Why have so many become NFC/Apple Pay snobs?

[Davelfc]

I cannot even use apple pay, I still have an iPhone 5s and I'm in the UK.

However card fraud is foremost in my mind whenever I am out shopping or withdrawing money from cash machines. I've been burnt before, luckily I was not out of pocket.

I am over in the US a lot and it's always amused me that I can just swipe my card at a self pay till and walk away with goods. i say amuse, it scares the hell out of me as well.

Then Apple come along with what appears to be quite a secure way of performing transactions, using a fingerprint and tokens. It sounds pretty impressive and although nothing is ever totally safe, this appears to be one of the best yet.

Then companies disable this feature because of greed, thinking only of themselves and not of the security of their customers. I think it's right that people then choose to offer their business to other companies that do value their customers security.

Am I mad, no. I have no reason to be. I never really get mad at companies, I just choose other companies to get my money.

 

[rui no onna]

Did they ever intentionally offer it or was it just that NFC was turned on and thus it worked until they disabled NFC?

The latter.

I believe signing up for MCX includes an exclusivity agreement disallowing other mobile payment options. Google wallet probably just sailed under the radar but when Apple Pay started making news it became an issue they had to deal with to maintain the exclusivity agreement. I don't know what the penalities would be, but probably enough to risk a backlash.

The thing is CurrentC doesn't even exist large-scale yet and even if it did, I sure wouldn't trust them with my info. Banks are already a necessary evil (unless I just hoard cash and other valuables in a safe at home or something) so might as well stick with the current Amex/Visa/MC system. CurrentC primarily benefits retailers, not consumers. To be honest, gimmicks like the one RiteAid and CVS pulled just make me prefer shopping at Amazon and other online stores even more.

 

[deeddawg]

The thing is CurrentC doesn't even exist large-scale yet and even if it did, I sure wouldn't trust them with my info.

Agreed. I'm not seeing any benefit to the consumer and lots of downsides.

 

[s.hasan546]

Because when Google did it no one cared.



Apple is the one company with the clout to make NFC payments take off in the US. People are upset over it because some retailers themselves have stepped in to try and cripple the technology as a result.

It's not that no one cared, it's that Google & the carriers crippled it. Google didn't release it on all android devices and carriers like Verizon blocked it bc they wanted to launch their own ****** service.

 

[inkahauts]

Don't take this the wrong way, but I've noticed one thing since the introduction of Apple Pay that didn't seem to be present when there was only Google Wallet. People have become way too snobbish towards Apple Pay. Why is everyone getting so bent out of shape when their favorite retailers or even retailers they probably don't shop at in the first place are disabling NFC/Apple Pay? I get that NFC may or may not be the future of how we pay, but refusing to pay any other way other than Apple Pay is getting out of hand. Don't you think? Admittedly I've been an Android user for the past few years with access to Google Wallet, but I just don't see the allure of NFC. To me it's almost like a novelty. Maybe I'm the only one? Sorry for the rant, but I'm trying to understand the hype with Apple Pay. Is there some incentive to this over conventional credit card use? I never use cash if that helps and almost always pay by credit, but I'm trying to see the bigger picture I guess.



Maybe everyone's just excited because this is something new. Perhaps the hype will die down after the "newness" wears off.



/Rant over.

For me it's because Apple pay is more secure than a regular credit card. And some companies are literally going out of the way to disable it and trying to launch a new program that is less secure and requires more personal information than a credit card. That to me is backwards rude disrespectful and treating me like I'm an idiot.

Oh and also that new program they're trying to launch would gather all kinds of additional personal information and sell it to other retailers to continually send you advertising stuff.

 

[mattroman246]

Really..?

 

[thingstoponder]

Thank you OP. The 2000 replies in the CVS thread had me rolling my eyes.

These people refuse to shop at a place that doesn't use a service that didn't exist a couple week ago. Oh how ever will they survive?

 

[samiznaetekto]

It's because of that ephemeral worship that Apple still gets, the inertia of Steve's legacy: "if Apple does something, it must be good". In reality, it will flop like Ping or Maps. Once something big happens to it, similar to iCloud celebrity scandal, iOS 8.0.1 circus, iCloud data loss, etc. - people will lose their trust to Apple.

 

[Rollo220]

Why have so many become NFC/Apple Pay snobs?

This is an answer I can get down with. However having used both iPhones and Android devices I don't know that I trust either company over the other. However I'll say, the only way to be safe with Android is to make sure you only download from a trusted company and make sure it is from the Google Play Store.



I had my bank/check card compromised a few years back and it was being used around Europe for small amounts. Luckily my bank caught this. My question is this because I haven't really looked into it. But how would Apple Pay be more secure than traditional methods. I feel like your info is vulnerable either way.

How is it vulnerable "either way"? Google wallet has no tokenization, no secure element, no biometrics. Google wallet is just sending your CC number over NFC unsecured.

You would have to be completely unfamiliar with either one system or both to equate their security. On the one hand its literally impossible to hack apple pay, on the other you have the very high likelihood that at some point Google Wallet WILL be hacked.


CurrentC is far worse than either system and provides none of the benefits.

 

[deeddawg]

Google wallet has no tokenization, no secure element, no biometrics. Google wallet is just sending your CC number over NFC unsecured.

Are you sure about the lack of tokenization and that CC info is in the phone with Google Wallet?

In fairness, I believe Google Wallet stored the credit card info on Google's servers not on the phone, and also uses tokenization generated from those servers. Not as clean as the Apple Pay implementation, but not completely unsecure either.

 

[PacificBeach]

Don't take this the wrong way, but I've noticed one thing since the introduction of Apple Pay that didn't seem to be present when there was only Google Wallet. People have become way too snobbish towards Apple Pay. Why is everyone getting so bent out of shape when their favorite retailers or even retailers they probably don't shop at in the first place are disabling NFC/Apple Pay? I get that NFC may or may not be the future of how we pay, but refusing to pay any other way other than Apple Pay is getting out of hand. Don't you think? Admittedly I've been an Android user for the past few years with access to Google Wallet, but I just don't see the allure of NFC. To me it's almost like a novelty. Maybe I'm the only one? Sorry for the rant, but I'm trying to understand the hype with Apple Pay. Is there some incentive to this over conventional credit card use? I never use cash if that helps and almost always pay by credit, but I'm trying to see the bigger picture I guess.

Maybe everyone's just excited because this is something new. Perhaps the hype will die down after the "newness" wears off.

/Rant over.

The problem is actually apple created because apple does silly things to push there apps while not giving other apps fair chance at competition on the ios platform. The problem is very simple, apple stupidly locked the NFC to apple pay only! That means app developers and other merchant apps can not fairly compete on the iOS platform. Apple is actually holding back talented developers from using NFC for revolutionary apps.

Apple is a hype machine. Usually over promising and under deliving whing hyping thing big. Its not that noone cared about Google wallet. It's actually amazing. Google just never hypes anything. Google also never locked the NFC!

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How is it vulnerable "either way"? Google wallet has no tokenization, no secure element, no biometrics. Google wallet is just sending your CC number over NFC unsecured.

You would have to be completely unfamiliar with either one system or both to equate their security. On the one hand its literally impossible to hack apple pay, on the other you have the very high likelihood that at some point Google Wallet WILL be hacked.


CurrentC is far worse than either system and provides none of the benefits.

As of lately google wallet has MasterCard doing the tokens. Try it. I did in San Francisco just now. Works like Apple pay. MasterCard also handles the token for apple pay as well. When u pay the merchant get a random one time "credit card number". U can see it in ur gmail acct once u have completed the transaction.

 

[darngooddesign]

...Why is everyone getting so bent out of shape when their favorite retailers or even retailers they probably don't shop at in the first place are disabling NFC/Apple Pay?

http://www.mcx.com

If you look at the list of merchants you'll probably see a couple you do shop at.

The thing is that Their solution ties directly into your bank account. Considering these retailers can't keep hackers out, do you really want your back account accessed?

Its also a pain, take a photo of a QR code on the register's screen with your phone and show that code to the cashier... really???

 

[deeddawg]

The problem is very simple, apple stupidly locked the NFC to apple pay only! That means app developers and other merchant apps can not fairly compete on the iOS platform. Apple is actually holding back talented developers from using NFC for revolutionary apps.

Yep. Same as they did with TouchID. I expect it'll get opened up in the next hardware iOS release. Seems that Apple holds that stuff close for an interation, perhaps for some exclusivity, perhaps to work out any bugs/issue, but either way I'd expect it'll be opened up in time.

 

[Arran]

I love how no one is calling out the newbies supporting apple pay.

Its an amazing observation I've seen on this forum.

Anyone with a complaint and a new account gets treated like dirt.

Oh bent phone and a new account, must be a liar.

CVS is evil, and a new account, must be speaking the truth.

Not amazing at all.

We're mostly consumers here and we're looking after our OWN interests. And that's necessary because the MCX camp have made it quite clear they're only interested in looking after their interests.

In such a situation, balance, understanding and "reasonableness" go out the window!

No surprise. Definitely not amazing.

The "amazing" thing is that with years to prepare, the MCX camp didn't anticipate these events and had no communications plan in place. And after fumbling all that, they demand unfettered access to my checking account.

A bunch of comedians.

 

[rui no onna]

Thank you OP. The 2000 replies in the CVS thread had me rolling my eyes.

These people refuse to shop at a place that doesn't use a service that didn't exist a couple week ago. Oh how ever will they survive?

I think the thing that irks people most about CVS and Rite-Aid is it was working before and then they pulled the plug on NFC in favor of their data mining alternative which isn't even available yet. Disabling NFC didn't just stop ApplePay from working, it also affected Google Wallet and PayPass/payWave/ExpressPay enabled credit cards. That, to me, is an anti-consumer move.

 

[Rollo220]

Are you sure about the lack of tokenization and that CC info is in the phone with Google Wallet?



In fairness, I believe Google Wallet stored the credit card info on Google's servers not on the phone, and also uses tokenization generated from those servers. Not as clean as the Apple Pay implementation, but not completely unsecure either.

I didn't know that, that is better than had initially thought. Still, Apple pay does provide extra security with touchID.

 

[ElectronGuru]

Why have so many become NFC/Apple Pay snobs?

After reading through this thread it amazes me how people can become so dependent on a technology that (when it comes to Apple) is still in its infancy. Credit and debit cards have been around since before the majority of us were born and I can almost guarantee you that the thought of security was not this paramount before ApplePay was brought to the table.

I honestly don't care. If the release of Apple Pay makes people have negative thoughts about using other payment methods, that's on them.

Some seem to be thinking (and thank you for spelling it out so clearly) that everyone was fine with their cards and with the introduction of applePay, we are suddenly freaking out like they couldn't get the latest candy. Rest assured this is not the case.

It would be like if BMW released a new safety feature that made accidents dramatically more survivable and gm and ford got congress to block the sales of that model in the US to keep people from buying it. We were already living with the risks before the safer option came out but simply had to accept them.

Now we don't and someone else is activity trying to block its implementation for their own reasons. And make payments apparently less safe in the process. Unacceptable.

I am over in the US a lot and it's always amused me that I can just swipe my card at a self pay till and walk away with goods. i say amuse, it scares the hell out of me as well.

Exactly, it's like watching an operating scene on The Nick (think House MD but set 100 years ago). No gloves, no masks, no devices. How backwards is this??

BTW, in theory you could us a US CC and apple watch, but yeah, that's a more hoops not less.

 

[opfreak]

Not amazing at all.

We're mostly consumers here and we're looking after our OWN interests. And that's necessary because the MCX camp have made it quite clear they're only interested in looking after their interests.

In such a situation, balance, understanding and "reasonableness" go out the window!

No surprise. Definitely not amazing.

The "amazing" thing is that with years to prepare, the MCX camp didn't anticipate these events and had no communications plan in place. And after fumbling all that, they demand unfettered access to my checking account.

A bunch of comedians.

ummm. what are you responding too?

I made a very simple point, but I can distill it down more.

New macrumor members supporting apple are treated nicely. New macrumor members having problems with apple get treated like dirt.

 

[Newtons Apple]

ummm. what are you responding too?

I made a very simple point, but I can distill it down more.

New macrumor members supporting apple are treated nicely. New macrumor members having problems with apple get treated like dirt.

It is not just Apple Pay it is anything negative about Apple can set them off but you got to remember, this is the fiorum for Apple iPhones.

 

[Arran]

ummm. what are you responding too?

I made a very simple point, but I can distill it down more.

New macrumor members supporting apple are treated nicely. New macrumor members having problems with apple get treated like dirt.

No, it's okay - I understand your confusion.

I got off track and replied in relation the subject of the thread, whereas your comment was really more of general observation about society and the biased behavior of sub-groups within it, yes? It's a valid point, but you might want to try either the Community Discussion subform or the Site Feedback one.

And yeah, as Newton's Apple indicated; it's an pro Apple forum - so whaddya expect?

 

[ScottishDuck]

I'm seriously amazed at how the US doesn't use chip and pin cards, that's the norm in the UK (and the EU I believe).

If you guys used chip and pin cards there wouldn't be such a hype over this more secure payment method - (of course Apple pay is still more secure for online transactions)

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It was confirmed that iCloud wasn't hacked though.

Chip and Pin is actually fundamentally insecure. There's been a well documented flaw in the system for years now.

 

[AdonisSMU]

Because when Google did it no one cared.

Apple is the one company with the clout to make NFC payments take off in the US. People are upset over it because some retailers themselves have stepped in to try and cripple the technology as a result.

Did we really need to explain that to him. It should've been common sense. I refuse to believe people are that dense.

 

[AdonisSMU]

Apple is not doing any banking whatsoever. I think you have a woefully poor understanding of Apple Pay.

All Apple is doing is transmitting tokens. It's similar to a tokenized payment gateway like Authorize.net or Cybersource, neither of which are regulated as banks.

As far as security, the spec for Apple Pay is about all I need to know. If nothing else at all, it's an indisputable fact that what a merchant receives from Apple Pay is *not* your actual card number. That alone is enough to justify using it over a magnetic swipe. As far as the tokens Apple is storing, I think they have plenty of credibility. When is the last time you heard of an iTunes payment credential hack? Oh right, never.

I always love when people come in here on a high horse and try to claim some sort of moral high ground on something they have not adequately researched or understood.

These folks typically claim "support everything" or they "aren't a fan boy" or "it doesn't matter to them". They try to scold others when they just made comments that prove they are uneducated on the subject.

The truth is if they didn't care that much they wouldn't even bother. They'd go on about their lives.

 

[Knowimagination]

Some of us were looking forward to apple pay since its announcement, I have used wallet in the past and the fact that apple pay is taking the security to another level with the tokenization makes it great in my book.

The outrage over CVS/Riteaid is more aimed at the fact that apple pay can't begin to thrive now, because a doomed to fail vapor service that has no benefit to consumers is coming... eventually... If these retailers think that I am going to use an app with QR codes that ties directly to my bank account they have completely lost it. Also factor in the tracking issues and it makes it even more lopsided in favor of my supporting apple pay.

This isn't about apple as a company at all, if anyone had come up with a convenient and secure way to make mobile payments and retailers decided to block it for a less secure less convenient method people would be upset.

What I can't figure out is why everyone isn't upset? Why are we willing to settle for cards just because we can still use them. There was a time when checkbooks were good enough and people didn't want a debit card, but now since there is something better on the horizon I can't support it without becoming a snob? How does this make sense? Why are you not upset about retailers arbitrarily holding back things that benefit the consumer?

 

[AdonisSMU]

Nyt just reported that MCX members are contractually obligated to only accept CurrentC mobile payments.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/29/t...uns-afoul-of-a-rival.html?ref=technology&_r=0