What is funny is when the 2017 models came out here in New Zealand compared to the 2016 models, prices went down. What was before options became standard.
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Why does the touchbar receive so much hate?
- Thread starter Jacoblee23
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Actually, it's not just the premium price. There is also a 'premium feel', premium build quality, etc. And those are just some of the reasons one product can cost more then next one. Price isn't premium by itself. Never has been, never will be.
I asked a rather simple question, about premium + price. And you respond with shareholders? Really?
Well, of course mac sales are dropping. MBP wasn't updated in a while, Airs are outdated for a long time, mac mini + mac pro lineup is a joke. Those are the primary reasons of dropped sales. Why would anyone buy a really outdated tech, unless they have to?
First quote:
Not true actually. MS isn't a hardware company. Even though they made some hardware in past, but they only make it to show what they want from other companies to build. And then sell/rent software. They have been doing it for ages. Nothing has changed there.
Second and third quote:
Intel is stagnating. For a long time. So sales are down because of that. And so are profits. So you conclude they have to raise the prices? And after that in second quote you conclude prices have nothing to do with individual components?
Prices haven't changed for Intel hardware that MBP uses. And no new hardware besides TB has been introduced. Just upgraded tech. And a redesign. But prices still went up. By a lot. So I will ask you once more, if TB isn't a reason for that increase of price, what is? It's not the stagnant sales, since before Apple stopped updating macs in general, macs were in a all time high as far as sales and even profit are concerned.
I'm glad that is the case. But only fallacy in reasoning I see here is yours. You see, 'shareholders' is not the right answer here. First you claimed that it's the 'premium computer', now it's just the price that is premium.
You have to decide which is it. Otherwise, I really see no point in having this debate at all
MBP is selling very good? You have any actual numbers of 2016/17 version and how many has Apple actually sold? I know there was a spike in order of MBP, but the 2015 version, just after Apple announced the redesigned version.
And what is it that you do on your MBP? I am a developer. And I can honestly say that 15" with TB is completely useless to me. Not because of the keyboard (I love butterfly switches, I just don't love the lousy quality of them), or the ports. Just because of the TB.
Actually, P50 has a rather good trackpad. Good as MBP? Of course not. MBP has a way better trackpad. But you see, if the trackpad on P50 annoyed me, I could use a mouse. With TB I don't have a choice. Except to abandon ship.
And the weight of the laptop is important for what actually? 15" isn't that portable no matter the weight. But my 64GB of ram are, more then enough storage are, way better keyboard is also very important. I don't have problems with ports on MBP, but most people would rather they have all the ports from P50, then just 4 of the same ports on MBP.
Weight? Sorry, but it's a mobile workstation, not a toy.
Then ban me from the forum if you can't take the heat. Turn me in to the mod gods. You obviously have read through these forums and already have determined why the touchbar is disliked so much. So to start yet another thread on a topic which you already know the answers to smacks of fanning the flames to create controversy. Wow.
Just got MacBook Pro 15 2016
Am I the only one concerned about amoled persistency issue?
Not sure how much would it cost to fix a broken touch bar.
Am I the only one concerned about amoled persistency issue?
Not sure how much would it cost to fix a broken touch bar.
I gotta say it's pretty useful to have. It's not something you buy it for, but it's a hell of a lot more useful than F keys. Being able to fill out web checkout forms / anything that requires your information is lightning quick especially when you have multiple common addresses, phone numbers, emails, etc to fill out. Autocomplete goes from a few taps to one. If that were its ONLY function, I'd vouch for the touch bar still. Touch ID, history view in Photoshop, quick opacity sliders in multiple apps, etc are all nice to have.
No, the main thing I responded to was the idea that Touch Bar made the MBP more expensive. No it didn't, with or without the TB, the new MBP would cost more, and I explained this to you, noticing that you're ignoring the computer around it.
Computer sales are dropping in general.
Haha. No, they aren't.
Mac Pro and Mac Mini were always a small percentage of Mac sales. Your point? Again, premium computers have to cost more these days because PC sales are slowing down. It has nothing to do with Touch Bar, sales of Mac Mini, etc.
You misunderstood - MS is charging 2-3k for their laptops because they understand this is the new price range for premium laptops. That's what I meant.
Yes. There are no significant CPU jumps to justify people buying new computers on a regular basis.
So, the price increase has nothing to do with individual components in terms of individual prices (the CPUs are not becoming more expensive, but they are not advancing fast enough for people to buy whole computers).
I explained it to you. Re-read what I wrote, please.
It mostly is.
Macs were growing all until relatively recently.
It's over simplified, true - but it's a lot better and realistic answer than "Touch Bar is making the MBP more expensive".
Premium category of computer. I am not sure how you fail to understand this.
You have to decide which is it. Otherwise, I really see no point in having this debate at all
I have decided. You just don't get what I'm saying.
I am the art director for an Unreal 4 hack & slash action RPG that's in development.
Hey, you can like or dislike whatever you like, but if the Touch Bar is making this computer "completely useless" to you, honestly, I'd never hire you.
To you.
Weight is important for mobile workstations. Perhaps your job requirements are different. Clearly, this wasn't designed for you. You are projecting your needs and tastes on others, though.
You have explained how? Shareholders? That is the explanation? Well, ok then...
They are dropping for a long time now. They were dropping while mac sales were up. So your point here is?
Well, this part of your posts is one of the best arguments yet. At least you haven't lost your train of thoughts
Mac minis and Mac Pro are small part - true. But you failed to include MBP that I have also listed there. As you failed to include Air. Those make up a small percentage as well I guess? Well then, what makes up for the rest of percentage?
MS is always charging more then pc makers. And the explanation is quite simple - since they sell/rent software to other companies, they don't want to be their competitors. MS is losing money on Surface lineups. And a great deal of money. You really think their end game is to become another Apple? LOL?
Ok. My point was - no other component has increased in price. So we can finally agree on that. And TB is the only new component in this MBP lineup. So what gives then?
Well - duh!
Of course I am stating my own opinion. For who else would I be talking about? And who is projecting what exactly here? I've stated my opinion on price increase and TB, and get hammered by you by doing so. So tell me please, who is projecting here?
One more quote:
Well, to be honest, no I don't. And it's not hard to see why. You see, this is your quote that started our discussion:
And after I simply asked what is it then that increased the price, this is a quote from you:
So then, which one of those is it?
Because, to be honest, you are basically claiming that something is costing premium just because it has a premium price. And that makes no sense to me.
I'm really looking forward to reading your answer. I just hope it makes some sense to me, so we can have an actual debate instead of this... Whatever it is
To me Apple is just focusing on the metrics, where it can make the $$$$ with the Mac, hence the design of the new MBP. Apple may well be finally waking up to the disgruntled professional community, equally too little, too late, and likely with the same inherent issues.
New MBP is very much focused as a consumer product for those with adequate expendable income. Certainly in my own field people are either holding on to their older portable Mac's or switching to Windows based alternatives, as Apple is simply far too slow to respond, nor seems to care that it's professional community is diminishing.
Once 100% Apple, today I am about to retire the last Mac employed professionally, as for Apple's sales team my only comment is inadequate...
Q-6
New MBP is very much focused as a consumer product for those with adequate expendable income. Certainly in my own field people are either holding on to their older portable Mac's or switching to Windows based alternatives, as Apple is simply far too slow to respond, nor seems to care that it's professional community is diminishing.
Once 100% Apple, today I am about to retire the last Mac employed professionally, as for Apple's sales team my only comment is inadequate...
Q-6
You have explained how? Shareholders? That is the explanation? Well, ok then...
They are dropping for a long time now. They were dropping while mac sales were up. So your point here is?
Well, this part of your posts is one of the best arguments yet. At least you haven't lost your train of thoughts
Mac minis and Mac Pro are small part - true. But you failed to include MBP that I have also listed there. As you failed to include Air. Those make up a small percentage as well I guess? Well then, what makes up for the rest of percentage?
MS is always charging more then pc makers. And the explanation is quite simple - since they sell/rent software to other companies, they don't want to be their competitors. MS is losing money on Surface lineups. And a great deal of money. You really think their end game is to become another Apple? LOL?
Ok. My point was - no other component has increased in price. So we can finally agree on that. And TB is the only new component in this MBP lineup. So what gives then?
Well - duh!
Of course I am stating my own opinion. For who else would I be talking about? And who is projecting what exactly here? I've stated my opinion on price increase and TB, and get hammered by you by doing so. So tell me please, who is projecting here?
One more quote:
Well, to be honest, no I don't. And it's not hard to see why. You see, this is your quote that started our discussion:
And after I simply asked what is it then that increased the price, this is a quote from you:
So then, which one of those is it?
Because, to be honest, you are basically claiming that something is costing premium just because it has a premium price. And that makes no sense to me.
I'm really looking forward to reading your answer. I just hope it makes some sense to me, so we can have an actual debate instead of this... Whatever it is
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I have the 2017 base 15. The only feature I regularly use of the touch bar in the month I had is Touch ID.
If you for example wanted to go to the address bar in safari or most browsers since I don't know when. You'd just press command L. How is it easier to remove your fingers from the keys. Hit the button and put them back? Same for switching tabs etc.
I didn't purchase the pro for the bar so I'm happy. As I don't look at the keyboard. I honestly seldom remember it's there during normal use.
Yes. A very simplified one, of course there are numerous factors, but - as I said - it is a more truthful explanation than "it is more expensive because they added the Touch Bar".
Point is that Apple was always going to raise the MBP price, with or without the TB. Until recently, Mac sales were still growing and the profits were growing. Then they started to fall, so they raised the price. They did a similar thing with iPad Pros, and this year they are going to do the same thing with the iPhone (although, for a bit more complex reasons that are beyond the topic of this discussion)
If the Mac sales were still growing, the Touch Bar Mac would cost just like the 2015 model in 2015.
Sigh, we're going in circles. The MBP, MB and Air make most of Mac sales, and Apple needed to find a way to grow profits, so they raised the price of the MBP, introduced the nTB MBP and MB as more expensive replacements to the aging Air.
Verge has an ok article that explains this, both for the Macs and for Surface computers:
https://www.theverge.com/2016/10/28...pc-surface-macbook-prices-expensive-exclusive
You obviously are either unable or unwilling to understand. I will repeat one last time.
MBP did not increase in price because of any component, so it does not matter if TB is the only new component or not. It increased in price because that's the only way Apple can grow profits with the Mac.
Well, the fact it makes no sense to you does not mean it's not the truth.
"Premium" is a price category. Usually, it means the product is made out of best materials/components/manufacturing process compared to the rest of the market - that is why people often use the term to describe what they think is higher quality. In the case of computers, 'premium' computers are usually made out of metal, contain high-spec components, best screens, etc. We call these "premium materials" because they are usually used on computers in the premium price category. They don't have to be used, though. For example, Microsoft is using alcantara for the Surface Laptop, which is a premium laptop, because it looks fancy and, marketing-wise, justifies the price - but is, in reality, a very cheap material.
Anyway, their price is mostly not dictated by component price (that's why you have very cheap high-performance computers). If it was, a Surface Pro wouldn't cost all the way to $2700. It costs the same as a spec-comparable MacBook Pro 13", and it doesn't have a Touch Bar. By your logic, it should be cheaper for a couple of hundred dollars, since the TB is adding that price to the MBP.
The price of computers is dictated by profit margins which greatly depend on the number of units sold. Since every business needs to grow, you can either grow the number of sales, or the price.
In other words, Apple set the price/profit they needed to hit, and then made a computer that meets those numbers and (according to them) justifies that price.
I'm really looking forward to reading your answer. I just hope it makes some sense to me, so we can have an actual debate instead of this... Whatever it is
Nah, it won't make sense. You're just ignoring what I say and repeating the same thing. This is my last response to this.
Well, this time I am ignoring your response. Because, first time it's because of the premium computer, second time price is premium because it costs premium.
And to be honest, after reading this below:
I kinda lost interest in reading any further. You probably won't understand why, but it doesn't matter.
We can agree to disagree.
Cya
For anyone else claiming that MBPs got more expensive because of the Touch Bar, and don't want to read my long posts, again, here is a nice text that explains it
https://www.theverge.com/2016/10/28...pc-surface-macbook-prices-expensive-exclusive
Premium PC price is getting more expensive and that's just it. MBP was going to be more expensive than the previous model, with or without the Touch Bar. You may dislike the TB, but it's not the reason why the MBP costs more.
https://www.theverge.com/2016/10/28...pc-surface-macbook-prices-expensive-exclusive
Premium PC price is getting more expensive and that's just it. MBP was going to be more expensive than the previous model, with or without the Touch Bar. You may dislike the TB, but it's not the reason why the MBP costs more.
It's very simple; Apple holds a monopoly on OS X based hardware, charges what it believes the market will bear. MBP is clearly overpriced, equally that's nothing new, Apple wants a margin of approximately 30% or greater on it's product. Only valid question is are you willing to pay the asking price, as Apple is never going to reduce it's pricing significantly.
Also has to be said, equally appointed Windows 10 notebook can easily equal and exceed the price of a MBP. Personally the pricing is very far from the top of the purchasing factors. A more rational way to look at is the MBP would be cheaper if an equal specified version was offered without the Touch Bar, equally the price differential would be small indeed, possibly as little as $100 USD.
The MBP is not expensive (relative) due to the Touch Bar, it's priced accordingly as it's Apple...
Q-6
I don't "hate" it.
I hate the fact that apple have jacked the price of macbook pros by about 500 bucks on machines with it, and it is mandatory if you want a macbook pro with higher spec CPU and more thunderbolt ports.
THAT i suspect is why most people hate it.
Some hate it due to them lack of physical function keys and escape, but i don't care so much about that.
I just hate that I don't think it's worth 500 bucks and i'm forced into it if i want a decent Macbook Pro.
I both agree and disagree. First - where I agree is the relative price of MBP due to TB. I agree the difference without the TB would be $100 at maximum (note that Apple may decide to offer a, say, $300-500 cheaper 15" without the TB, but it would most likely come with a lower clocked CPU, worse GPU, smaller drive, etc - this difference would not be due to the lack of TB).
My point here is that a lot of people on this forum seem to think that the MBP would cost just as the old one (as it did in 2015) if Apple didn't include the TB. I am convinced that is not the case. I believe Apple had a price (plus that 30% or greater margin) set from the beginning, then just built the best computer they could (or believed to be the best) around that price.
They may decide to offer a lower cost model, and perhaps omit the TB to increase the margins, or stimulate buying the more expensive model, but again, presence of lack of TB would be a consequence, not the cause of the price.
Or, lets put it this way: it's not like they said "hey, let's add the TB, even though it will increase the price". It's more likely it was "We want to hit this price. What cool things can we put inside to try to justify that price to our customers".
The part where I don't agree with you is that MBP is "clearly" overpriced. I don't want to debate you here, as we clearly have different views on this. I would just like to give my opinion here - that the value of the product is relative and personal. If you measure by Mhz or Gb or FLOPS - then even the Surface is overpriced, compared to cheaper hardware with similar specs. If you measure by personal value - then it's really hard to estimate what is better. For example, if I enjoy the MBP a lot more than a Surface, if it's more comfortable for me to use - then it offers more value to me. If this value is worth the price difference for me, then the MBP is not overpriced. I'm not saying it's not expensive, I'm not saying I wished it cost less - and I'm certainly not saying you should agree with me - but I am saying that "overpriced" or "underpriced" is connected to value something has to you personally, and that is - well, by definition - a personal thing.
For example, every single piece of jewlery is overpriced in my eyes. And yet, I know people who buy a $500 necklace and claim it was "a steal".
The problem with computers is that there is a group of people that consider them only as tools with objectively measured performance. Basically - it's a hammer. I think, however, "sports gear" is a better analogy. Sure there are certain "specs" that are measurable - durability, friction, performance, etc. (I'm not really a sports person, so I'm sure I'm saying this wrong, but you can understand what I mean) - but there is also this other moment: "I simply enjoy these shoes the most while I play basketball, and since I want to be at peak performance, I will pay extra for something that I simply like more".
For me, the MBP is the nicest notebook in this performance range. If I require something outside this range (say, 32Gb RAM or an Nvidia GPU) then it doesn't matter how nice it is - I can't use it. But the MBP meets my performance needs, so out of all the computers in this range - it's the nicest to me. Surface is also very nice, and a solid alternative, for example, but a Lenovo or a Dell just isn't there. For me. So, I'm paying for that niceness, and in the long term, due to the fact that this computer is so important to me, it's worth it to me. So for me it's expensive, but not overpriced.
Understand what I mean?
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I don't disagree, to me the computer is a tool, equally I too prefer well appointed tools that meet my expectations. When I speak of being over priced I'm rather generalising. From a manufacturing point of view Apple could easily share it's saving due to it's massive Economy of Scale, Apple simply chooses not to, as it has no reason too, as long as Mac sales meet it's internal revenue targets.
These days I consider Apple to be more overpriced and less premium, as the once intrinsic value is diminished, as equally has the competition's increased significantly of late. Frankly Windows based replacements to my 12" & 13" Mac's run rings round their Apple predecessors, workflow dependant yes, inaccurate no...
Bottom line is; I expect far more of Apple...
Q-6
I agree with you. Lets forget about the P3 display? Or even faster SSDs? The display alone should be worth the price increase IMO.
New tech costs a premium, more mature tech generally reduces in cost. Really it all boils down to the value point of the individual. Personally I have reasons why I wont purchase the new MBP, equally the price point is not one of them..
Q-6
Oh wow. Clearly you never used the 15" MB. I commute almost 4 hours a days with mine and I appreciate the weight. I use mine almost 100% for work, so, um, clearly its not a toy.
[doublepost=1502138591][/doublepost]
No its not. Its not even centered. I tried one once and its beyond awful.
So lets sum up....
Things you don't care about
1. weight of laptop
2. quality of laptop trackpad
Things you can't tolerate
1. TouchBar
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I take my P50 with me as well. But I don't commute the way you do. I travel from one place to another. And when I get to where I am going, I'm usually at that spot for 2-3 days, or even a month at a time. So I always dock my laptop to external monitor and keyboard, mouse as well. But if I had to commute the way you do, of course, weight would become a problem.
Really? So you have tried it once, and it's beyond awful? Good thing you have got a lot of experience there...
1) I care about weight. But it's not a deciding factor to me.
2) I care about that as well. But also, not a deciding factor to me.
This one is true. And I still don't understand why is that a problem to some people here? You find it useful? Great, good for you. I find it to be a complete and unnecessary gimmick. Can we just call it 'game over' on this one? Or this bothers you?
