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emraha06

macrumors regular
Original poster
Dec 1, 2017
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60 hz refresh rate is very very old standard and most of the brands in market prefers 75 120 or 144hz values in their display products. There are lots of laptops with 75hz or above. But Apple still uses 60 hz on their products. The pro display xdr is the most advanced product of Apple but it has only 60hz refresh rate and it is unknown but the pixel response time is not so good as well. Why a brand ilke Apple make these kind of choices???
 
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frou

macrumors 6502a
Mar 14, 2009
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While high-refresh is nice for the smoothness it gives even 2D application use, let's be honest, these monitors are almost entirely for gaming.

Apple as a company has a clear disinterest in "hardcore gaming" so it's not surprising.
 
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Stephen.R

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Nov 2, 2018
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Asus ROG Strix XG438Q
Samsung 49” CRG9
Right so that’s a 4K display using about as much DisplayPort1.4 bandwidth as it can get to run at 120hz

The pro display is 6k, and already needs two DP streams to run.

You may as well ask why the Asus is only 4K at 43”.

Every product ever produced ever has to make tradeoffs.

Ausus chose refresh rate over resolution because their market is gamers.

Apple chose resolution over refresh rate because their market is creative professionals.
 
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emraha06

macrumors regular
Original poster
Dec 1, 2017
188
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Right so that’s a 4K display using about as much DisplayPort1.4 bandwidth as it can get to run at 120hz

The pro display is 6k, and already needs two DP streams to run.

You may as well ask why the Asus is only 4K at 43”.

Every product ever produced ever has to make tradeoffs.

Ausus chose refresh rate over resolution because their market is gamers.

Apple chose resolution over refresh rate because their market is creative professionals.

how can you create animation or make game design without high refresh rate...

do you really accept blurry images in dynamic view and teribble texts during scrolling? Is this acceptable for designers?
 
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RogerWilco6502

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Jan 12, 2019
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how can you create animation or make game design without high refresh rate...

do you really accept blurry images in dynamic view and teribble texts during scrolling? Is this acceptable for designers?
Well, TV refresh rate has been 60Hz for quite some time and it has never caused an issue. I'd hazard to guess that the same is true for computer displays.
 
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Stephen.R

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do you really accept blurry images in dynamic view
... I don't really know what you're referring to by 'dynamic view', but complaining about blurry images and suggesting a 4k/49" screen (a PPI just over 100, the same as Apple displays from nearly 2 decades ago) as the 'solution' at the same time seems... odd.

teribble texts during scrolling

I don't usually try to read text and scroll at the same time, but that's just me.
 
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retta283

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Jun 8, 2018
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Victoria, British Columbia
CRTs had high refresh rates at the cost of screen resolution. For gaming this was excellent, and one of the reasons I used CRTs for so long. I purchased my first LCD in 2001, but they didn't become standardized for me until about 2004-05.

Most of Apple's current lineup is consumer-oriented, and consumers couldn't care less about refresh rate. I do not expect higher refresh rates in iMacs. Maybe a future 16" MBP or XDR, but that is it.
 
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zerozoneice

macrumors 6502
Jun 26, 2013
308
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LG's 4K 144Hz panels cost more than 5-6x as much as the 5k60 ones currently used in the iMacs/iMac Pro's. That's just raw OEM panel cost.
guy asked for a reference, i gave it to him.
besides, what are you talking about?

Ultrafine 5K 27MDL5KL
1180 GBP

LG27GN950
750 GBP
 
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GiantKiwi

macrumors regular
Jun 13, 2016
145
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Cambridge, UK
guy asked for a reference, i gave it to him.
besides, what are you talking about?

Ultrafine 5K 27MDL5KL
1180 GBP

LG27GN950
750 GBP
You missed the point.

Not the monitor as an entire unit, the internal component that is the LCD panel on its own.
 
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Stephen.R

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umm, LG? duhh

That's actually a good example of why the XDR doesn't. That display is 4K, or 8.29 million pixels and requires DSC to run at 144hz.

The XDR is 6K, or 20.3 million pixels. As explained <checks notes> 8 months ago in this same thread, every product has compromises - computers aren't magic.


To give you an example, the way this thread was posed:

Why does the LG27GN950 display have a PPI of just 160? LG themselves have been making panels at ~220 PPI since 2016, so why don't they use those panels everywhere?
 
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zerozoneice

macrumors 6502
Jun 26, 2013
308
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You missed the point.

Not the monitor as an entire unit, the internal component that is the LCD panel on its own.

i may be missing the point, but are you saying that LG is selling a 4000 USD panel in a 800 USD monitor on the 4K 144hz model (just relative to the 5-6x ratio you mentioned) ?!

@Stephen.R yea, we know that the LG panel by itself is not the whole story in the Apple world, they do have their own custom controllers since way back. But nevertheless...

the whole reason imho is that for Apple the panel needs to have "retina" capability, meaning certain ppi/dpi. And there's still nothing out there with refresh rates above 60hz for 220+ ppi panels at whatever size (useful for monitors that is, not tablets)

i myself am looking at the 27" 4K 144hz monitor to set up a future hackintosh rig, knowing that retina will be available only at 1080 resolution, but that's just me, i'm fine with that slightly larger (as opposed to default 1440p retina on the 5K/27" iMac - which i sometimes find sliiightly too small) font on the 27" screen
 
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Stephen.R

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yea, we know that the LG panel by itself is not the whole story in the Apple world, they do have their own custom controllers since way back.

I'm not sure what point you think I was trying to make, but that isn't it. My point is that any product, regardless of who it's made by, has compromises, and priorities.

In the case of displays, various factors affect how much data is being pushed across whatever transport connects the panel to the graphics processor: resolution, refresh rate, bits per pixel.

It's kinda like the quote about project management: Good. Fast. Cheap; pick any two.

In terms of the limits of display transport technology, you literally can't "max out" all factors, one or more aspects are always going to be lower than the absolute maximum they could be.

The linked LG 4K 144Hz display was released august this year (2020) and is the direct successor to a 1440p/144hz display - for that model they've clearly chosen to make high refresh rate (which I suppose makes sense for a gaming monitor) the key factor. Yes it also has 10bit colour, but as I said, it's "only" 4K. While that may be fine for the target market (where higher resolution is often not helpful because a lot of customers can't/won't run the game at higher resolutions anyway), it's significantly lower than even the 5K 27" display, and it's much lower resolution than the 6K 32" display. Those both focus on resolution and bit depth. This is my whole point. Different products; Different priorities.


No one goes into a ford dealership and asks why the new Mustang doesn't have room for a dirt bike in the back, when the <insert competing brand's pickup truck/ute> can.


i myself am looking at the 27" 4K 144hz monitor to set up a future hackintosh rig, knowing that retina will be available only at 1080 resolution, but that's just me, i'm fine with that slightly larger (as opposed to default 1440p retina on the 5K/27" iMac - which i sometimes find sliiightly too small) font on the 27" screen

You may well be fine with it. I personally wouldn't accept a PPI that low, and I definitely would recommend trying things out before committing to a purchase if you can. I'm using two 4K 24" displays, and even on these, 1920x1080 is too low for the "looks like" resolution. Thankfully macOS' hi-dpi mode scales, so I run them at "looks like 2304x1296", and it's mostly fine (wouldn't hurt to have a bit more oomph than what the 2018 Mini has for GPU though).
 
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zerozoneice

macrumors 6502
Jun 26, 2013
308
46
You may well be fine with it. I personally wouldn't accept a PPI that low, and I definitely would recommend trying things out before committing to a purchase if you can. I'm using two 4K 24" displays, and even on these, 1920x1080 is too low for the "looks like" resolution. Thankfully macOS' hi-dpi mode scales, so I run them at "looks like 2304x1296", and it's mostly fine (wouldn't hurt to have a bit more oomph than what the 2018 Mini has for GPU though).

yeah but anything that "looks like" is not the default pure retina (2x scaling) and it's visible.
that's why the 27" iMac has 5K res, not 4K, to enable 1440p retina on a 27" screen, which is the go-to resolution for 27" panels anyway (2560x1440). I also had a Dell 24" 4K screen and 1080 retina looked perfect (text size-wise) for my eyes. Unfortunately they don't make 4K 144hz displays lower than 27" so "i'm stuck" with the LG....once it becomes available and maybe a bit cheaper.

But yeah, back on topic....anything more than 60Hz would be not bad to have.
Hell, even mobile phones (and apparently next iphone) will have 120hz.
 
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Stephen.R

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yeah but anything that "looks like" is not the default pure retina (2x scaling) and it's visible.

If you set a 4K display to straight @2x scaling, it labels it "looks like 1920x1080". I understand what you mean that non-integer scaling is "less optimal" both visually and performance wise, but it's labeled "looks like" for all pixel-doubled resolutions regardless of whether they're an even integer scaling factor.

As for the visual difference: I'm in my mid 30s, don't wear glasses and generally have fine eyesight. Even on 24", the slightly less crisp appearance of some things is nowhere near as annoying as buttons and UI elements being sized like a "my first words" book for toddlers, as it is when set to straight @2x scaling. I can't imagine how anyone with OK eyesight can could use a 27" at 1920x1080.
 
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zerozoneice

macrumors 6502
Jun 26, 2013
308
46
If you set a 4K display to straight @2x scaling, it labels it "looks like 1920x1080". I understand what you mean that non-integer scaling is "less optimal" both visually and performance wise, but it's labeled "looks like" for all pixel-doubled resolutions regardless of whether they're an even integer scaling factor.

As for the visual difference: I'm in my mid 30s, don't wear glasses and generally have fine eyesight. Even on 24", the slightly less crisp appearance of some things is nowhere near as annoying as buttons and UI elements being sized like a "my first words" book for toddlers, as it is when set to straight @2x scaling. I can't imagine how anyone with OK eyesight can could use a 27" at 1920x1080.
yeah well, my eyesight is also fine but after having to stare at the same monitor up close for more than 6 months i simply cannot take it anymore :)

i need to move further away from the screen which makes 1440p retina kind of tiny and 1080p just about ok-ish.
i don't code/do gfx so i don't care about screen estate

running 720p retina on my current 2560x1440p 144hz 27" is toddler-like indeed.
native 1440p or even hidpi 1080 (tricked via switchresx) doesn't look sharp enough
 
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Falhófnir

macrumors 603
Aug 19, 2017
5,159
5,774
With the Macs I think they have been waiting for Apple Silicon so they can use their own integrated timing controller to get the dynamic rate just so. ProMotion is more than just high refresh rate, it's also changing it to suit what's on screen in real time seamlessly. With the XDR I can only guess refresh rate is a lesser concern to the colour accuracy and HDR aspects, and the 6K resolution might make it difficult to have it all.
 
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Stephen.R

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Nov 2, 2018
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native 1440p or even hidpi 1080 (tricked via switchresx) doesn't look sharp enough
Because your display is not "high" DPI. It's almost like Apple knew this would look ****, and that's why they don't enable pixel-doubling resolutions on screens with a low resolution. I'd imagine it also looks ***** if you try to use it on one of those crazy 40+ inch displays with like 4k*2k or whatever they use - they're all roughly ~110 PPI.

The entire reason Apple's option for UI scaling works, is because at high DPI most people won't see the physical pixels.
 
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zerozoneice

macrumors 6502
Jun 26, 2013
308
46
Because your display is not "high" DPI. It's almost like Apple knew this would look ****, and that's why they don't enable pixel-doubling resolutions on screens with a low resolution. I'd imagine it also looks ***** if you try to use it on one of those crazy 40+ inch displays with like 4k*2k or whatever they use - they're all roughly ~110 PPI.

The entire reason Apple's option for UI scaling works, is because at high DPI most people won't see the physical pixels.
yea well switchresx creates a virtual resolution larger than the physical one, basically emulating 3840x2160 on a 2560x1440 screen and therefore tricks macos to enable native pixel doubling for 1080p. I can see a difference but it's not as sharp and accurate as "proper" 720p hidpi on a 2560x1440, but still a bit better than no hidpi mode at all (like running native 2560x1440p).

i even tried emulating 5K (5120x2880) and using 1440p hidpi but it's not as good as 1080p hidpi (using virtual 4K res)
resolutions aside, boy i love the smoothness of 144hz even in desktop mode and wouldn't go back to 60 for anything.

even the 120hz in the "older" 4K Acer Nitro/Predator monitors (with 1 DP cable) would be just fine.
 
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