Why does anyone oppose third-party app stores?

[Ctrlos]

How do those folks navigate PCs and Macs?

They don't. Their phones are their only portal. They put up with Windows at work and ring IT for the slightest problem and visit the Apple store if their iPhone develops an issue.

Not because their are stupid or ignorant but because they just don't know how it works. Id take my car to a mechanic for the same reason.

But these are tragically the people most exposed to and that fall for scams. To completely open iOS up like a Mac or PC is to invite disaster. We can blame Apple for this, for hiding away the nuts and bolts and creating a dependency market. But we are nearly 20 years into smartphones and changing things would be a disaster.

 

[surferfb]

This ^^

Make it like it is on macOS with warnings and confirmations you know what you're doing, etc

I agree this is an ok-ish solution to some of my issues with third party stores, but it’s highly unlikely the EU would allow Apple to do that because “Scare sheets” might discourage people from installing the stores. (The idea that Apple could impose harsher warning on third party stores than their own seems to fly in the face of the “spirit of the law” even if it isn’t specifically prohibited in the text.)

 

[icanhazmac]

Let me consume everything at the same place

What exactly is wrong with a consumer valuing convenience? I will gladly pay a reasonable premium for convenience.

• I pay airlines for extra legroom and seats closest to the exit.
• I pay for UberXL instead of trying to cram myself into the back of a Prius.
• If I am really busy with work or life, I will pay for my groceries to be delivered.
• I pay Amazon for 2 day shipping so that I don't have to wait.
• If I receive 2 quotes for work and one is slightly more but can be done on my timetable I will probably pay it versus a less expensive quote that cannot be completed in my window.

I also am more than happy to pay an "Apple Tax", if you will, so that I do not need to give my personal and payment information to 10-50 app devs.

If you are so desperate for alt-stores or side-loading there is an option for you. How much do you value that option?

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

My car doesn’t need gas. It sips “fuel” at 15 cents per kilowatt hour.

Good for you. If only we could all be you.

But the point you were making is that sometimes gas stations go rogue or don’t care purposely mislabel.

I wrote no such thing. The point I was making was the point just made again. When one can shop around for something they want to buy, they can get the same product for up to significant monetary savings.

And the customers winds up with something else for their purchase.

Not in that example. They end with the very same thing- be that premium gas, or a specific app, a MBair for $200 less this week at <not Apple Store> in the weekly "deals", etc.

And they do t know until it’s too late.

No, generally shoppers who shop around know what they are shopping for. While they could occasionally get a surprise if they buy in the wrong place, I'd be quite confident in gas, or apps (from say the app developer vs. the app from the Apple App Store) or MBair from Best Buy vs. MBair from Apple.

So for that I would rather pay $1 more a gallon than to pay for an engine repair.

Good for you. Presumably others do that too and that's why that station is the MOST EXPENSIVE option in the area I searched. Else, if EVERYONE shopped only on lowest price, that station would be out of business unless they did something radically insane and competed for customers.

Ps thanks for helping to elucidate on your point so easily.

Glad I could help. Sorry you got so confused by what I have actually written. I hope these clarifications help too.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

What exactly is wrong with a consumer valuing convenience?

I will gladly pay a reasonable premium for convenience.

• I pay airlines for extra legroom and seats closest to the exit.
• I pay for UberXL instead of trying to cram myself into the back of a Prius.
• If I am really busy with work or life, I will pay for my groceries to be delivered.
• I pay Amazon for 2 day shipping so that I don't have to wait.
• If I receive 2 quotes for work and one is slightly more but can be done on my timetable I will probably pay it versus a less expensive quote that cannot be completed in my window.

I also am more than happy to pay an "Apple Tax", if you will, so that I do not need to give my personal and payment information to 10-50 app devs.

Nothing at all wrong with how you want to buy products & services. None of this about some group of consumers being wrong.

EU laws- if they apply to you because you live there- don't force you to change how you shop at all. Just keep buying from the Apple App Store, exactly as you do. From what I read in all the EU threads when actual EU Apple people choose to chip in something, they seem to perceive that just about everyone there continues to use the Apple App Store. BUT, they generally don't hate the law that gives them additional options either.

It's not an either-or proposition. If you are happy with the convenience, the security, the favored way to buy apps, etc, that's your right, fully preserved. Keep doing what you're doing. Apples App Store is not dead in the EU. The law didn't evict it from being able to compete for app business. It is still thriving as much as it ever has best I know.

I have a handful or two of things that I buy and pay more than lowest price for them too. It's not solely about lowest price... just the availability- the option- to seek it if you, I, anyone else wants it. We have that in just about everything we buy- including Apples own creations- but THIS is one of the very few things where we don't have it. Why not? That's the crux of this debate in every thread.

Perhaps the EU law is about other peoples preferences and not our own?

 

[icanhazmac]

It's not an either-or proposition.

I am really growing tired of explaining this.

It is "either-or" when alt-stores begin to offer devs exclusive distribution deals, it has already happened in the EU. There was an article posted here on MR about a game leaving the Apple App store in favor of the Epic store, I cannot find it at this moment but will keep looking. If this trend moves to the rest of the world then the offers of exclusivity will only get worse.

Edit: forgive me, it was a game that left the Play Store for Epic:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/epic-games-store-launches-on-iphone-in-eu-brings-fortnite-back-to-ios.2433762/page-11?post=33325279#post-33325279

Rocket League Sideswipe is being removed from the Play Store next week

With the launch of the Epic Games Store on Android, it’s been announced that Rocket League Sideswipe will be removed...

9to5google.com

This is only the beginning of a fragmented store experience that a lot of Apple customers don't want and if you look at how many Android users side load, not many of them wanted it either.

Again, guarantee me that all apps will be listed on the Apple App store as part of the dev agreement and I will be the first to celebrate your "choices" though I still don't know what you will get from them, except pr0nz and weed apps.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

I am really growing tired of explaining this.

It is "either-or" when alt-stores begin to offer devs exclusive distribution deals, it has already happened in the EU. There was an article posted here on MR about a game leaving the Apple App store in favor of the Epic store, I cannot find it at this moment but will keep looking. If this trend moves to the rest of the world then the offers of exclusivity will only get worse.

Is it though? Some argue that Fortnite exited the store because of Epics fault. Others say Epic was evicted for punishment doled out by Gatekeeper Apple. Those "with Apple" on the matter have popularly written they don't want anything from terrible/evil/crooked/trouble-maker Epic anyway.

If some game opts to exit the App Store, why don't those aligned with Apple treat it like Fortnite/Epic: who wants that game anyway?

If Apple evicts some game from the App Store, odds seem high the same people against Epic will be against that developer too. Who cares about <game>? It's a dumb game. Nobody needs that game. I've seen that same basic movie play out hundreds of times when any players seem to cross Apple in any way.

There are hundreds of thousands of games in the App Store. Let's buy and play a different game.

But what if it's something more important, like maybe key business apps such as Word or Adobe Photoshop? Won't that be a disaster? For any given app in the App Store, there seems to be clones galore. I used to be a regular for Photoshop... until they went subscription model and then I "shopped around"- because I could on Mac- through Affinity and others and landed on Pixelmator. As far as I'm concerned, it's just as good if not better for all of my purposes. Too bad Adobe: you lost a regular buyer of Photoshop because it was possible for me to shop for alternatives.

What if some app does something exclusive and important and exits the store? If most people want to only buy apps from the one App Store, some clone will see the competitive opportunity, code the features so very missed and then we can buy that app to replace the one that bailed.

But let's be clear: any app that bails on the long established App Store for other horizons that is a desirable app with revenue is almost certainly going to quickly realize a big drop in easy revenue. They may try to stick with some stance against Apple but they will eventually miss the easy, lucrative revenue. What do you do if you make a business decision that causes you to lose a lot of money? One easy option is reverse that dumb decision. I suspect some who leave will soon be back because they'll want the easy money they are no longer getting... even with Apple's big cut.

If I'm a developer in the EU, I absolutely make the app available on my own website too, where I'm probably already selling Mac apps I've coded. If so, all that infrastructure, etc is already in place. Now I just sell my iDevice apps there too. I'm an app coder so coding some new "for sale" apps on my own website it towards child's play.

If other stores pop up and I think I can get 1 more sale there than from the Apple Store and my own store, I get my app on that store too... exactly like Apple has their creations in all kinds of NOT-Apple stores. I follow the lead of Apples own broad marketing & distribution example. Apple sells their creations in MANY places. Why can't I sell my creations in many places too?

However, all that offered, I would guess a few apps will in fact, bail from the App Store for some reason other than money, not care about the app revenue they are sacrificing by not being where MOST people shop for apps in the EU and that will be that. It's THEIR creation... not Apples. They can do what they want.

An app that jumps to mind that we all should recall is Flappy Bird. If I recall correctly, it was the most popular app in the App Store for a period of time, estimated to be generating (was it) $50K/day for the creator. That developer decided to pull it at some point and just not offer it anymore due to reasons other than money. It didn't go somewhere else (because there is nowhere else for iDevice app buyers). He just chose to stop selling it.

What happened to the rest of the world who wanted Flappy Bird? Clones quickly popped right in to fill that gap and those wanting Flappy Bird-type action could download a clone app. Competition at work filled in the gap for a much-wanted app that was removed. I expect nothing different in the EU if some great app(s) exit. Competition is agile and ready to jump on any opportunity that can make them more money... just like Apple.

 

[icanhazmac]

Is it though?

Yes, it is.

Your entire post is filled with ways I should just accept the appeasement of a very vocal few at the expense of my current experience. If an app I own abandons the app store, I should "get a clone" or "big deal".

When the current Apple ecosystem is regulated into mediocrity I have no other choices. The very vocal minority has options for what they want, they just want their cake and to eat it too.

PS - The Flappy Bird story:

Inside the Brief Life and Untimely Death of Flappy Bird

Dong Nguyen's game would become one of those breakout viral success stories you hear about on Apple devices, the next Angry Birds, the next Temple Run.

www.wired.com

In this case, if you liked the game a clone is your only option. In general I don't like the idea of clones, too many good games get lost in the sea of cheap knock-offs and I certainly don't want to support devs that basically steal the work of others.

 

[I7guy]

Good for you. If only we could all be you.

👍

I wrote no such thing. The point I was making was the point just made again. When one can shop around for something they want to buy, they can get the same product for up to significant monetary savings.

I extrapolated your fallacious logic of selling a regulated commodity to competition borne out of in essence taking private property and making it public.

Not in that example. They end with the very same thing- be that premium gas, or a specific app, a MBair for $200 less this week at <not Apple Store> in the weekly "deals", etc.



No, generally shoppers who shop around know what they are shopping for. While they could occasionally get a surprise if they buy in the wrong place, I'd be quite confident in gas, or apps (from say the app developer vs. the app from the Apple App Store) or MBair from Best Buy vs. MBair from Apple.



Good for you. Presumably others do that too and that's why that station is the MOST EXPENSIVE option in the area I searched. Else, if EVERYONE shopped only on lowest price, that station would be out of business unless they did something radically insane and competed for customers.

I don’t trust bottom tier gas stations with my other vehicle. (So yeah, “good for me”)

Glad I could help. Sorry you got so confused by what I have actually written. I hope these clarifications help too.

Sorry your word salad has ranch, bleu cheese and Gorgonzola dressing.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

Yes, it is.

Your entire post is filled with ways I should just accept

Nope. As I've written several times, this is not about forcing something on you (and you here can actually apply to all who take this general view of all of this). I've put that in writing in more than one post. You don't have to accept anything. The EU law is not about forcing something on customers. That law is forcing something on Apple.

(EU) Customers who are happy with the "as is" can stick with the as is. The law has been in effect for a year now. The Apple App Store is still there, still thoroughly dominating as a source of apps for Apple EU people. I haven't seen a stat but if I was guessing, I would guess that probably the volume of apps in the EU still acquired from the Apple App Store is ABOVE 99%. Now that's just a guess and maybe it's 97% or something like that. But a WHOLE year has almost passed and Apple very likely still owns- essentially- all of the app fulfillment opportunity.

the appeasement of a very vocal few at the expense of my experience.

If you don't live in the EU, the law has no effect on you at all. It's those customers there that have new capabilities- if they want them. Those who don't want them can stick with the status quo.

If an app I own abandons the app store, I should "get a clone" or "big deal".

Is that different than those against saying, "if you don't like it, buy android?"

But no, I'm not saying get a clone. IMO: important apps we value will not DARE leave the easy money in the dominant-by-far App Store. But, should one do it, I suspect they will very quickly be back, as the most desirable place to be to sell anything is where almost all the buyers shop.

When the current Apple ecosystem is regulated into mediocrity I have no other choices.

IMO: the EU thing will eventually spread to the Capitalism countries around the world. Apple with either proactively evolve towards the general intent of the law or be forced there enough times to decide best course of action is just get on with it. I hope for the former so that Apple can do it in the best possible way. But it's probably more profitable for at least a couple more years to fight-fight-delay-fight-delay-fight and then comply.

But even when it happens over what will probably be MANY years, I think the path to a destination like mediocrity will be long after you and I are dead. And I mean LONG. It's far too big, far too established, far too "normal" to quickly become nothing.

Should any competition start taking meaningful bites of share- which I would guess is YEARS away at best even if EU went global, Apple could do what major retailers do when new competition starts taking some notcable share: COMPETE right back. Yes, that may involve Apple lowering commissions, etc as part of competing and thus netting less easy profit, but they have the highest of high ground right now and can certainly out-compete all competitors if they choose to be competitive... instead of NOT competitive in the ways that will matter to customers in this matter.

Will having to compete some on this piece of a much larger whole kill Apple? Of course not. Apple makes revenue from MANY things, not just this one thing. They'll replace whatever could get taken by competitors and then some by innovating other stuff (products & services) to sell. They're GREAT at that.

 

[icanhazmac]

Is that different than those against saying, "if you don't like it buy android?"

Yes it is very different.

I, and others, bought into this ecosystem and value it.

The very loud, vocal minority bought into this ecosystem knowing full well it is a "walled garden" or "one stop shop" and are now either cheering on or actively trying to have government(s) appease their desires via regulation.

The reason I say "buy an Android" is that if you value alt-stores or side loading that much then you have a place to go where that freedom exists. If there are enough of you that leave for Android then Apple will be forced to adjust or accept the loss of market share. If only 5 of you leave then c'est la vie. That is the market working as intended.

Why is this so hard to understand?

Alt-stores = fragmented stores via exclusivity agreements. The only way out of that is to force devs, via the dev agreement, to have a home on the Apple App store in addition to any other market places they choose. This seems to me to be a very simple solution to this whole mess. Everyone wins, or maintains, no one loses.

Don't y'all lose if Epic starts paying devs for exclusive distribution rights? Isn't being forced to buy from the Epic app store exactly the same as being forced to buy from the Apple app store? If you think the cost of apps will go down I have a bridge to sell you.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

I guess we're just going to have to agree to differ in how we see this topic... and that's fine. Nice exploring other views of it with you through multiple interactions. Who knows? Perhaps the EU people will vote in replacement representation to put things back to how they were. If EU people are as unhappy about this like non-EU people around here, they can easily remedy this terrible problem as soon as the very next elections. Repealing laws are not so different than enacting them.

 

[icanhazmac]

I guess we're just going to have to agree to differ in how we see this topic... and that's fine. Nice exploring other views of it with you through multiple interactions. Who knows? Perhaps the EU people will vote in replacement representation to put things back to how they were. If EU people are as unhappy about this like non-EU people around here, they can easily remedy this terrible problem as soon as the very next elections. Repealing laws are not so different than enacting them.

Indeed, once some got past the childish, veiled insults we could have some interesting debate. Kudos to the mods today for taking out the trash!

I do wonder though, in our back-and-forth, you have referenced the EU and the DMA more than once, why is that? The EU and the DMA were not the topic raised by the OP, it was alt-stores or specifically third party stores and why would anyone oppose them.

The EU can dictate what it wants inside its borders, I can't control that. I certainly don't like it and yes, perhaps the citizens of the EU will vote in some change.

What I can do is lament what I believe will occur if alt-stores are force regulated on the world as they have been in the EU. I believe the worst is yet to come because only the EU is affected right now. If this mess spreads I bet everything I have suggested comes true.

My fear is that the EU is just influential enough that they forced the USBC mess on the world so could they also force alt-stores? Remember, those idiots almost forced micro-usb on us.

Edit: To all the folks that either cannot or will not engage in reasonable debate and troll with the insulting/childish/ironic use of the laughing emoji.... thanks for all the +1s and for raising the visibility of my posts!

 

[Eriamjh1138@DAN]

I do not TRUST non-Apple app,stores to have the same or fewer apps trying to steal my data or money.

It happens with Apple. How will it not happen as much in a 3rd party App Store?

 

[thejadedmonkey]

* Generally speaking, one app store is better for everyone involved.
* If multiple app stores gain traction, the idea of an open platform where you can install whatever you want will disappear forever, as Apple will just point to "alternative app stores" as their "openness".

 

[I7guy]

Nope. As I've written several times, this is not about forcing something on you (and you here can actually apply to all who take this general view of all of this). I've put that in writing in more than one post. You don't have to accept anything. The EU law is not about forcing something on customers. That law is forcing something on Apple.

(EU) Customers who are happy with the "as is" can stick with the as is. The law has been in effect for a year now. The Apple App Store is still there, still thoroughly dominating as a source of apps for Apple EU people. I haven't seen a stat but if I was guessing, I would guess that probably the volume of apps in the EU still acquired from the Apple App Store is ABOVE 99%. Now that's just a guess and maybe it's 97% or something like that. But a WHOLE year has almost passed and Apple very likely still owns- essentially- all of the app fulfillment opportunity.



If you don't live in the EU, the law has no effect on you at all. It's those customers there that have new capabilities- if they want them. Those who don't want them can stick with the status quo.



Is that different than those against saying, "if you don't like it, buy android?"

But no, I'm not saying get a clone. IMO: important apps we value will not DARE leave the easy money in the dominant-by-far App Store. But, should one do it, I suspect they will very quickly be back, as the most desirable place to be to sell anything is where almost all the buyers shop.



IMO: the EU thing will eventually spread to the Capitalism countries around the world. Apple with either proactively evolve towards the general intent of the law or be forced there enough times to decide best course of action is just get on with it. I hope for the former so that Apple can do it in the best possible way. But it's probably more profitable for at least a couple more years to fight-fight-delay-fight-delay-fight and then comply.

But even when it happens over what will probably be MANY years, I think the path to a destination like mediocrity will be long after you and I are dead. And I mean LONG. It's far too big, far too established, far too "normal" to quickly become nothing.

Should any competition start taking meaningful bites of share- which I would guess is YEARS away at best even if EU went global, Apple could do what major retailers do when new competition starts taking some notcable share: COMPETE right back. Yes, that may involve Apple lowering commissions, etc as part of competing and thus netting less easy profit, but they have the highest of high ground right now and can certainly out-compete all competitors if they choose to be competitive... instead of NOT competitive in the ways that will matter to customers in this matter.

Will having to compete some on this piece of a much larger whole kill Apple? Of course not. Apple makes revenue from MANY things, not just this one thing. They'll replace whatever could get taken by competitors and then some by innovating other stuff (products & services) to sell. They're GREAT at that.

Taking an App Store and making it a public utility is not competition. Competition is building and innovating from the ground up. Not some regulation declaring App Store keys have to be given away for free.

 

[CoMoMacUser]

The last time I went to a third-party app store, all of my hubcaps were stolen. Never again.

 

[Naraxus]

Isn’t it incredibly nice to have choices though? For example, suppose Apple- in pursuit of "another record quarter" or some such business objective- decided to up book prices by 3X-5X above market (like Apple RAM or SSD upgrades). If they were your only choice of where to get books… and you still wanted books… you’d have to pay 3X-5X more for books. If they opted to make that 8X or 10X and you want books, you pay 8X or 10X.

Don't the publishers set the price of their ebooks?

 

[russell_314]

My issue with this is it’s not going to be a choice. People supporting multiple stores or sideloading say well how can you be against choice. I’m all for choice, but this isn’t going to be a choice. I will be forced to use different app stores if I want the same apps I have now because some developers will move to their own store or side loading.

This means no more privacy controls or verifying apps are not malicious. It also means no more safe in app purchases.

 

[Naraxus]

Sorry your word salad has ranch, bleu cheese and Gorgonzola dressing.

Can you word this a bit differently next time please? I'm extremely hungry and a salad with bleu cheese sounds so damn good🥗😊

 

[haruhiko]

Two types of people that love alternative App Stores - nerds, and scammers.

 

[macfacts]

Wrong.

iPhone is less secure when, in order to run an existing app which migrates to a third-party app store, one must now install the third party app store when they otherwise would not. This may require placing one's payment information into yet another online service, thereby increasing risk of fraud, identity theft, etc. This ignores any risk the third party store app introduces to the device itself, which admittedly may be minimal, but it's not zero.

Your assertion is completely and easily debunked.

Ever hear of Paypal or prepaid visa? You don't have to give any payment info to alternative app stores.

 

[icanhazmac]

Ever hear of Paypal or prepaid visa? You don't have to give any payment info to alternative app stores.

Oh hell no on Paypal, I. don't care for some of their business stances.

While I would not enjoy the extra work, a prepaid or virtual card could be a solution to minimize exposure. I have been wanting to learn more about things like privacy.com etc.

It is still an unnecessary step, I'd rather just stick with Apple as the payment processor.

 

[Astuces iOS]

So as a developer, I prefer the Apple Store only because otherwise it could be bad for some reasons… for example when I submit an app version to the App Store, it’s reviewed by apple before the submission to the App Store !

If we accept third party stores well there might not be this review so :

- We can get malwares

- We can get apps that aren’t fully ready to be released (not 100% functional)

- We can get bad informations about the app (so for example it says it’s 4+ but in reality it could be +18!!)

- Others things could happen and 1 store is more simple !

So yeah I definitively like 1 store !

 

[WilliApple]

They want it to be easy for the consumer. It would be very confusing if there were 50 different app stores that you had to download apps from.

Some developers don't like it because of money mainly.

As for me, I put my apps in the Apple App Store and that's it. No web distribution, just App Store, even on macOS. I want it to be easy for people to find my apps.