2016/11/03/2016-macbook-pro-thunderbolt-compatibility-issues/
An adapter is bigger, more difficult to work with when you want to cleanup the cables and quite often also more expensive than the cable version (see below for a situation where it is the opposite). Also don't forget that in case of an adapter you have to work with an adapter AND a cable instead of only a cable.
Besides using such long display cables not being a really good idea, that's really the only reason not to replace the cables and actually go for an adapter instead.
Exactly. The user gets to pick what connection is needed, not the manufacturer and that makes a dock so much more versatile (e.g. buy a new display for whatever reason and you it is going to work with the dock).
One consolation: you need even more patience for the USB3.1 Gen 2 modelsLooks like patience is going to be a virtue, while waiting for these TB3 docks to finally come through (much like the quality 2016 MBP sleeves are proving to be!).
Then start reading real reviews instead of Amazon user reviews from people that hardly know the product (such as not understanding there is only 1 DisplayPort stream and thus you cannot connect 2 displays). However in this case you may actually try reading the Amazon reviews too because I wouldn't call a rating of 3.5 out of 5 stars "mediocre". If you look at the other products that are listed you see the same or even higher ratings. The only dock that doesn't have that is the Iogear one which you have listed multiple times.
And none of those are TB1/2 dock issues at all. It is well known that external disks have a lot of sleep issues and that they also cause a lot of sleep issues on Linux, Windows AND OS X (so no exceptions here). The biggest issue is still the complete misunderstanding of the amount of displays that can be connected even though the manufacturers have this clearly stated (some even with pictures!) on their websites. If you can't grasp the easily language in their explanations then you have a far bigger issue than a misbehaving dock. It seems that some people simply refuse to understand it. The only exceptions to this is the very first Thunderbolt dock that was brought to market and that one was by Belkin, who fixed it in a later revision, and the OWC TB2 dock which was also fixed in a later revision.
All of the in-depth and technical reviews from people who actually understand the product and are actually capable of reading documentation (aka the FAQ on the manufacturers website) are nothing but positive. That includes people test driving the NIC as well as the UASP support from the USB3.0 ports and the bandwidth saturation of those ports.
Yes and for most people that's OK because all they do is connect keyboard, mouse, network and a non-4k display. The bandwidth for those items is perfectly adequate.
That's an outdated article as there has been some more updates than displayed on that page. Better info can be found here. There has been some more info since then though but I currently can't find the link. Plugable has actually retracted the statement that Apple required the 83 chip since they've found that quite a lot of device with the 82 chip work just fine on the MBP 2016. I'll try to dig it up.
Btw, Texas Instruments own statement is that only the 83 chip can be used for TB3 devices. They've responded to the question on their own forum.
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What?? Wich docks are not compatible with the touchbar models? I just bought the Caldigit TS3 Lite, all reviews I saw said it is compatible with the new MBP touchbar.
It works, don't worry. They're talking about docks that fully charge the MBP (I don't think the delay has anything to do with the chipset.)
No, he's talking about docks from StarTech, Plugable, etc. that use a chip from Texas Instrument that isn't officially certified for Thunderbolt 3. These docks do work on Windows (which seems to have a very loosely implemented Thunderbolt implementation which might explain the many issues with Thunderbolt on Windows machines) but not on macOS. Manufacturers are now clearly stating that these devices (because they are not limited to docks) are Windows only.
Yes that's all obvious (although most plain video adapters are not really very big; outside of the few with additional ports), but if I have two computers (e.g. one with DP and one with TB3) then I can use the SAME CABLE and simply swap over the adapter on the fly...
Working on the DP computer, then carry on no problems. Need to use the TB3 computer, just slip on the USB-C-to-DP adapter and carry on. Rather than swap-out the whole cable that may be fitted in place or difficult to get at.
Another reason is that carrying a couple of DP cables with a small bag of adaptors gives you flexibility, instead of having to carry one or more of every type. One can simply use a DP cable for virtually all connections, simply swapping out the adapter on the front: VGA, DVI, TB1/2 (for plain display use only), USB-C, etc.
But having choice to do it either way –cables or adapters– is at least good to have.
Long cables are often very necessary – otherwise we wouldn't have bought the more expensive active one in the first place, obviously.
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Have you ever thought about getting a kvm switch?
Btw, the flexibility argument is completely moot here as we are talking about docks that are meant for use at a desk and thus aren't even remotely mobile (you'd have to carry the heavy dock plus the heavy power brick that comes with it; they outweigh the notebook).
Btw, the flexibility argument is completely moot here as we are talking about docks that are meant for use at a desk and thus aren't even remotely mobile (you'd have to carry the heavy dock plus the heavy power brick that comes with it; they outweigh the notebook).
KVM's are much more complicated devices, generally more costly, and more fiddly to deal with.
And another point I forgot to make above, that if you find a USB-A cabled device, you can simply use tiny dirt cheap C-to-A adaptors (USB 3.0 A-type 10gbps are not massively in use, as much as the USB-C gen2 10gbps now is/will be).
[doublepost=1490654930][/doublepost](Getting off the cables vs. adapters tangent, and back to the fundamental docks subject matter of this thread.)
I wondered about the value of these TB3 docks...
Taking two examples from the top (OWC 13-ports) and bottom (Belkin 9-ports) of the scale, I have taken a typical USB-C/TB3-to-whatever adapter and priced them up.
USB-C/TB3-to-adapter...
• GigEthernet: Anker $23 https://www.amazon.com/Anker-Ethernet-Including-ChromeBook-Aluminum/dp/B00ZZ6NW5E
• audio-in+out: iNinja $15 https://www.amazon.com/iNINJA-External-Adapter-Headphone-Microphone/dp/B01MPXVS8K
• DP/mDP 4K:
DP: Cables Matters $20 https://www.amazon.com/Cable-Matters-Thunderbolt-Compatible-DisplayPort/dp/B01K51GM46
mDP: Itanda $26 https://www.amazon.com/ITANDA-DisplayPort-Aluminium-resolution-ChromeBook/dp/B01N2ORP84
• USB-A:
Aukey $5 ($10 for two) https://www.amazon.com/AUKEY-USB-C-Adapter-MacBook-Nexus/dp/B01AUKU1OO
• SD cardreader: SanDisk $29 http://www.apple.com/shop/product/HKR62ZM/A/sandisk-extreme-pro-sd-uhs-ii-card-usb-c-reader
• S/PDIF: ~$30 (can't quickly find one, so gonna estimate a rough price for an affordable one).
• FW 800: There isn't one, so I have used the older TB1/2 to FW 800, as a guide:
Apple $29 http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MD464LL/A/apple-thunderbolt-to-firewire-adapter
• TB 3: Using a TB3 to TB1/2 as an example.
Apple $29 http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MMEL2AM/A/thunderbolt-3-usb-c-to-thunderbolt-2-adapter
+ 0.5m TB3-toTB3 cable: Belkin $22 http://www.apple.com/shop/product/HKK12ZM/A/belkin-thunderbolt-3-cable-05-m
(Caveats:
- I've generally avoided Apple's own, as they tend to overcharge for most of their adapters/cables; except where their's is the cheapest or only one available.
- Of course there are some cheaper or more expensive examples of each of these, but generally these are good enough for rough price estimates.
- Prices fluctuate, so again expect some minor differences.
- This is a retail price to retail price example, component pricing to component pricing would be different.)
So the ports offered multiplied by the prices above would total:
• OWC 13-ports: $257 (retailing at $300).
25 - USB-A x5.
23 - GigEthernet.
15 - audio in+out x1.
29 - FW 800.
30 - S/PDIF.
29 - SD cardreader.
26 - mDP.
58 - TB3 x2.
22 - TB3 cable.
• Belkin 9-ports: $168 (potentially retailing at $400!).
15 - USB-A x3.
23 - GigEthernet.
30 - audio in+out x2.
20 - DP.
58 - TB3 x2.
22 - TB3 cable.
So depending on what each brand is charging for these, one could argue you're paying quite a fair or large markup for the offer of a single TB3 port-to-many port docking system.
Of course, one should account that the companies who have to design, test, certify, and manufacture these deserve a decent markup. But given they lower the prices for the TB1/2 docks to more like $200, one could suspect there's clearly room for margin reductions, which is, of course, actually typical reseller procedure: high price on release, then discount later on.
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If the sleeping issues are not at least partly a problem with the dock design, why did my first two have issues where as my third one handles external and computer sleeping flawlessly, and never randomly loses hard drive connections (including with the FW chain?) None of them were used for more than one display and none of them were used for anything beyond 1080. I'm using some of the same enclosures, on the same computer, with some of the same cables, with the same OS...
[doublepost=1490664489][/doublepost]
Where do you suggest finding "real reviews"? I'm sure what you are saying is right about Amazon, and while I try to read tech site reviews to learn about features, not many professional reviews include long-term outlook.