Why are newer MacBook Pros not upgradeable

[leman]

What you are saying is that one should be satisfied buying a computer that is completely inflexible and that if one needs more RAM or bigger SSD in the future, the solution is to buy another computer.

Something like that, yes. I don't think however that I said that one should be satisfied, its just that most people are.

Also, upgrading the RAM is not nearly as difficult as you make it to be and doesn't need a technician. My non-tech-savvy mother was able to upgrade the RAM on her Asus laptop by removing the back cover and replacing the RAM.

I was talking specifically about professional environment, and even more specifically, about my professional experience as someone who runs the IT aspect of this environment. People are paid to do their work, not tinker around with work machines. For home user, its obviously a different thing. On the other hand, if a home users computer starts to lag playing movies, playing games or processing excel tables, upgrading from 8GB to 16GB is very unlikely to do them any good.

P.S. I think that we both made our personal feelings about the matter fairly clear. In the end, everyone needs to choose the tools that do one wants them to do. For me, upgradeability is probably the least important feature in a computer, so as long as Apple caters to my professional and personal needs in a computing tool, I will continue buying their products, even if they become absolutely sealed. Users who absolutely need upgradeability should give their feedback to Apple and ultimately, vote with their money. I am sure that if a critical mass of Apple customers wants upgradeability, they will certainly be heard.

P.P.S. My bicycle is also not user-serviceable for the most part 🙂 At the same time, its super-silent and virtually maintenance-free. So I guess I'm just that type of guy. On the other hand, I love maintaining the chain on my motorcycle and otherwise tinkering with it. Go figure.

 

[shoehornhands]

I honestly don’t understand why people always make excuses / try to justify the actions of Apple. It’s not some big secret what they’re doing, so just call it what it is. They’re exploiting their rather unique position in the market, so as to maximize profit.

The people making the decisions got to where they are for this very reason (if they had some alternative view of how the company should operate / not in (what is believed to be) the best financial interest of the company, they wouldn’t be where they are in the first place). Heck, remember Steve Jobs was essentially removed from his own company for this very reason. Apple isn't some evil company, but altruism isn't too high on their list of priorities either. They’re no different from any other large, public company.

 

[tubeexperience]

Something like that, yes. I don't think however that I said that one should be satisfied, its just that most people are.

How are you able to determine that "most" users are satisfy?

Also, I assume that there are a bulk of users that does nothing more than browse the web, type emails, do spreadsheets and documents, so of cause, they are satisfy.

I was talking specifically about professional environment, and even more specifically, about my professional experience as someone who runs the IT aspect of this environment. People are paid to do their work, not tinker around with work machines. For home user, its obviously a different thing. On the other hand, if a home users computer starts to lag playing movies, playing games or processing excel tables, upgrading from 8GB to 16GB is very unlikely to do them any good.

P.S. I think that we both made our personal feelings about the matter fairly clear. In the end, everyone needs to choose the tools that do one wants them to do. For me, upgradeability is probably the least important feature in a computer, so as long as Apple caters to my professional and personal needs in a computing tool, I will continue buying their products, even if they become absolutely sealed. Users who absolutely need upgradeability should give their feedback to Apple and ultimately, vote with their money. I am sure that if a critical mass of Apple customers wants upgradeability, they will certainly be heard.

Well, you need to realized that there are a lot of home users and business users that don't get their own ITs. If they want something done, they often have to do it themselves.

They also don't have upgrade cycles (ie. replace computers every 4 years) like some businesses do, so they do upgrades to the computers to extend the usefulness of the devices.

P.P.S. My bicycle is also not user-serviceable for the most part 🙂 At the same time, its super-silent and virtually maintenance-free. So I guess I'm just that type of guy. On the other hand, I love maintaining the chain on my motorcycle and otherwise tinkering with it. Go figure.

Are you serious? Bicycles are intended to user-serviceable.

Also, how are bicycles maintenance-free?

Do you not change the tires, inner tubes, brakes, brake cables, chains, bottom brackets, etc.?

 

[leman]

How are you able to determine that "most" users are satisfied?

Mac sales have actually been increasing. This means that people are interested in buying them more then ever, despite the non-upgradeability part.

Also, I assume that there are a bulk of users that does nothing more than browse the web, type emails, do spreadsheets and documents, so of cause, they are satisfy.

Yep. And most people who need 16GB in their laptop, need it now, not three years down the road.

Are you serious? Bicycles are intended to user-serviceable. Also, how are bicycles maintenance-free? Do you not change the tires, inner tubes, brakes, brake cables, chains, bottom brackets, etc.?

I said 'for most part' 😉 Sealed gear hub, no chain (so no cleaning/oiling), closed hydraulic brake. Of course wearable parts like brake pads tires etc. can be easily exchanged, but you only need to do it once per few years. But I can't really do any service with the gearhub or the belt without special tools or knowledge. I take it to a yearly inspection, but other then that, I never have to do anything on it, except occasionally pumping the tires.

 

[shoehornhands]

Of course it is! I don't see anyone arguing to contrary. Apple does soldered RAM because its more convenient to them and because the customers don't really mind. As simple as that.

They do soldered RAM because it makes them more money, period. To say that customers "don't really mind," is like saying customers don't mind paying more money for something to boost Apple's profits. There's a big difference between "not minding" because you're naive (i.e. you simply don't have enough info to "mind"), and because you're genuinely fine with something.

 

[tubeexperience]

Mac sales have actually been increasing. This means that people are interested in buying them more then ever, despite the non-upgradeability part.

Funny how you are able to state that as facts. Maybe people hated Windows 8 and that drove up Mac sales. Maybe Apple open up more Apple Stores in more countries and that increased Mac sales. Maybe something else cause Mac sales to go up.

It doesn't follow that most users wants to have non-upgradable computers.

The conclusion does not follow the premise.

Yep. And most people who need 16GB in their laptop, need it now, not three years down the road.

Again, how are you able to determined this?

 

[leman]

Funny how you are able to state that as facts. Maybe people hated Windows 8 and that drove up Mac sales. Maybe Apple open up more Apple Stores in more countries and that increased Mac sales. Maybe something else cause Mac sales to go up.

It doesn't follow that most users wants to have non-upgradable computers.

The conclusion does not follow the premise.

Well, increase in Mac sales is a fact. Also, please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that customers buy more Macs BECAUSE they are not upgradeable. I said that they buy more Macs DESPITE them being non-upgradeable. Which means, that regardless of all the other relevant factors, the issue of upgradeability does not seem to play a substantial role. As in: it does not seem to avert customers from Macs. My conclusion is therefore that there are other, stronger motives that drive customers. Obviously there is no direct evidence. But there is even less evidence for your point. Because I can at least argue that the market performance so far is inconsistent with the hypothesis that having an upgradeable computer is very important to a customer customers.

Again, how are you able to determined this?

Dunno, 15 years of experience with software design and algorithm development, computer science (among other things, teaching at a university), building and repairing computers, managing large IT workflows, stuff like that. Experience I guess. Besides, benchmarks and reviews. Again, if your 8GB machine will bog down on a website or a spreadsheet after a few years, its very unlikely to be because the lack of RAM but rather the combination of CPU/RAM/GPU. Now, if you are doing heavy video editing, work with multiple VMs, do heavy duty numerical workflows — then you need as much RAM as you can get NOW, not 5 years later. The demands are slowing down. CPUs are barely becoming any faster (which limits the amount RAM they can utilise efficiently) and asset size is already reaching a very high quality level. The algorithms are programming frameworks we use nowadays are already so full of indirections that throwing more RAM at it won't help (in fact, we start going back towards optimisation and efficiency). The next big jump in memory requirement will come with even higher resolution screens and VR, which needs higher-quality assets and also new parallel data-based algorithms, among others machine learning, offline speech recognition, reasoning systems etc. However, these applications will first and foremost need a qualitative boost in processing power rather then just quantitative boost in available cache. That is why I regard upgradeability in this day and age mostly as a moot point. It only helps when quantity is the essential factor, but does not do much for quality. The only part of my MBP that I would like to see upgradeable is the SSD, because thats a) where quantity is very important and b) it would allow me to swap systems, which is occasionally useful (e.g. when traveling to countries like US, which tend to be paranoid about security).

 

[h00ligan]

In my opinion a machine which can't even have ram upgraded really shouldn't have a pro moniker. Neither should every mbp that doesn't have a discreet graphics card.


The lower end 15 had discreet and they scrapped it. To me there's very little if anything that any of the current pro lineup which don't have discreet video can do much faster than any of the airs. I just think Apple has one lapto that can be considered pro at this point. And that's if you're feeling generous about he lack of upgrade able parts.

Genuinely I feel Apple have completely lost the plot with their numerous laptop lines. The air for example. Really? The MacBook and the pro lines have so much overlap now what's the point. And as for anyone looking to do serious editing you've got one choice. And it's big.

It's a major put off that they've lost the plot so much. I love their hardware design and the os but they make one laptop that suits me and it's way too expensive for what it is. So it's time to hit up tonymac and find a comparable Windows machine which can be hackintoshed with little to no effort.

For two grand on the high end 13 and low end 15 big should have discreet video. And all the pro line should have user replaceable ram and disk. I'd take half a pound more. Half an inch more. For five times more machine.

Lost. The. Plot.

 

[jerryk]

Does anyone know if the ssd connector on a rmbp 13 2015 is standard PCIe m.2? I would like to upgrade.

 

[tubeexperience]

Does anyone know if the ssd connector on a rmbp 13 2015 is standard PCIe m.2? I would like to upgrade.

No, it is NOT: it's a proprietary connector.

 

[T5BRICK]

It doesn't follow that most users wants to have non-upgradable computers.

Most people just don't care. How may times and how many ways do you need this stated?

The folks on this forum who are interested in being able to upgrade their computer are just a small sample of the entire user base. A sample that doesn't represent the majority. Most people aren't interested in upgrading their computers.

The IT department where I work maintains about 100 PCs. When one doesn't suit the needs of the user anymore it is replaced with a system that does. They don't spend time replacing processors or video cards or upgrading the RAM or HDD.

 

[JTToft]

Does anyone know if the ssd connector on a rmbp 13 2015 is standard PCIe m.2? I would like to upgrade.

- It is not. The only third party upgrades that exist for it are from OWC:
http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/ssd/owc/macbook-pro-retina-display/2013

Otherwise, an original part is the only option - and quite possibly a better one as the OWC ones are terribly slow in comparison and not all that much cheaper.

 

[moosington]

Most people just don't care. How may times and how many ways do you need this stated?

The folks on this forum who are interested in being able to upgrade their computer are just a small sample of the entire user base. A sample that doesn't represent the majority. Most people aren't interested in upgrading their computers.

The IT department where I work maintains about 100 PCs. When one doesn't suit the needs of the user anymore it is replaced with a system that does. They don't spend time replacing processors or video cards or upgrading the RAM or HDD.

This is really just about people not being able to circumvent Apple and more cheaply upgrade their device on day one. They're the minority, but it's pretty justifiable.

When the next gen MacBooks get released, it'll be my first MacBook (+ my wife will upgrade hers. Ouch). When I see the upgrade prices it hurts a bit because my wife needs a 512gb hdd + 16gb of RAM and I know I could source that far cheaper on my own.

But I remind myself that you get what you pay for. If you don't feel that way, you may as well stop posting here and pick up a Windows laptop.

Apple supports their devices for YEARS, which can't really be said about other companies. My Asus laptop frustrates the hell out of me, and is stuck on W7 because it never got a driver update to W8 and beyond. You get OSX and yearly feature updates, something MS has never done with Windows. You either get security patches, or a new OS after 4 or 5 years that is full of surprises. Aside from that, everything in your device is top end. The build quality and materials don't cut corners at all.

No other companies really offer that. Surface, Asus and Dell owners with comparable Skylake products all have some pretty big QC complaints. I just don't want to deal with that anymore.

So it sucks to bite the bullet and pay an extra few hundred dollars when you buy it, but it will be a fantastic, stress free device for years to come. Most Apple owners aren't "disillusioned" by Apple advertising, they just like that the device is more frustration free (and live in a happier world that doesn't worry about specs).

 

[h00ligan]

Most people just don't care. How may times and how many ways do you need this stated?

The folks on this forum who are interested in being able to upgrade their computer are just a small sample of the entire user base. A sample that doesn't represent the majority. Most people aren't interested in upgrading their computers.

The IT department where I work maintains about 100 PCs. When one doesn't suit the needs of the user anymore it is replaced with a system that does. They don't spend time replacing processors or video cards or upgrading the RAM or HDD.

MacBook Pro machines used to be made for artists - who want to be able to upgrade at least ram as larger sticks become available and certainly want discreet graphics - even for lightweight stuff like Lightroom it helps - half the photography plugins used professionally won't run without it the other half run poorly.


Overall whether most people want it is a bad statement.. Most people don't want or need a pro level machine - most people can use a MacBook.. Hell most people can use an iPad and a keyboard these days.

Most PRO users do care and that's who MacBook PRO machines are made for. - not gamers, not people word processing or using iPhoto.. Pro applications.

And if you polled 100 final cut, relative cloud, and Audio engineers how many of them would say they wanted discrete graphics and the ability to upgrade at least ram and probably ssd drives when larger cheaper options become available.. My guess would be the lions share.


They just don't have a choice - apples gotten great at making a hundred models and offering very little real choice in their laptops lines.

 

[T5BRICK]

MacBook Pro machines used to be made for artists - who want to be able to upgrade at least ram as larger sticks become available and certainly want discreet graphics - even for lightweight stuff like Lightroom it helps - half the photography plugins used professionally won't run without it the other half run poorly.


Overall whether most people want it is a bad statement.. Most people don't want or need a pro level machine - most people can use a MacBook.. Hell most people can use an iPad and a keyboard these days.

Most PRO users do care and that's who MacBook PRO machines are made for. - not gamers, not people word processing or using iPhoto.. Pro applications.

"Pro" is a marketing term. It doesn't mean anything. And I'm not sure where discrete graphics is coming in. The thread is specifically about the lack of upgradeability on the 13 and 15" rMBP.

And if you polled 100 final cut, relative cloud, and Audio engineers how many of them would say they wanted discrete graphics and the ability to upgrade at least ram and probably ssd drives when larger cheaper options become available.. My guess would be the lions share.


They just don't have a choice - apples gotten great at making a hundred models and offering very little real choice in their laptops lines.

If you want to get specific results...sure just poll a small group of users with specific needs. 🙄 If you want accurate results, you'd poll a random sample. You'd find that most people don't care. Most aren't going to upgrade their computer even if it's an option.

Apple doesn't care WHO is using their laptops, they just care that they sell. The decisions that they make are going to be geared to the majority of the market they are serving. If the majority wanted upgradeability and their current course negatively impacted their sales, you can bet your ass that Apple would be making an upgradeable laptop. The fact that Apple is experiencing growth every year even after they started soldering everything in shows that most users just don't care and will buy one anyway. Users like yourself and I are in the minority.

 

[tubeexperience]

"Pro" is a marketing term. It doesn't mean anything. And I'm not sure where discrete graphics is coming in. The thread is specifically about the lack of upgradeability on the 13 and 15" rMBP.

MacBook Pro used to be for professionals (ie. people who use Final Cut, Logic, Aperture), but these days, MacBook "Pro" are gimmicks for people who have too much money on their hands.

Of cause they don't care about upgradability if all they do is browse the web and type documents & spreadsheets.

The IT department where I work maintains about 100 PCs. When one doesn't suit the needs of the user anymore it is replaced with a system that does. They don't spend time replacing processors or video cards or upgrading the RAM or HDD.

Ding! Ding! Ding! That just it!!!

A lot of people don't have IT departments that they can call to replace their computers with ones that "better suit their needs" nor do they have IT departments that replace their computers with new ones every few years.

 

[T5BRICK]

Ding! Ding! Ding! That just it!!!

A lot of people don't have IT departments that they can call to replace their computers with ones that "better suit their needs" nor do they have IT departments that replace their computers with new ones every few years.

I think you just need to accept that you're in the minority and no amount of complaining is going to do you any good. If you want an upgradeable computer you'll have to shop elsewhere. Apple doesn't think you're their main customer. If enough people do the same Apple might change(hint: they won't because most people don't care).

Apparently Dell makes a really good upgradeable computer that you seem to like. Buy one of those?

 

[h00ligan]

"Pro" is a marketing term. It doesn't mean anything. And I'm not sure where discrete graphics is coming in. The thread is specifically about the lack of upgradeability on the 13 and 15" rMBP.



If you want to get specific results...sure just poll a small group of users with specific needs. 🙄 If you want accurate results, you'd poll a random sample. You'd find that most people don't care. Most aren't going to upgrade their computer even if it's an option.

Apple doesn't care WHO is using their laptops, they just care that they sell. The decisions that they make are going to be geared to the majority of the market they are serving. If the majority wanted upgradeability and their current course negatively impacted their sales, you can bet your ass that Apple would be making an upgradeable laptop. The fact that Apple is experiencing growth every year even after they started soldering everything in shows that most users just don't care and will buy one anyway. Users like yourself and I are in the minority.

Man you're unrelenting.

Discreet graphics were brought in because it's another way in which the pro moniker has come to mean nothing.. You and I basically agree I think, the pro moniker means nothing - it's a way they market to make it sound better than it is.. My point is it's a shame they don't care about the people to whom they were selling laptops before they were the new darling.

Specific results aren't what I'm after.. What I'm after are results from pro users - for whom that machine was initially made. Clearly it's not made for pros anymore - that's the whole point of this thread... The fact that Apple no longer makes a machine suitable for true pro users which is a laptop by allowing yugpradability . Most people aren't even remotely considering a $2000-2500 computer - if you think they aren't you're out of your mind. So lets' cut the random sample of a large group.. Those people are meant to buy the MacBook or the air.. Not the pro. The pro is meant to be for .... PRO users.

I agree Apple only cares if they sell t this point, it wsn't always that way. They served a niche audience in professional creative users - who along with education contracts built the company. The prevalence of iOS devices and mainstream appeal has caused them to completely forget their core audience.

As it sits right now there is exactly one laptop they make which is acceptable for professional creative users. The high end 15". From what I see with photographers this is pushing them away to Windows, en masse. They're getting tired of spending 2500 every two years because they can't get more ram or a larger hard drive - especially the latter.

I'd successfully argue that the Alienware r2 is a WAY better computer based on hardware than the MacBook line -- and it's a grand cheaper, and lighter. SO when Apple are losing their professional users to Alienware -and dell - and Lenovo - to me that means they're failing.

Did you check the laptop sales numbers - since you stated people would stop buying - as far as I can tell annecdotally it's happening - go visit Fred Miranda and see the number of people fed up with a company that puts all it's focus on creating an app based Eco system and ignoring the core needs of Professional users.

At the end of the day you and I agree on more than we disagree on - Apple doesn't care about pro users, the pro name means nothing anymore - it's only a marketing term.

THat's why they don't make upgradeable ram and hard drive - they want people buying new laptops every three years - not every ten. It's a bullying way to do business and it's the plan of those who have run out of ways to innovate - which clearly Apple have in their laptop line..

 

[priorytools]

I've been waiting for the new MacBook Pros to be my first OS X computer but I've been wondering why did Apple stop making them upgradeable? I know they're thinner now, but why does that make it not upgradeable?

$

 

[T5BRICK]

Man you're unrelenting.

Funny. You claim I'm unrelenting and then you drop a wall of text. 😛

Discreet graphics were brought in because it's another way in which the pro moniker has come to mean nothing.. You and I basically agree I think, the pro moniker means nothing - it's a way they market to make it sound better than it is.. My point is it's a shame they don't care about the people to whom they were selling laptops before they were the new darling.

Specific results aren't what I'm after.. What I'm after are results from pro users - for whom that machine was initially made. Clearly it's not made for pros anymore - that's the whole point of this thread... The fact that Apple no longer makes a machine suitable for true pro users which is a laptop by allowing yugpradability . Most people aren't even remotely considering a $2000-2500 computer - if you think they aren't you're out of your mind. So lets' cut the random sample of a large group.. Those people are meant to buy the MacBook or the air.. Not the pro. The pro is meant to be for .... PRO users.

I agree Apple only cares if they sell t this point, it wsn't always that way. They served a niche audience in professional creative users - who along with education contracts built the company. The prevalence of iOS devices and mainstream appeal has caused them to completely forget their core audience.

I'm sure if you cherry pick the results based on a niche market, you'll get the results you want. Then again, if Apple continued to just target this niche market they may not be around anymore.

As it sits right now there is exactly one laptop they make which is acceptable for professional creative users. The high end 15". From what I see with photographers this is pushing them away to Windows, en masse. They're getting tired of spending 2500 every two years because they can't get more ram or a larger hard drive - especially the latter.

I'd successfully argue that the Alienware r2 is a WAY better computer based on hardware than the MacBook line -- and it's a grand cheaper, and lighter. SO when Apple are losing their professional users to Alienware -and dell - and Lenovo - to me that means they're failing.

Did you check the laptop sales numbers - since you stated people would stop buying - as far as I can tell annecdotally it's happening - go visit Fred Miranda and see the number of people fed up with a company that puts all it's focus on creating an app based Eco system and ignoring the core needs of Professional users.

From the numbers I've seen, the computer market in general is facing declining sales numbers. This includes Apple, but they're taking less of a hit compared to the competition. If users are abandoning Apple, they're not going to Dell or Lenovo. They're simply not buying computers. You're able to do more and more with your phone now, and in general, even lower end computers can accomplish all but the most demanding tasks. Think about it. Current iPhones and iPads are approaching the computational power of computers sold 5-10 years ago.

At the end of the day you and I agree on more than we disagree on - Apple doesn't care about pro users, the pro name means nothing anymore - it's only a marketing term.

Sure, I can definitely agree with that. Pro is just a marketing term and I think it always has been. Since Apple started using Intel processors they've slowly been moving more toward the mainstream. But like I said previously, their old model wasn't sustainable.

THat's why they don't make upgradeable ram and hard drive - they want people buying new laptops every three years - not every ten. It's a bullying way to do business and it's the plan of those who have run out of ways to innovate - which clearly Apple have in their laptop line..

I still disagree here. As much as you, I and many others on here like the ability to upgrade, I think the general market just doesn't care.

 

[JTToft]

Current iPhones and iPads are approaching the computational power of computers sold 5-10 years ago.

- And then there's the high-end iPad Pro which is actually more powerful than the Retina MacBook.

(I also just saw an article with a teardown of current MagSafe adaptors. Apparently, the controller in those is more powerful than the processor in the original Macintosh...)

 

[MrAverigeUser]

I bet 99,9% of customers purchasing soldered and glued pieces in their new MBPs just don´t even KNOW they are glued and soldered and so aren´t still exchangeable. Because apple does´t mention this sort of U-turn in customer policy at all and the blue-clothed vendors in the glittering apple shops don´t tell them neither.

APPLE just hides this fact like a military secret.

I am pretty sure that:

1) IF the customers would be informed that they cannot alter or exchange the interior pieces - NOT EVEN THE SSDs!! - in their MBPs many of them would NOT buy. At least if they realize that they are obliged to send in their apple devices even with all their private data on the SOLDERED SSDs and cannot stay with their old SSd when switching to another apple model later-on.

2) I am pretty sure that apple is obliged by law to INFORM correctly their customers BEFORE PURCHASING that - in CONTRARY to all the resting worldwide market - they force their customers to buy crippled system.
I am amused in looking forward to future class action lawsuit against hiding these highest-important informations concerning usability and value of apple products.

3) The "new" apple policy about customer-slavery by all-glued and soldered parts which should be exchangeable for good and important reasons will further detoriate apple´s already melting reputation - as soon as enough customers get aware of this dead-end-road.

(The way some people defend bad customer policy - like some users do here in this forum - is shocking me again and again…)
[doublepost=1458913537][/doublepost]

It still will never support anything beyond 16GB DDR3 RAM. And MBP has faster SSD. What is the point of upgradeability if you can't actually upgrade anything of substance?

faster RAM has no effect on performance at all in REAL LIFE….

ask any IT-Pro, he/she will admit this… except for use in big servers perhaps...

 

[JTToft]

1) IF the customers would be informed that they cannot alter or exchange the interior pieces - NOT EVEN THE SSDs!! - in their MBPs many of them would NOT buy. At least if they realize that they are obliged to send in their apple devices even with all their private data on the SOLDERED SSDs and cannot stay with their old SSd when switching to another apple model later-on.

- The only machine in which the SSD is soldered is the Retina MacBook. In all other Apple computers, the SSD is mounted in a socket with a screw and can be easily removed and exchanged. Third party upgrades even exist for all of them.

 

[navaira]

I bet 99,9% of customers purchasing soldered and glued pieces in their new MBPs just don´t even KNOW they are glued and soldered and so aren´t still exchangeable. Because apple does´t mention this sort of U-turn in customer policy at all and the blue-clothed vendors in the glittering apple shops don´t tell them neither.

Exactly that. I'm fascinated by people who go into great lengths to defend Apple gluing their computers shut and recommending buying a maxed-out machine with the Apple tax included. A maxed out iMac costs € 4.789,00 here in the Netherlands. I couldn't possibly afford that. I don't think most people could. If my mom bought the basic config 21.5" with a spinner HDD for € 1.529,00 and then told me it's slow, I could only shrug and suggest we get an external SSD for her. And it's not like € 1.529,00 is cheap.

I've been putting computers together since... 2002? Possibly earlier. Two Hackintoshes and a whole lot of Windows machines, as I put them together for clients as well. I am yet to see a RAM slot (or RAM itself) fail because it's not soldered.

 

[MrAverigeUser]

Why didn't you get the 8GB version then? The only difference with slotted vs. upgradeable RAM is that you need to plan beforehand. It seems to me that you did not.

I am an IT manager of an university department. We own about 60 or so computers, most of them Macs. In the last 3 years, I didn't run into a single case where upgrading a computer or tinkering with it in any way would make economical sense. Sure, you need to plan ahead a bit. Don't get a 4GB machine if you know that it won't be good enough for the tasks you need to do. My laptop has 16GB DDR3 stock — which is an absolute maximum what that CPU can take with two RAM slots, so upgradeability would not change anything, and a 512GB SSD — more storage than I'd need in the next 3 years. Btw, we do own those 4GB Mac Minis (and I bought two more the day before yesterday) for administrative work, student research stations and as a backup open directory/database server replica — and guess what — nobody complains about performance, because they are more then adequate to the task at hand.

No offense - but the only thing I can think of when I hear/read someone like this is:"The guy needs desperately a cost-controller!"

In fact, you defend a policy no responsible for budget would, should and could defend…

Just only as for RAM, loss of flexibility, loss of instant and easy repair in place within some minutes is catastrophic.
And just to add this: I experienced failing RAM in my MBP and was happy to solve the problem rapidly because it was exchangeable.
Everyone knows that waiting for upgrading RAM means saving a lot of money because you buy later and at much lower prices for the same quality - and you don´t waste lifespan of forecast-purchased RAM you need in REAL LIFE perhaps some years later on… and so on and so on…

No offense, but to be honest I doubt a little bit that you are really someone who is responsible for the IT-budget.
Maybe you live in a paradise without cost-controlling or with not-so-much-knowing cost-controllers - or your university has still the policy "Cost no issue" ….
And: students at university are not a cost-factor since they are NOT PAYED as every person WORKING in an enterprise… some students will even be happy that they got a perfect excuse to drink a pine or take a coffee somewhere instead of doing research with the NOW non-functional computer… 😀 …. but a boss of an enterprise will "not be amused" about hours of payed work time because a little problem takes more time to be solved because of uselessly soldered/glued interiors...

And just to clarify: I am not talking about your decision for apple, I am nothing but talking about your irritating defense for customer-slavery by soldered/glued parts that should be FOR SURE be instantly exchangeable in an well-organized IT-department….

BTW: A friend of mine is responsible for a REALLY big IT-department of an US-enterprise in Europe ….he was really amused...
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Well, increase in Mac sales is a fact.

It is interesting that you take sales numbers as a quality benchmark…🙄😱
Other people take sales numbers more for a MARKETING BENCHMARK.. and Marketing is in fact the only thing where apple is still unapproached world-class leader… 😀

If this sales-nu,mbers approach was correct, Microsoft Software has been every time 10-20 times better/more inventive/stable/... than apple software has been and still would be top… do you think so? 😀
VHS would have been better than Betamax or Video2000 (The order as for quality was just the other way round).
and Ford would have been always better than BMW, Mercedes and Porsche….
And a big Mac would always have been lightyears better than a meal in a three-star-restaurant…

bon appétit