Why are newer MacBook Pros not upgradeable

[trifid]

Here is an article written in 2001 that talks about some of the benefits and drawbacks of a socketed component vs a component that is soldered directly. Note that there aren't any hard numbers, but it explains WHY a socket can be an issue from a reliability standpoint.

http://www.imaps.org/journal/2001/q1/liu.pdf

Basically the benefits that are listed are all of your arguments for socketed RAM, and all of the drawbacks are my arguments for soldered RAM. There are good reasons for both, and I'm not saying upgradeability is a bad thing. I'm just saying that I place a higher value on reliability and I'm willing to accept the trade off.



I'm not arguing with you on this point. If a user wants more RAM, they'll have to pay Apple for the upgrade. If this is actually the reason why Apple has had increased profits is questionable, but it could be a contributing factor so I won't rule it out.

Soldered ram can actually be worse, while rare, ram modules can fail, and if that happens you'd have to replace entire logic board rather than simply removing faulty ram module and replacing it with a new one. Sure one can get Applecare but that only covers 3 years.

Considering both ocurrences are extremely rare, which one would you prefer though, unseated ram which you can re-seat easily or replace (socketed ram), or faulty soldered ram, which would force replacing entire logic board possibly resulting in you losing laptop if it's outside warranty?

 

[AZhappyjack]

Soldered ram can actually be worse, while rare, ram modules can fail, and if that happens you'd have to replace entire logic board rather than simply removing faulty ram module and replacing it with a new one. Sure one can get Applecare but that only covers 3 years.

Considering both ocurrences are extremely rare, which one would you prefer though, unseated ram which you can re-seat easily or replace (socketed ram), or faulty soldered ram, which would force replacing entire logic board possibly resulting in you losing laptop if it's outside warranty?

In my experience, components like RAM fail pretty early in their life cycle if they are going to fail - typically well within the warranty period for a new machine. In that case, Apple will repair/replace the machine at no cost to you.

With that said, however, I am disappointed by the inability to upgrade ram - even being forced to pay Apple's prices for upgraded RAM configurations.

 

[Max(IT)]

This argument doesn't fly. Dell XPS 15 is just as thin as the MacBook Pro Retina 15-inch, yet it has upgradeable RAM.

The real reason is that Apple want the most of your money out the door so Apple made it non-upgradable.

Call me back when a Dell XPS can run OS X then...

 

[tubeexperience]

Call me back when a Dell XPS can run OS X then...

What's your phone number?

http://www.tonymacx86.com/mavericks-laptop-support/137928-guide-dell-xps-9530-a.html
http://www.tonymacx86.com/yosemite-laptop-guides/144351-guide-dell-xps-9530-using-clover-uefi.html

 

[Max(IT)]

What's your phone number?

http://www.tonymacx86.com/mavericks-laptop-support/137928-guide-dell-xps-9530-a.html
http://www.tonymacx86.com/yosemite-laptop-guides/144351-guide-dell-xps-9530-using-clover-uefi.html

I meant LEGALLY ... I know for someone the term has no meaning....

 

[maflynn]

This argument doesn't fly. Dell XPS 15 is just as thin as the MacBook Pro Retina 15-inch, yet it has upgradeable RAM.

The real reason is that Apple want the most of your money out the door so Apple made it non-upgradable.

That computer is a really nice laptop, I almost bought that, when I was deciding on desktop/laptop Mac/PC.

I've done the hackintosh route myself and its a workable solution but I prefer avoiding that from now on.

 

[leman]

This argument doesn't fly. Dell XPS 15 is just as thin as the MacBook Pro Retina 15-inch, yet it has upgradeable RAM.

It still will never support anything beyond 16GB DDR3 RAM. And MBP has faster SSD. What is the point of upgradeability if you can't actually upgrade anything of substance?

 

[maxsix]

I've been waiting for the new MacBook Pros to be my first OS X computer but I've been wondering why did Apple stop making them upgradeable? I know they're thinner now, but why does that make it not upgradeable?

One of Apple’s best skills is their deft ability to charge bleeding high prices and collect the last possible penny from consumers. An even greater display of their skillful manipulation of people is obvious based on how many of their minions take Apple's side and brag about their profits. It's quite revealing to note how addicted to praising Apple, throngs of the faithful are.

Closed appliance like products from Apple keeps profits high.

 

[TRDGT4Writer]

Because Apple wants you to buy new laptop and they are making everything slimmer.

.75" chassis is slim enough...

 

[tubeexperience]

It still will never support anything beyond 16GB DDR3 RAM. And MBP has faster SSD. What is the point of upgradeability if you can't actually upgrade anything of substance?

Do you even know what you are talking about?

The Dell XPS 15 support up to 32GB DDR4 RAM.

Also, the PCIe SSD in the MacBook Pro 15 isn't faster than the PCIe SSD in the Dell XPS 15.

They are both Samsung 960 PRO M.2 PCI-Express 3.0 x4: Apple uses proprietary connector, but it's basically the same, performance wise.

 

[leman]

Do you even know what you are talking about?

The Dell XPS 15 support up to 32GB DDR4 RAM.

Yep, the refreshed, Skylake model, which supports DDR4. I am sure that once Intel releases high-end Skylakes for the 15" MBP, it will most likely come either with a 32GB option or even with 32GB stock. I was talking about the previous-gen CPUs, which only support DDR3. You can't really claim that XPS is superior due its RAM upgradeability when the difference you quote is due to the fact that it uses a newer CPU and higher-density RAM to begin with.

Also, the PCIe SSD in the MacBook Pro 15 isn't faster than the PCIe SSD in the Dell XPS 15.

Same as above. You are comparing a 2016 laptop with a laptop designed a few years ago.

 

[tubeexperience]

Yep, the refreshed, Skylake model, which supports DDR4. I am sure that once Intel releases high-end Skylakes for the 15" MBP, it will most likely come either with a 32GB option or even with 32GB stock. I was talking about the previous-gen CPUs, which only support DDR3. You can't really claim that XPS is superior due its RAM upgradeability when the difference you quote is due to the fact that it uses a newer CPU and higher-density RAM to begin with.



Same as above. You are comparing a 2016 laptop with a laptop designed a few years ago.

Please show me one of these Skylake MacBook Pro 15 so I can "properly" do the comparison.

 

[leman]

Please show me one of these Skylake MacBook Pro 15 so I can "properly" do the comparison.

I would have no issue with you or anyone else saying "The new XPS 15 is a better laptop because it has a newer CPU, same SSD, faster, higher density RAM and is also upgradeable!". That will be factually correct. However, it does not follow that "XPS 15 is a better laptop because it is upgradeable". The previous XPS was not 'better' despite its upgradeability, as it was still locked into 16GB max RAM because of DDR3 limitations.

 

[marc55]

Could care less about the XPS..

Agree, I could care less about the Dell. I had the XPS-15 (9530), and sold it after I got my MBPr, and have not looked back.

m

 

[trifid]

I would have no issue with you or anyone else saying "The new XPS 15 is a better laptop because it has a newer CPU, same SSD, faster, higher density RAM and is also upgradeable!". That will be factually correct. However, it does not follow that "XPS 15 is a better laptop because it is upgradeable". The previous XPS was not 'better' despite its upgradeability, as it was still locked into 16GB max RAM because of DDR3 limitations.

The most important point pertaining to this thread is, is soldered ram justified for thinness? It seems Dell's XPS 15 proves that this isn't necessarily the case since it beats the Macbook in thinness while also competing very well with the rest of the specs.

 

[leman]

The most important point pertaining to this thread is, is soldered ram justified for thinness? It seems Dell's XPS 15 proves that this isn't necessarily the case since it beats the Macbook in thinness while also competing very well with the rest of the specs.

I don't think that soldered RAM has much — or anything — to do with thinness. Sure, it makes it a bit more easier for the manufacture to design the mainboard, but thats about it. I believe that main reasons of soldered-on design is efficiency of production and slightly increased reliability. Its not like customers really care about upgradeability of their products anyway nowadays, nor is there a real need for it. Few years ago, RAM was expensive and we had stock RAM sizes of 512MB-2GB, upgrading from it to 4GB was indeed a noticeable boost. But nowadays we have 8-16GB in stock configurations, which usually lasts the entire useful lifespan of the machine. The truth is, if your computer is getting sluggish in general tasks, then going from 16 to 32GB is very likely not to do you any good — because what bogs you down is the speed of your CPU/GPU/RAM and not the size of your RAM.

At any rate, people have different opinions on these matters, but I think that the objectively, upgradeability does not play nearly as important a role as it did some time ago. The industry is definitely moving towards integration — its what we've seen with numerical coprocessors and memory controllers, and now start seeing with RAM and GPUs. But surprises can always happen With VR for example, GPUs are getting a boost again.

 

[trifid]

Its not like customers really care about upgradeability of their products anyway nowadays, nor is there a real need for it. Few years ago, RAM was expensive and we had stock RAM sizes of 512MB-2GB, upgrading from it to 4GB was indeed a noticeable boost. But nowadays we have 8-16GB in stock configurations,

You are joking right? I have a retina MBP from 2013 with 4GB default which at the time was barely ok. Now everyone agrees 8GB is best for el capitan and even as next OSX will likely be even more RAM hungry. Those 4GB are now obsolete.

Heck Apple is currently shipping mac minis junk in 2016 with 4gb obsolete soldered ram not 8gb/16gb as you suggest. It's planned obsolescence.

Upgrading ram is highly desirable mainstream feature and not a niche. Or what do you think genius bar guy will tell you if complain your computer is slow and ram can be upgraded? he'd recommend upgrade right? This is not niche, please lets be honest.

Now with soldered ram the recommendation is to buy new mac. It's all about planned obsolescence and upgrading at time of purchase to increase profits.

 

[tubeexperience]

I am not sure why anyone has not noticed progression of Apple's disposable culture or maybe he/she have being sticking his/her head in the sand.

The retina MacBook Pro aren't intended to be upgrade at all. Once you need more RAM or bigger SSD, you are suppose to get rid of your current computer and get a new one.

The SSD is removable on the current retina MacBook Pro, but because it wasn't intended to be upgradable, replacement is difficult to find.

I wouldn't be surprise at all if in the future, the retina MacBook Pro follows path of the retina MacBook and comes with soldered SSD making upgrading the SSD impossible.

 

[shoehornhands]

While Apple will obviously give other reasons (e.g. to make the MBP thinner / lighter), which might be true to an extent, that stuff is all secondary. The primary motivation is $$$.

First off, it pressures / forces buyers to pay for all upgrades up front / when they order the computer, where Apple charges significantly more than what you can purchase the hardware for. For example, Apple charges $200 to upgrade from 8GB to 16GB of memory in the 13" MBP (an upgrade that would cost you $35-$40 if you could do it yourself). As another example, it amounts to roughly $500 to go from the 128GB to the 512GB SSD, when you can purchase the 512GB Samsung SM951 straight up for $300.

The other part of it is that it shortens the lifespan of the computer, which means more product turnover for Apple. Whereas people might typically bump the RAM, or buy a new battery (when it starts losing charge) to squeeze another year or two out of the computer, they're now more likely to purchase a new one instead.

On top of that, Apple's somewhat unique position in the market (in that they don't really have competition as far as OS X is concerned) means that they can get away with using any hardware they want, while experiencing very little (if any) pressure to update it (e.g. even if they update the MacBook Pro line with outdated parts, as long as they're a relative upgrade, they can get away with it / it isn't likely to affect sales).

 

[\-V-/]

Yes, you can replace the SSD with a proprietary third-party SSD from OWC that is ridiculously slower than the one it comes with.

 

[leman]

While Apple will obviously give other reasons (e.g. to make the MBP thinner / lighter), which might be true to an extent, that stuff is all secondary. The primary motivation is $$$.

Of course it is! I don't see anyone arguing to contrary. Apple does soldered RAM because its more convenient to them and because the customers don't really mind. As simple as that.

You are joking right? I have a retina MBP from 2013 with 4GB default which at the time was barely ok.

Why didn't you get the 8GB version then? The only difference with slotted vs. upgradeable RAM is that you need to plan beforehand. It seems to me that you did not.

Upgrading ram is highly desirable mainstream feature and not a niche. Or what do you think genius bar guy will tell you if complain your computer is slow and ram can be upgraded? he'd recommend upgrade right? This is not niche, please lets be honest.

I am not sure why anyone has not noticed progression of Apple's disposable culture or maybe he/she have being sticking his/her head in the sand.

I am an IT manager of an university department. We own about 60 or so computers, most of them Macs. In the last 3 years, I didn't run into a single case where upgrading a computer or tinkering with it in any way would make economical sense. Sure, you need to plan ahead a bit. Don't get a 4GB machine if you know that it won't be good enough for the tasks you need to do. My laptop has 16GB DDR3 stock — which is an absolute maximum what that CPU can take with two RAM slots, so upgradeability would not change anything, and a 512GB SSD — more storage than I'd need in the next 3 years. Btw, we do own those 4GB Mac Minis (and I bought two more the day before yesterday) for administrative work, student research stations and as a backup open directory/database server replica — and guess what — nobody complains about performance, because they are more then adequate to the task at hand.

 

[trifid]

Why didn't you get the 8GB version then? The only difference with slotted vs. upgradeable RAM is that you need to plan beforehand. It seems to me that you did not.

What you suggest is just not viable/practical for a lot of people, not everyone can afford an additional $200-800 at the time of purchase on top of already premium prices to upgrade RAM/SSD, but they certainly may be able to do so a few years later as needed if the machine is expandable.

 

[tubeexperience]

I am an IT manager of an university department. We own about 60 or so computers, most of them Macs. In the last 3 years, I didn't run into a single case where upgrading a computer or tinkering with it in any way would make economical sense. Sure, you need to plan ahead a bit. Don't get a 4GB machine if you know that it won't be good enough for the tasks you need to do. My laptop has 16GB DDR3 stock — which is an absolute maximum what that CPU can take with two RAM slots, so upgradeability would not change anything, and a 512GB SSD — more storage than I'd need in the next 3 years. Btw, we do own those 4GB Mac Minis (and I bought two more the day before yesterday) for administrative work, student research stations and as a backup open directory/database server replica — and guess what — nobody complains about performance, because they are more then adequate to the task at hand.

So the real solution is to max out one's credit card and buy the computer with the highest specs possible.

Brilliant solution. /s

The reality distortion field is still going strong.

 

[leman]

So the real solution is to max out one's credit card and buy the computer with the highest specs possible.

No, the real solution is to evaluate one's needs and get a computer than will fulfil them. It is simply cheaper for us to pay the Apple premium upfront and get the 8GB machine rater then get a 4GB machine and then install aftermarket memory. The RAM itself is cheap but the labour (secretary, accountant, technician) is not. Besides, it takes valuable time (even though its few minutes) that the people can spend on more important things.

Although I certainly agree with trifid that delayed upgrades make sense to some customers who don't want to pay the upgrade sum upfront. IMO, Apple should push minimal stock configuration to 8GB across the board. Its a disgrace that Air still comes with 4GB stock.

 

[tubeexperience]

No, the real solution is to evaluate one's needs and get a computer than will fulfil them. It is simply cheaper for us to pay the Apple premium upfront and get the 8GB machine rater then get a 4GB machine and then install aftermarket memory. The RAM itself is cheap but the labour (secretary, accountant, technician) is not. Besides, it takes valuable time (even though its few minutes) that the people can spend on more important things.

Although I certainly agree with trifid that delayed upgrades make sense to some customers who don't want to pay the upgrade sum upfront. IMO, Apple should push minimal stock configuration to 8GB across the board. Its a disgrace that Air still comes with 4GB stock.

What you are saying is that one should be satisfied buying a computer that is completely inflexible and that if one needs more RAM or bigger SSD in the future, the solution is to buy another computer.

Also, upgrading the RAM is not nearly as difficult as you make it to be and doesn't need a technician. My non-tech-savvy mother was able to upgrade the RAM on her Asus laptop by removing the back cover and replacing the RAM.