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I realize some people desire a numeric keypad in a laptop (I doubt it's very many), but personally the fact that it pushes the rest of the keyboard and the trackpad (why the trackpad too?) off-center would drive me crazy. Same with the Vaio up there.

I feel it's worth mentioning that I'm one of these people actually. The numeric pad is handy to have on hand for games and especially games which lacked the foresight to include keyboard mapping for keys that not every keyboard has. For some reason 1 Numeric can register differently than 1 in the numbers row. The other thing is that the columns are perfectly aligned into rows for mapping left hand functions.

I suppose I could just buy an external but to be honest, I'm not sure if that'd work and really, really dislike the prospect of using external peripherals on the go unless there's simply no other way. It's just sloppy and it's not like there's not enough room enough on the top surface itself with a 17" keyboard. Granted, moving the homekeys off center isn't in the greatest ergonomic good but it's a necessary evil I'd be willing to put up with.

It's not just for the video game players either. I can see how some people, say like maybe certain scientists, accountants or engineers are just so handy with a calculator's numeric pad that any other solution for mathematical inputs is just simply insufficient for them. To put it bluntly, having a physical numeric pad makes the difference between being able touch type or being forced to peck away at keys on the keyboard with a single finger/cursor for lack of a better way of putting it.

As for the trackpad being off center, the aesthetic doesn't really appeal to me but it makes sense from a functionality in design standpoint. Even out of the people who could make use of a numeric pad, most of the time the user's hands are going to rest upon the home keys for more nominal typing purposes, so to center the trackpad away from them adds needless distance, taking more time for one of their digits to come from the keyboard to the trackpad for cursor manipulation purposes. This latency can needlessly bog down the works for the user while in multitasking, say if they're browsing the world wide web while chatting with somebody on IRC, which is not an all too uncommon scenario. This is especially helpful for the south paws who have a longer distance for their preferred hand to travel and would otherwise have to take both their hands off of the keyboard to mouse to avoid crossing their arms, however even the right-handed are marginally affected by this.
 
I feel it's worth mentioning that I'm one of these people actually. The numeric pad is handy to have on hand for games and especially games which lacked the foresight to include keyboard mapping for keys that not every keyboard has. For some reason 1 Numeric can register differently than 1 in the numbers row. The other thing is that the columns are perfectly aligned into rows for mapping left hand functions.

I suppose I could just buy an external but to be honest, I'm not sure if that'd work and really, really dislike the prospect of using external peripherals on the go unless there's simply no other way. It's just sloppy and it's not like there's not enough room enough on the top surface itself with a 17" keyboard. Granted, moving the homekeys off center isn't in the greatest ergonomic good but it's a necessary evil I'd be willing to put up with.

It's not just for the video game players either. I can see how some people, say like maybe certain scientists, accountants or engineers are just so handy with a calculator's numeric pad that any other solution for mathematical inputs is just simply insufficient for them. To put it bluntly, having a physical numeric pad makes the difference between being able touch type or being forced to peck away at keys on the keyboard with a single finger/cursor for lack of a better way of putting it.

As for the trackpad being off center, the aesthetic doesn't really appeal to me but it makes sense from a functionality in design standpoint. Even out of the people who could make use of a numeric pad, most of the time the user's hands are going to rest upon the home keys for more nominal typing purposes, so to center the trackpad away from them adds needless distance, taking more time for one of their digits to come from the keyboard to the trackpad for cursor manipulation purposes. This latency can needlessly bog down the works for the user while in multitasking, say if they're browsing the world wide web while chatting with somebody on IRC, which is not an all too uncommon scenario. This is especially helpful for the south paws who have a longer distance for their preferred hand to travel and would otherwise have to take both their hands off of the keyboard to mouse to avoid crossing their arms, however even the right-handed are marginally affected by this.

Well yea .... that, and the fact that the trackpad needs to be centered below the space bar, so that your right wrist doesn't inadvertently touch the trackpad when typing. Don't understand why people don't understand this.
 
Of course, but today, everyone uses adapters ..

usb hubs make it possible to get 4 ports .. display adapters on the mac make it more possible to connect VGA or HDMI.

By the means you stating,"pc can handle more displays" I assume your referring to the iMac.. You can't do this on a Mac Pro ?

Me thinks you can .
Erm, using adapters I can hook a Power Macintosh 6100 to an HDMI monitor. Adapters are dumb though, when a computer should come with the ports already. That's why you find Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc, still offering business computers with VGA ports on them. Because they know business people use them to connect to projectors.

But if you mean multiple monitors, I can hook up at least 2 monitors to a normal notebook. Now that Thunderbolt is out, the one monitor connection on a macbook pro is shared with a USB wannabe port.

Well yea .... that, and the fact that the trackpad needs to be centered below the space bar, so that your right wrist doesn't inadvertently touch the trackpad when typing. Don't understand why people don't understand this.

Most mac fanboys just say "Oops, it's not centered. It sucks." and fail to look at the reasons behind it.

Just like most mac fanboys fail to realize that the trackpad without a 2nd button is problematic for some people, or that the screens used in a MBP are horribly under-spec compared to asus, sony, and dell.

Don't get me wrong, Apple gives nice industrial engineering, but their hardware is no better, just worse for the price.
 
The O.S. is included in the price, so we have to make sure the O.S. you get is comparable to ensure that we null the value of software to get an accurate reading of the hardware:price ratio. Now a lot of it is indeed subjective as you claim but we have to remember that Windows Home Edition simply doesn't have some features that better versions of Windows and OSX have. Say if for your applications security is of a high concern, an easy to use built-in encryption program may be of some value. Mac OSX comes with Filevault by default but you need the Ultimate edition of Windows 7 to get their equivalent, Bitlocker. Getting Ultimate through the BTO program adds $180 to the price already. I really think we should be using Ultimate as our base O.S. since it's the only "fully featured" Microsoft O.S. where as Mac O.S. is fully featured by default. Recovery media, which Apple includes with every mac, costs another $20 with Hewlett Packard and everybody really should have a set on hand incase something goes wrong.

If this is your modus operendi, you'd need to choose the two battery option to bring the Hewlett Packard Envy as close to the Macbook Po as possible, giving it what I'd imagine to be a 5.625 hour battery life expectancy (where as the MBP is advertised with 7) instead of the advertised nearly unusable 2.25 hour battery life. To be fair however, you'd also save $100 dollars by dropping the the Bluray drive and add $35 to the MBP's price by throwing in the offered Mini Displayport to HDMI adapter, since the Envy has both displayport and HDMI built in. With these alterations to the B.T.O. procedure I find that the HP envy now costs 2333.99 and the MBP now costs 2,979.00, closing in the gap a little but still giving the HP Envy a clear edge so far. (Now personally speaking, I'd only ever buy the minimal RAM configuration on a laptop, given how easy it is to upgrade on a MBP, closing in the gap even further but I can see how for the sake of simplicity you'd want to make them both 8GB instead of 4GB and 6GB which certainly isn't a 1:1 comparison.)

However keep in mind that I'd say that the data connections situation on the Envy is a bit more congested overall. You have 1 USB 3.0 port, one dedicated USB 2.0 port and one shared USB 2.0/eSATA (eSATAp?) port, only allowing up to three connections unless you want to carry hubs with you everywhere. With the MBP, you have three USB 2.0 ports and a Thunderbolt port which can be daisy chained to multiple devices. I'd go on further about this but I'm unsure about one thing. Is the eSATAp port utilizing SATA II or SATA III connections? It sorta makes a difference because if it's SATA II, USB 3.0+SATA III = 11.0Gbps combined putting it above Thunderbolt™ assuming you're using a singular HDD and a USB 3.0 device, where as USB 3.0+SATA II is only 8Gbps putting it below Thunderbolt™ by greater margin. Either way, Thunderbolt™ is a bit more versatile. I'm also curious as to whether the Envy has an expresscard slot built in or not. I think I see one pictured, however it's not listed in the specs at all if it is and it does add even further versatility to the MBP.

Mac OSX will be fully featured by default because there is no other version of the operating system. With nothing (no other versions) to compare it to then it will be "fully-featured" simply because it is the only one that is available. In reality, something can only be fully featured if there is a comparison between it and something else and with no other OSX versions to compare it to 'fully featured' does not describe it (unless it is compared to windows). In my opinion, you can only compare the operating systems if you are going to need all the features. For an average user, Home Premium will be fine even with all its missing features.

True, but I would do with the dv7 instead of the envy.


True. However, the fastest SSD can only read data at ~450 MB/s and write data at 300MB/s. Convert this to Gbps and you get a maximum read speed of 3.6 Gbps which is much lower than the maximum data rate of the interface. Plus, unless your computer has a SSD the maximum data rate will be limited to the speed that your hard drive can write to the disk (less than 100 MB/s). However, I agree that the envy does not have enough ports, especially when you consider that this is a 17 inch monster that will be used often as a desktop replacement.

USB 3.0 is much faster than USB 2.0 (10 times faster) and half to a quarter as fast as thunderbolt. I think thunderbolt is good and wish I had it on my computer, but currently it is useless as there are no devices that can make use of it. Daisy-chaining devices is also a drawback to thunderbolt, I would rather have it designed so that you could simply add a hub to it with many different ports and connect much easier that having to take out connections or digging under you desk to find the end of the daisy-chain. If a device in the middle of your daisy-chain craps out then the devices after it will slow down. Plus each device must have two thunderbolt ports (one upstream and one downstream). Its a great technology but it will not be fully utilized for a while.
 
Oh, no!! Intel is going to include USB 3 support along with Thunderbolt on the Ivy Bridge chipset. If Apple uses the USB 3 support on future Macbooks will it suddenly become a great idea and necessary to all who said it was a useless feature?? :D
 
The parts in the current MBPs constitute 'premium' parts and materials. Many of the individual parts are quite expensive as well.
 
I can't believe that this thread is still going and the replies are still so heated, as if any of this matter.

What can you do? We can take pride in that we don't have to deal with the amazing PC inventions, such as Windows Vista :p
 
But Apple had the Newton and Pippin.

Yes, but I don't have to deal with them every day like I do Vista. I'm on a Vista bashing spree because I have to battle with it every damned day. Why couldn't they have just went with XP, or better yet, 7? I would rather run Windows 95 over Vista. No, I would rather run a calculator with a half broken screen than Vista...it would probably load Outlook faster anyway.
 
Yes, but I don't have to deal with them every day like I do Vista. I'm on a Vista bashing spree because I have to battle with it every damned day. Why couldn't they have just went with XP, or better yet, 7? I would rather run Windows 95 over Vista. No, I would rather run a calculator with a half broken screen than Vista...it would probably load Outlook faster anyway.

What problems are you having with Vista?
 
There have been a few negative comments about Toshiba laptops.

Toshiba makes some of the best laptops on the market, I'm sure they have some poorly designed ones too for budget shoppers, but their top of the line stuff can compete with Apple's, at a very competitive price.

Check out the new Portege R800/R835 series and the new Tecra R800 series that reviewers on CNET and other sites have been raving about. Good competition for the MBA.

Portege R800 13 inch Laptop
Pros:
- SandyBridge i3-i7
- Lightweight 3.2 lbs (a little more than the 2.9 lbs MBA), and thats with a DVD drive
- 9 Hour Battery Life
- USB 3.0
- Good build quality (chiclet-style keyboard, relatively large touchpad for a PC, durable)
- Price

Cons:
- 1366 x 760 (Lower than MBA)
- Touchpad, though relatively large for a PC, is not even close to the responsiveness of MBA touchpad and Keyboard can be noisy
- Features like SSD must be custom configured

*Disclaimer: I do not own a Toshiba Portege Laptop, nor do I represent Toshiba. Though, I do own a 5 year old Toshiba Satellite.
 
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What 'synergy'? Apple takes generic hardware and makes terrible drives for it for it's OS then charges a 50% mark up. If there was any 'synergy' then Apple wouldn't be known for terrible GPU drivers, or MacBooks that falsely limit the amount of RAM you can put in your laptop.

They give you the lowest they can get away with cuz they know people will blindly pay for it.

And, according to your sig, You blindly paid for it.
Twice.
If I had you apparent attitude toward Apple computers I`m pretty sure I wouldn`t have bought 2.
Fail.
 
Yes, but I don't have to deal with them every day like I do Vista. I'm on a Vista bashing spree because I have to battle with it every damned day. Why couldn't they have just went with XP, or better yet, 7? I would rather run Windows 95 over Vista. No, I would rather run a calculator with a half broken screen than Vista...it would probably load Outlook faster anyway.

People love to complain about Vista but they have no legitimate reasons to except they wanted to jump on the bandwagon.
 
People love to complain about Vista but they have no legitimate reasons to except they wanted to jump on the bandwagon.

Agreed. I thought that Vista 64 was pretty good as an OS. Certainly was a much more usable 64 bit OS than XP x64 was. Gaming performance vs regular XP x86 was a bit lower so I still kept that around.

The biggest problem that I could see was backward compatibility with older applications. That was one of the reasons why Vista was never really embraced by the corporate world. That and volume licensing upgrades were expensive and there was no real benefit to the business user. I found that most of the advancements were geared towards home users and recreational uses (such as Media Center and DX10).

We're starting to roll out Win7 machine as they come pre-licensed, but still our Finance users can't have those machines because our financial system isn't compatible (that's the system that I personally manage).

John
 
People love to complain about Vista but they have no legitimate reasons to except they wanted to jump on the bandwagon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Windows_Vista

That is a partial list. Windows Vista is a POS, even Vista Enterprise. There is no bandwagon to jump on to as I deal with it everyday. Windows 7 is a fantastic operating system, but due to the cost of upgrading (which is upwards of a hundred million dollars), this will not happen for at least a few years. Even XP Pro wasn't bad, but neither are nearly as good as 7. Windows 7 compared to Vista is literally Snow Leopard compared to Mac's OS about 5 years ago, which was the number one cause of hair loss for IT professionals.

Look at Laptops with 7 versus Vista; the power management gains alone are spectacular.

If you still don't believe me, let the masses do the talking...substantially more people are already using 7 over Vista, which was not the trend with Vista over XP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems

My point is that Vista was a poor operating system, and the release of Windows 7 showed just how poor it was given how much better Windows 7 is.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Windows_Vista

That is a partial list. Windows Vista is a POS, even Vista Enterprise. There is no bandwagon to jump on to as I deal with it everyday. Windows 7 is a fantastic operating system, but due to the cost of upgrading (which is upwards of a hundred million dollars), this will not happen for at least a few years. Even XP Pro wasn't bad, but neither are nearly as good as 7. Windows 7 compared to Vista is literally Snow Leopard compared to Mac's OS about 5 years ago, which was the number one cause of hair loss for IT professionals.

Look at Laptops with 7 versus Vista; the power management gains alone are spectacular.

If you still don't believe me, let the masses do the talking...substantially more people are already using 7 over Vista, which was not the trend with Vista over XP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems

My point is that Vista was a poor operating system, and the release of Windows 7 showed just how poor it was given how much better Windows 7 is.

I know many people who have had zero problems with Vista too. It got a bad rep when it was first released but once the hardware manufacturers caught up things weren't all that bad.
 
I have been told by many owners of macs that simply because they have a Mac that their hardware is better then any other computer. I attempt to tell them the only actual difference between mac and "PC's" is the OS and in actuality Apple buys its hardware from the same people that the PC vendors get their hardware from.
In fact I have often dug up evidence that Macs do not have the best Hardware. Currently ASUS and Toshiba lead with mac in fourth of the largest 8 PC manufactures.


Links to the evidence? :)

Asus does offer a nice price for their hardware, and BTW: they have made some MacBooks in the past... :)

The OS is the most significant difference.

And nothing beats a Mac case; the unit feels solid more than any PC laptop I've held.

But I've gawked at Asus laptop screens. MacBook screens, while still TN, still look more vibrant. After calibrating mine last night, I was quite happy. I don't often get happy.

And all the PC vendors preload Windows with space-using and registry-cluttering crap. There is no way to compact a registry and cleaning it CAN lead to problems. Which is a reason why I'm trying to get out of PC support. Windows is a joke. Windows 7 has some clever innovations, but the registry is still there.
 
I know many people who have had zero problems with Vista too. It got a bad rep when it was first released but once the hardware manufacturers caught up things weren't all that bad.

It could be the hardware used that has caused the problems I deal with, as our systems are generally Core 2 Duo models, with some being (IIRC) Core Duo. But either way, Vista doesn't have the features of Windows 7, which IMO has almost reinvented the ways PC users do computing. I also feel when Ivy Bridge comes out, W7 will be a major part of the powerful laptops with 24 hour battery reserves given its power management features. On a related note I also think OS X Lion will incorporate newer power management features as well given the coming leaps in efficiency. I feel strongly that Ivy Bridge will incorporate huge power efficiency gains, in addition to their stated intention of making quad core systems the standard.

And I do not really think that the MBP has better hardware than ALL PCs. I feel they are among the best, but comparing a MBP to a $600 PC is not a fair comparison, which is often done. My favorite PC laptop has been the Sony Vaio Z Series, which IMO uses components that are on a par with Apple. It is also the only laptop I am familiar with that users keep as long as MBPs, which IMO is largely due to the higher price of these systems. The Vaio Z and MBP literally seem to update at the most differing times possible, so one will usually outperform the other depending on which one was recently updated. But there are $1,000+ PCs that absolutely do suck and are far inferior to the MBP; that doesn't mean ALL PCs suck, but it does mean that laptops that are as expensive as the MBP are not as well made.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Windows_Vista

That is a partial list. Windows Vista is a POS, even Vista Enterprise. There is no bandwagon to jump on to as I deal with it everyday. Windows 7 is a fantastic operating system, but due to the cost of upgrading (which is upwards of a hundred million dollars), this will not happen for at least a few years. Even XP Pro wasn't bad, but neither are nearly as good as 7. Windows 7 compared to Vista is literally Snow Leopard compared to Mac's OS about 5 years ago, which was the number one cause of hair loss for IT professionals.

Look at Laptops with 7 versus Vista; the power management gains alone are spectacular.

If you still don't believe me, let the masses do the talking...substantially more people are already using 7 over Vista, which was not the trend with Vista over XP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems

My point is that Vista was a poor operating system, and the release of Windows 7 showed just how poor it was given how much better Windows 7 is.

Yup. As someone who owns retail copies of both and have built several computers with both, Vista is a POS. Windows 7 is night and day difference in how it acts.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Windows_Vista

That is a partial list. Windows Vista is a POS, even Vista Enterprise. There is no bandwagon to jump on to as I deal with it everyday. Windows 7 is a fantastic operating system, but due to the cost of upgrading (which is upwards of a hundred million dollars), this will not happen for at least a few years. Even XP Pro wasn't bad, but neither are nearly as good as 7. Windows 7 compared to Vista is literally Snow Leopard compared to Mac's OS about 5 years ago, which was the number one cause of hair loss for IT professionals.

Look at Laptops with 7 versus Vista; the power management gains alone are spectacular.

If you still don't believe me, let the masses do the talking...substantially more people are already using 7 over Vista, which was not the trend with Vista over XP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems

My point is that Vista was a poor operating system, and the release of Windows 7 showed just how poor it was given how much better Windows 7 is.

Compared to the thousands who complain on message boards and in real life all the time whose only defense is "it sucks" with no backing. I'm not denying that Vista has flaws, every OS has flaws. But people poop all over Vista who have no reason to
 
Major bump. But my input. I get this comment all the time at my job.

I work for Geek Squad and whenever I tell my clients what's wrong with their computer they usually always go "UGH, I knew I should have bought a Mac" as if mac hardware is made out of some magical components.

It's the same when they're asking me about new computers and they say "Well, what about Macs?" I always remind them that they are still computers with computer parts and nothings going to change that. Things still do go wrong with Macs, I just see less of them to repair.
 
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