Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
So, if I buy a single copy and install it on my 2 macs that is bad karma, evil doing, stealing and will get me straight to hell?

But if apple sells me an iMac that is freezing 3 times a week and it takes them 3 months to come up with a fix that is perfectly ok?

Something is seriously wrong here.
 
So, if I buy a single copy and install it on my 2 macs that is bad karma, evil doing, stealing and will get me straight to hell?

But if apple sells me an iMac that is freezing 3 times a week and it takes them 3 months to come up with a fix that is perfectly ok?

Something is seriously wrong here.

If you run into my car is it ok for me to shoot you in the head?

The two things are not related.

"Two wrongs do not make a right".
 
This is my favorite post in this entire thread. Couldn't have put it better.

True. For me, I like the idea of being able to look at my shelf and say, "hey, I bought all that" and know that its mine. Maybe its that feel good feeling I have knowing I did the 'right thing'.
 
If you run into my car is it ok for me to shoot you in the head?

The two things are not related.

"Two wrongs do not make a right".

It's not ok for you to shoot me in the head, but it's ok for you to get me to pay for the damage.

Of course the 2 things are related. If apple doesn't care about its customers, why should its customers care about apple? The way I see it, I should get a free copy of leopard for all the troubles I had with my iMac for 3 long months. But apple doesn't give any kind of compensation.

And no, installing 1 disc on 2 machines is not the same as shoplifting, I wish that old example would stop to be brought up. From the point of view of the company it is, from the point of view of the user it isn't.
 
Of course the 2 things are related. If apple doesn't care about its customers, why should its customers care about apple? The way I see it, I should get a free copy of leopard for all the troubles I had with my iMac for 3 long months. But apple doesn't give any kind of compensation.

Wait, you deserve to be able to steal software because you got a bad machine? How does that equate? Please, show me the logic that successfully gets you from the proposition to the conclusion.

I need a good laugh.

And no, installing 1 disc on 2 machines is not the same as shoplifting, I wish that old example would stop to be brought up. From the point of view of the company it is, from the point of view of the user it isn't.

It's only not the same from your point of view because you've justified it in your mindset. To a reasonable person, it is indeed exactly the same thing, because even though you're not walking out of a store with a physical object, you are illegally obtaining a copy of the software that this company put time, money, and effort into creating and is selling in order to make that effort worthwhile.

jW
 
It's not ok for you to shoot me in the head, but it's ok for you to get me to pay for the damage.

Of course the 2 things are related. If apple doesn't care about its customers, why should its customers care about apple? The way I see it, I should get a free copy of leopard for all the troubles I had with my iMac for 3 long months. But apple doesn't give any kind of compensation.

And no, installing 1 disc on 2 machines is not the same as shoplifting, I wish that old example would stop to be brought up. From the point of view of the company it is, from the point of view of the user it isn't.

So you wouldn't have any problems if I came into your house and watched your television? I mean, I haven't stolen your television, and sure, I'm free loading, but using your logic, you haven't lost anything in the process.
 
I hate to say this, but a lot of this is a generational thing. The younger generations who have grown up in the age of the internet tend to think they are entitled to violate copyrights, no matter if it is for music, movies, or software. There are many people in the younger generations who have never paid for any of these things, and they are proud of this fact. I always wonder the age of the people in threads like this that support copyright violation.

They rationalize this in many ways: Violating copyrights is OK because they are not stealing a physical product, but making a copy. The copyrighted product is "too expensive" (read: they can't afford it). The artist/creator doesn't get any money from the sale anyway, so it is OK. It is a only a greedy corporation. The product is crap (not sure why you still want it then?). It goes on and on...

Like others have said, I am no angel, but being someone who is in the software development profession (albeit it is not software for resale), and an amateur musician, I appreciate the effort it takes to create something and this effort should not be minimized by ignoring the wishes of the creators. They created the software/music/etc and are entitled to put whatever terms of use on it they want (as long as it is within the law). If you don't like it, you don't have to steal it; you can create it yourself and then YOU can dictate the terms of its use. Let see if after you spend hours writing and recording an album or years creating some software, if you still think everyone should just do what they want it regardless of your wishes?

DISCLAIMER: I know not all people of younger generations are the like this, but statistics show that they are majority of willful copyright violators.
 
Ok, so let me get one thing clear, I BOUGHT my copy of Adobe CS3 Design Standard, I BOUGHT my copy of Cinema 4D and I BUY my music in form of cds (and got plenty:))

I'm just saying that in my opinion, if I have to deal with a faulty product from a company I have the right for compensation.

If I as a designer deliver rgb files for print and the client gets a crappy folder I won't get any money.

I think one is allowed to question a companies practices.

This may be an extreme example, but was it ok to kill the jews because it was in the Nazis license agreement signed when Hitler was elected?
 
...There are many people in the younger generations who have never paid for any of these things, and they are proud of this fact. I always wonder the age of the people in threads like this that support copyright violation...
...statistics show that they are majority of willful copyright violators.
Maybe because they're often too young to have yet created anything of commercial value.

I'm pretty sure that somebody who has to get up, commute to work, work to other's deadlines to create something, work 40hrs a week to collect a wage ravished by taxes will be more supportive of the copyright protection on other's work than somebody who lazes about at home ripping stuff of the 'net without a care in the world while somebody else (be it parent or State or partner) picks up the bills.
 
Try looking at it this way: we don't have a problem with you doing it, but you have to go to an Apple Store and shoplift your own copy. Does it still feel like not a big deal?

That is fantastic!
I shall use that when other people ask this question, if you don't mind. Or maybe it can be made a sticky!
 
Are you sure about that? What about "fair use"? If I have two computers, why can't I buy one DVD and install the OS on both? Seems like fair use to me. Even if that isn't legal, I would argue it is morally OK, again following the fair use logic.

EDIT: by the way, I only have one computer, I have no intention of doing this, I just truly wonder if doing this is illegal, despite what the EULA says.

Please don't invoke the concept of "Fair Use" as a defense unless you know what it means.

It does NOT mean it is fair to use it any way that you think should be fair.

Fair Use is a specific provision in the US Copyright Act that allows a defense for (NOT the right to) limited copying of copyrighted materials for use in education, reporting, commentary, parody, and a restricted range of non-commercial purposes.
 
I'm just saying that in my opinion, if I have to deal with a faulty product from a company I have the right for compensation.
Sure, that sounds reasonable. But you do not have the right to choose, on your own, the form of that compensation. Besides, Apple has a pretty good track record of properly compensating customers for faulty product. There are many threads here that bear that out.
 
Ok, so let me get one thing clear, I BOUGHT my copy of Adobe CS3 Design Standard, I BOUGHT my copy of Cinema 4D and I BUY my music in form of cds (and got plenty:))

I'm just saying that in my opinion, if I have to deal with a faulty product from a company I have the right for compensation.

If I as a designer deliver rgb files for print and the client gets a crappy folder I won't get any money.

I think one is allowed to question a companies practices.

This may be an extreme example, but was it ok to kill the jews because it was in the Nazis license agreement signed when Hitler was elected?

Nice Godwin. And it is not an extreme example; it is completely irrelevant.

1. Your product is under warranty for a period of time. If it is faulty, it will be fixed or replaced. Yes, that may take time and be an inconvenience. But that is the name of the game. If your car breaks down in the warranty period, do you demand that in addition to fixing the problem, that they must now upgrade you with the GPS system?

2. You do not "have to deal" with a faulty product from a faulty company. Nobody forced you to buy an aluminum iMac. You chose to be bleeding edge and you got caught. That is one of the risks. You could have bought a mature white iMac that would have caused you no problems. You could have bought a Mac Pro. You could have bought a PC. You could have bought nothing. You could have returned it.

3. Apple fixed the issue.

You are using the aforementioned "The product is crappy" defense for copyright violation, you just put a twist on it.
 
...Besides, Apple has a pretty good track record of properly compensating customers for faulty product. There are many threads here that bear that out.
Mostly in the US, in Europe they don't seem to give a ****.:mad:
 
Also, can people STOP saying that to install Leopard on multiple machines would be illegal? It would, in fact, be unlawful. The FBI is *not* going to prosecute you if you cross state lines with a laptop running Leopard that you've already installed on your desktop at home. Apple could, if they wanted to, initiate a civil action against you for violating your EULA and thus contract law. On the other hand, they've already been paid for the Mac you're using and have far better things to do with their time.

Try looking at it this way: we don't have a problem with you doing it, but you have to go to an Apple Store and shoplift your own copy. Does it still feel like not a big deal?

I hope you're joking. Someone who does a clueless Mac-owning friend a favour and installs a copy of Tiger on a machine running 10.2, for instance, is hardly committing a capital crime. I'm sure that the posters in this thread who commend your line of thought also refuse to watch DVDs with friends since they lack a public entertainment licence and don't lend music CDs for fear of being prosecuted for copyright infringement.
 
And no, installing 1 disc on 2 machines is not the same as shoplifting
Your probably correct on that score, I think it's more like going to the store checkout with an expensive item that you had changed the price tag from the correct price to something a lot cheaper .. ;)
 
Maybe because they're often too young to have yet created anything of commercial value.

I'm pretty sure that somebody who has to get up, commute to work, work to other's deadlines to create something, work 40hrs a week to collect a wage ravished by taxes will be more supportive of the copyright protection on other's work than somebody who lazes about at home ripping stuff of the 'net without a care in the world while somebody else (be it parent or State or partner) picks up the bills.

I agree. What is unfortunate is that the somebody else who is picking up the bills is not educating these young people on the value of this work.
 
So, if I buy a single copy and install it on my 2 macs that is bad karma, evil doing, stealing and will get me straight to hell? But if apple sells me an iMac that is freezing 3 times a week and it takes them 3 months to come up with a fix that is perfectly ok? Something is seriously wrong here.

Warning: Friday wind-down follows, cos Apple's one day UK sale is srsly lacking.

Going into meta-debate mode for a moment, the problem with a thread full of moral rather than technical/legal judgments is that people omit to state their premises. You're having three dozen people tell you that what you're doing is immoral; what that means is, "I, your castigator, subscribe to moral code X, which I have concluded prohibits what you're doing."

Any post condemning you thus likely contains one of two implicit messages:
  • You are subscribing to an incorrect moral code;
  • You may have a good moral code, but you're not applying it correctly.

Usually the person ends up justifying their act, and it comes down to the first message. The debate then either becomes one of belief systems or degenerates into people repeatedly spewing out the same logic without realising that they're working from different axioms. Failing to come to this realisation, many commenters end up stating something like, "Stealing is wrong because it's taking work from another without their permission." But the real meat of that sentence is the definition "taking work from another without their permission" for "stealing". It can then be shortened to "stealing is wrong because it's stealing", which is unhelpful.

Let's consider the origins of copyright. I'm unaware of copyright being codified because of any sort of "it's wrong to steal" principle. In C15-16 Italy the State/Church would grant privilegium for a limited time to those in their rulers' favour - hence the need for mathematicians, scientists, etc to gain patronage. Where the grip of the State was not so tight as to otherwise prohibit publication, most books would go into the public domain. Looking to England for the first copyright act, the 1710 Statute of Anne broke the monopoly on printing "for the Encouragement of Learning". Any US schoolchild will have, in his study of Section 8 of The Constitution, learnt the purpose of Copyright law there to have been stated as "to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts". Intellectual property was created as a concept to benefit society by encouraging scientific and artistic innovation by providing productive thinkers with a limited monopoly (14 years iirc for Anne).

Capitalism's recent success has brought free market philosophers to develop systems in which it is asserted that man owns his thoughts as he might own his shirt. This idea is far from self-evident; to Platonists or Pythagoreans, one's intellectual ability was a gift, with which came duty to be virtuous by applying that knowledge to enlighten others. This humanist ideal was developed in the Neohumanism displayed by some of the more successful technical authors of C16 - Recorde, Dee, influenced by Ramus; they published on geometry, on arithmetic, on navigation, etc. to educate the merchant classes, to improve the fairness of application of law, and to destroy the blinkers of authoritarianism. Newton was one of a chain of innovators who, perhaps prodding fun at his dimuntive rival, trotted out the "shoulders of giants" maxim - every thought is due to the input of many other thoughts, and every work is a derivative work of many other works.

Anyway, my point with this is that most of us have made money from selling our brainpower, but the fact that we're protected when doing this is likely because philosophers and lawmakers before us have seen the benefit to society, not because they consider an inherent right to intellectual property. To discuss the alternative views on the moral basis for copyright (or lack thereof) is interesting, but to so harshly condemn a man for a minor violation in this particular case is not only entirely unproductive, but is to take a fairly narrow, modern conception of copyright and try to impose it on a world which was not even built on that conception.

(Knee-jerk flame caveat: No, reader, I didn't just say we can all steal your hard work. ;))
 
Nice Godwin. And it is not an extreme example; it is completely irrelevant.

1. Your product is under warranty for a period of time. If it is faulty, it will be fixed or replaced. Yes, that may take time and be an inconvenience. But that is the name of the game. If your car breaks down in the warranty period, do you demand that in addition to fixing the problem, that they must now upgrade you with the GPS system?

2. You do not "have to deal" with a faulty product from a faulty company. Nobody forced you to buy an aluminum iMac. You chose to be bleeding edge and you got caught. That is one of the risks. You could have bought a mature white iMac that would have caused you no problems. You could have bought a Mac Pro. You could have bought a PC. You could have bought nothing. You could have returned it.

3. Apple fixed the issue.

You are using the aforementioned "The product is crappy" defense for copyright violation, you just put a twist on it.

Ah, now that's a good one.

1. My iMac started freezing after the 2 weeks return period. Numerous calls to apple and everytime they said they won't take it back. If my car breaks down in the warranty period (as it happened to me in february), the mechanics order the parts and I have my car back 1 week later.

2. Yes, I chose to be bleeding edge, let me explain why. So far I have purchased 5 apple computers. A G4 Cube rev A which I still have, a 12" powerbook rev A now owned by my father, a 12" ibook 1,33 ghz G4 for my girlfriend and a 15" powerbook G4 1,67 ghz for me, and said iMac. Before the purchase of the iMac, I have never had a single problem with both rev A machines, but the powerbook rev C or D? had 2 logic board replacements and the ibook had 1 and died 1,5 years after purchase (girlfriend didn't buy applecare). So I thought it would be a good idea to try a rev A again.;)

3. Yes, apple fixed the issue, 3 months after my purchase, and 3 months after I paid them money. If I create a website for a client that is not working as expected for 3 months, I won't see any money until the bug is fixed. Or, if I have been paid in advance, I'll have to offer some refund. But I guess it's ok to get srewed by a big company, because you can't defend yourself anyway.

And apart from that, I said I buy my software. I'm just thinking twice this time.;)
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.