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Visionaries LOL. Hardly.
Geoffrey Moore refers to them as "innovators," which essentially means they're open to trying new things and embracing new technologies.
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You underestimate Apple's ability to shape public thinking. The vast majority of consumers rationalize their decisions after the fact; they don't reason themselves into their purchases. Apple is acutely aware of this psychological nuance and leverages it to their advantage.

Apple's marketing has already convinced many here that it's good to have goggles strapped to your head at a child's birthday, selling us on bizarre features like cartoon animations on the front as "your eyes." It's absurd. People here equate this with a pager, phone, or tablet… IT'S STRAPPED TO YOUR FACE! They can't see how weird and creepy this device is to any normal person.

It's all part of the “Crossing the Chasm" concept. The MacRumors forum represents the visionaries and early adopters in the technology adoption lifecycle. Over time, as Apple refines its marketing and technology, we'll see broader adoption, moving beyond these initial groups.
I think most here would agree the cartoon eyes thing is weird. And most are not wearing this headset at birthday parties (not to mention it's just easier to record these videos on the iPhone).

The concept of getting the eyes is a good one but the execution is off. If at one point the glass is actually see through instead of just being cameras for the passthrough, then they will have achieved their end goal of making this more natural. Right now there is too big of a gap.
 
If you're comparing the AVP sub reddit specifically you're going to get a very niche group of vision pro fans who are passionate about the product. It's a different subset than if you are comparing the general apple reddit who have more mixed feelings on the device although a much larger group of people. I wrote a reasonable thread on the AVP sub reddit explaining what I liked and disliked about it but because it was slightly negative (with me explaining why I ultimately returned it because of the weight, comfort, convenience etc) I got downvoted.

Unfortunately the reddit format is conducive to echo chamber thinking, more specifically with the subreddits as they are fans of the device itself.

"Democracy" in it's pure form turns to poisonous "Tyranny of the mob" and provides no safeguards to minority views.

Sadly a lot of mods succumb to this, and also on this and other forums too, but particularly bad on reddit. I don't go there anymore, and havent in years. Kudos to those that have the patience to sift through that. Same with Slashdot and many other sites.
 
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I think most here would agree the cartoon eyes thing is weird. And most are not wearing this headset at birthday parties (not to mention it's just easier to record these videos on the iPhone).

The concept of getting the eyes is a good one but the execution is off. If at one point the glass is actually see through instead of just being cameras for the passthrough, then they will have achieved their end goal of making this more natural. Right now there is too big of a gap.

I like the eyes and the complaint most have about not seeing the eyes is weird to me. It's OBVIOUS why. If you see them super bright and clearly you'll see how fake they are inviting the uncanny valley problem into full view. By making the eyes dim but vaguely there, you get a less uncanny valley effect, and it feels more real connected. Obviously when an eyeball moves 5" out of place it's a bug and disconcerting, but that will be ironed out. And over time, the eyes may get 'brighter' when they can render the face eyes more realistically. In the mean time, it serves its purpose IMO.

Although I do like your idea. Why not just an internal camera casting a video stream of your eyes, and de-warped and stretched appropriately? No need to re-render a 3d avatar version that way? Maybe cost in getting such a low light camera to work?
 
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The first iPhone wasn't even 3G when every other phone was. Everyone jeered at the iPad when it came out, look how that turned out. People loved it. When it came out I had no interest in one at all though.

It took the Apple pencil to actually make me really want one. I then got a 12.9" iPad Pro. Turned out I couldn't do half the stuff on it I originally planned (hence my 1 TB storage is still basically empty years later) due to pro software availability and other annoying stuff. Would I buy an iPad again? Not til the current one is old enough it's incapable of doing very basic stuff, and then I'd buy a base model or smaller/cheaper one, just for that basic stuff. But some people love their iPad pros and barely use laptops much anymore. Whereas I'll happily pay best part of £4.5k on a MacBook Pro. Do I want a VP? No use case. Will I want want in 10 years? Maybe. Depends.

Turns out not all tech suits everyone and their use case. Who knew.
 
I think most here would agree the cartoon eyes thing is weird. And most are not wearing this headset at birthday parties (not to mention it's just easier to record these videos on the iPhone).

The concept of getting the eyes is a good one but the execution is off. If at one point the glass is actually see through instead of just being cameras for the passthrough, then they will have achieved their end goal of making this more natural. Right now there is too big of a gap.
But it’s not about making AVP normal. Even in 25 years, I agree it would be weird to strap on a face computer the size of AVP and wear it to your kids party. But it’ll socially iterate. Maybe you’ll see the occasional person at the library or coffee shop wearing AVP. Then in a few generations when it’s smaller, you’ll see it in those places more often. Maybe you’ll wear one at work or on the train. Then, someday, it won’t be weird to wear the 5th or 10th generation AR device at your kids birthday party.
 
I'm one of them. My concern isn't about wanting Apple to fail; it's about the negative impact of such technology on real-life interactions. AVP represents a Wall-E future where we're extremely isolated by our devices.

I recognize that Apple has the capability to make this product a success. Trouble is, success here is akin to that of an opium den. I understand that this technological shift might be inevitable, I can't help but feel a sense of loss for the simplicity of experiencing the world directly, without a digital intermediary.

My take is, tech companies must always be Crossing the Chasm, and where there is technological innovation there just needs to be the marketing prowess to sell it to the masses.

Everything about AVP is simply gross, the dad looking at his children’s birthday is astonishingly dystopian. All dressed up and presented as something we should want. Apple is the greatest marketing company in history, I don’t think they’re going to lose.

So yeah, I’m rooting for it to fail, but I’m not delusional enough to think it actually will.


I understand your concern, but I’m not sure if the headset is anymore isolating than cell phones already are (and it may actually be less isolating, at least from the perspective of the user). I did the Vision Pro demo earlier today. In all honesty, the headset in passthrough mode doesn’t really take you, the user, out of the physical space at all. I wear glasses, and the headset didn’t really seem all that different from wearing glasses (other than lighting being a bit dimmer). You can still turn and look at people and even look them in the eyes.

Now, it’s hard to say what the impact on others around you might be, and Apple seems aware of potential issues (that’s why it has the screen on front that shows your Persona’s eyes, it also communicates state by clouding over the eyes if you’re in immersive mode and showing your Persona’s eyes through the immersive mode if you’re talking to someone). I’d suggest that, in the case of the child’s birthday scene, though, the dad wearing a Vision Pro headset probably takes him out of the experience less than using a phone to record a video (at the very least, your hands are free to be able to interact with the scene). I tend to think that the bulk and the short battery life probably offset the compulsive use of it to some degree, but I also think that it’s probably no worse (and maybe somewhat better) than cell phones already are, in terms of isolating people. But the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and I suppose that 1) I’d need to use the headset outside of a controlled environment and 2) I’d need to see other people using it outside of a controlled environment, to be able to really tell how isolating it might be.

As for the immersion features, 3D video was pretty cool (and the fact that it worked for me was really cool, given that my strabismus means 3D stuff often doesn’t work well for me), but it’s not something I’d be super into. The spatial screen placement is something I find cool, though. And I’ve seen someone point out the idea that you could use the Vision Pro to filter out, say, a visually noisy office environment (a la the AirPods Max’s noise canceling feature but for your eyesight). Having worked from an office that overlooked Times Square (and how useful noise canceling headphones proved to be in that same office), I could see the value. (Notionally, the open office plan and lack of assigned seats were intended to help facilitate collaboration, but I was on a team that didn’t really need to collaborate to a high degree and that didn’t typically co-seat. Besides, we had the same digital tools to collaborate that we did while working from home. So the extra noise was mostly just a distraction.)

TL;DR: I understand the concern about tech isolation (it’s one I share), but I also get the impression that it’s a concern Apple shares. The Vision Pro definitely seems designed in an attempt to minimize isolation relative to other headsets, and, at least from the user’s perspective, it seems to be far less isolating than cell phones are. I think you could walk around with it on and not really realize you’re looking at the world through a screen. (The battery life and weight also offset some of my concerns about isolation.) That said, with a VR headset, isolation is as much about what other people experience, and I can’t really say until people try to use headsets in public what my psychological reaction would be.
 
I think most here would agree the cartoon eyes thing is weird. And most are not wearing this headset at birthday parties (not to mention it's just easier to record these videos on the iPhone).

The concept of getting the eyes is a good one but the execution is off. If at one point the glass is actually see through instead of just being cameras for the passthrough, then they will have achieved their end goal of making this more natural. Right now there is too big of a gap.

I think the cartoon eyes at least are far better than how most VR headsets just have an opaque face. The Vision Pro even in person gives something of the illusion of transparency, and it’ll probably get better with subsequent software and hardware updates.
 
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I understand your concern, but I’m not sure if the headset is anymore isolating than cell phones already are (and it may actually be less isolating, at least from the perspective of the user). I did the Vision Pro demo earlier today. In all honesty, the headset in passthrough mode doesn’t really take you, the user, out of the physical space at all. I wear glasses, and the headset didn’t really seem all that different from wearing glasses (other than lighting being a bit dimmer). You can still turn and look at people and even look them in the eyes.

Now, it’s hard to say what the impact on others around you might be, and Apple seems aware of potential issues (that’s why it has the screen on front that shows your Persona’s eyes, it also communicates state by clouding over the eyes if you’re in immersive mode and showing your Persona’s eyes through the immersive mode if you’re talking to someone). I’d suggest that, in the case of the child’s birthday scene, though, the dad wearing a Vision Pro headset probably takes him out of the experience less than using a phone to record a video (at the very least, your hands are free to be able to interact with the scene). I tend to think that the bulk and the short battery life probably offset the compulsive use of it to some degree, but I also think that it’s probably no worse (and maybe somewhat better) than cell phones already are, in terms of isolating people. But the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and I suppose that 1) I’d need to use the headset outside of a controlled environment and 2) I’d need to see other people using it outside of a controlled environment, to be able to really tell how isolating it might be.

As for the immersion features, 3D video was pretty cool (and the fact that it worked for me was really cool, given that my strabismus means 3D stuff often doesn’t work well for me), but it’s not something I’d be super into. The spatial screen placement is something I find cool, though. And I’ve seen someone point out the idea that you could use the Vision Pro to filter out, say, a visually noisy office environment (a la the AirPods Max’s noise canceling feature but for your eyesight). Having worked from an office that overlooked Times Square (and how useful noise canceling headphones proved to be in that same office), I could see the value. (Notionally, the open office plan and lack of assigned seats were intended to help facilitate collaboration, but I was on a team that didn’t really need to collaborate to a high degree and that didn’t typically co-seat. Besides, we had the same digital tools to collaborate that we did while working from home. So the extra noise was mostly just a distraction.)

TL;DR: I understand the concern about tech isolation (it’s one I share), but I also get the impression that it’s a concern Apple shares. The Vision Pro definitely seems designed in an attempt to minimize isolation relative to other headsets, and, at least from the user’s perspective, it seems to be far less isolating than cell phones are. I think you could walk around with it on and not really realize you’re looking at the world through a screen. (The battery life and weight also offset some of my concerns about isolation.) That said, with a VR headset, isolation is as much about what other people experience, and I can’t really say until people try to use headsets in public what my psychological reaction would be.
If I’m looking at my phone, iPad or Mac screen, I can simply rest down the device or close the lid and have a conversation while actually looking someone in the eyes, or glance up and have a conversation. Think about it. One device covers the entire top half of my head and the others don’t. Has Apple, while redefining “VR” into “facial computing”, also redefined the meaning of the word “isolating”?
 
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I understand your concern, but I’m not sure if the headset is anymore isolating than cell phones already are (and it may actually be less isolating, at least from the perspective of the user). I did the Vision Pro demo earlier today. In all honesty, the headset in passthrough mode doesn’t really take you, the user, out of the physical space at all. I wear glasses, and the headset didn’t really seem all that different from wearing glasses (other than lighting being a bit dimmer). You can still turn and look at people and even look them in the eyes.

Now, it’s hard to say what the impact on others around you might be, and Apple seems aware of potential issues (that’s why it has the screen on front that shows your Persona’s eyes, it also communicates state by clouding over the eyes if you’re in immersive mode and showing your Persona’s eyes through the immersive mode if you’re talking to someone). I’d suggest that, in the case of the child’s birthday scene, though, the dad wearing a Vision Pro headset probably takes him out of the experience less than using a phone to record a video (at the very least, your hands are free to be able to interact with the scene). I tend to think that the bulk and the short battery life probably offset the compulsive use of it to some degree, but I also think that it’s probably no worse (and maybe somewhat better) than cell phones already are, in terms of isolating people. But the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and I suppose that 1) I’d need to use the headset outside of a controlled environment and 2) I’d need to see other people using it outside of a controlled environment, to be able to really tell how isolating it might be.

As for the immersion features, 3D video was pretty cool (and the fact that it worked for me was really cool, given that my strabismus means 3D stuff often doesn’t work well for me), but it’s not something I’d be super into. The spatial screen placement is something I find cool, though. And I’ve seen someone point out the idea that you could use the Vision Pro to filter out, say, a visually noisy office environment (a la the AirPods Max’s noise canceling feature but for your eyesight). Having worked from an office that overlooked Times Square (and how useful noise canceling headphones proved to be in that same office), I could see the value. (Notionally, the open office plan and lack of assigned seats were intended to help facilitate collaboration, but I was on a team that didn’t really need to collaborate to a high degree and that didn’t typically co-seat. Besides, we had the same digital tools to collaborate that we did while working from home. So the extra noise was mostly just a distraction.)

TL;DR: I understand the concern about tech isolation (it’s one I share), but I also get the impression that it’s a concern Apple shares. The Vision Pro definitely seems designed in an attempt to minimize isolation relative to other headsets, and, at least from the user’s perspective, it seems to be far less isolating than cell phones are. I think you could walk around with it on and not really realize you’re looking at the world through a screen. (The battery life and weight also offset some of my concerns about isolation.) That said, with a VR headset, isolation is as much about what other people experience, and I can’t really say until people try to use headsets in public what my psychological reaction would be.
I appreciate your detailed thoughts on the Vision Pro demo. However, I believe we're essentially saying similar things from different angles. My argument is that Apple's marketing is so effective that it can mask (sorry!) the inherent issues of covering your eyes with screens. The entire demo experience (and features like the fake eyeball animation) is a marketing strategy. It's designed to overcome the natural reluctance normal people have towards isolation.

You mention that Apple seems concerned about minimizing isolation. I'd argue that their primary focus is on moving product. They're using these demos and features to break through resistance and get people on board with the Vision Pro. By walking away impressed and defending the product, you're helping Apple cross the chasm from early adopters to a broader market.

As I said, it's a classic marketing tactic, and it seems to be working.
 
I appreciate your detailed thoughts on the Vision Pro demo. However, I believe we're essentially saying similar things from different angles. My argument is that Apple's marketing is so effective that it can mask (sorry!) the inherent issues of covering your eyes with screens. The entire demo experience (and features like the fake eyeball animation) is a marketing strategy. It's designed to overcome the natural reluctance normal people have towards isolation.

You mention that Apple seems concerned about minimizing isolation. I'd argue that their primary focus is on moving product. They're using these demos and features to break through resistance and get people on board with the Vision Pro. By walking away impressed and defending the product, you're helping Apple cross the chasm from early adopters to a broader market.

As I said, it's a classic marketing tactic, and it seems to be working.

I also kind of fear that the company is beholden to Wall Street and is just desperate to find the next business. Tim wanted AR, that's the story he wanted to tell, but the company could only give him a VR iOS device with the pass-thru and eyesight compromise, and Tim had to ship it. Just like he had to ship a bunch of services and iPad models. There just has to be a next thing.

I don't think he cares for people to buy this as a Mac/iPhone replacement, I think he'd rather it do a couple new things well for consumers and find a few enterprise uses so that millions of people buy it as just an additional device. It wouldn't help his bottom line for us to stop using everything else and start living in a dystopia 24/7
 
I appreciate your detailed thoughts on the Vision Pro demo. However, I believe we're essentially saying similar things from different angles. My argument is that Apple's marketing is so effective that it can mask (sorry!) the inherent issues of covering your eyes with screens. The entire demo experience (and features like the fake eyeball animation) is a marketing strategy. It's designed to overcome the natural reluctance normal people have towards isolation.

You mention that Apple seems concerned about minimizing isolation. I'd argue that their primary focus is on moving product. They're using these demos and features to break through resistance and get people on board with the Vision Pro. By walking away impressed and defending the product, you're helping Apple cross the chasm from early adopters to a broader market.

As I said, it's a classic marketing tactic, and it seems to be working.
Seems pretty cynical to conclude that Apple’s motive is purely to drive product. Is it possible that both yours and the posters perspectives are true? That is, Apple is trying to create a new product with real utility and revenue stream while also mitigating potential social isolation?
 
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Seems pretty cynical to conclude that Apple’s motive is purely to drive product. Is it possible that both yours and the posters perspectives are true? That is, Apple is trying to create a new product with real utility and revenue stream while also mitigating potential social isolation?
The medium is the message. Apple Vision Pro as a medium, inherently changes our engagement with the world.

It extends our visual and auditory senses into the digital realm, while creating a literal barrier between us and our physical environment; it is inherently isolating.

I should note that I'm on the right side of the adoption bell curve for this particular technology (a laggard), so my perspective is different from yours. As a result my arguments are probably not compelling to you. While I'm generally quick to embrace new technologies, AVP gives me the heebie-jeebies.
 
It extends our visual and auditory senses into the digital realm, while creating a literal barrier between us and our physical environment; it is inherently isolating.

A very minor barrier. We have 5 senses, this slightly limits one of them, sight. Headphones also create a literal barrier. Heck cloths are a literal barrier. I think people are over playing this isolation theme, wearing mine has not stopped my wife from talking to me when she wants to. But often we are just doing what we usually do, sitting quietly together while reading or watching TV. With the solo band it's trivial to take off if it's a long conversation, and whatever I am doing with it pauses. I dont have to find a button. I just slip it off. Talk. then slip it back on and resume whatever I was doing. Occasionally I screen share to the tv and she likes that. Again, trivial to do with simple eye tracking and gestures, I use this feature a lot more with my APV than my iPad for whatever reason.

In the end, APV's don't isolate people, people isolate people. It's just a device. We are the masters.
 
Freedom from real life human interactions?

You don't have this product nor have you used it around people. I interact with my family all the time while using the VP. There's really no change. At some times, it's irritating as I may be really in to a movie and get interrupted, LOL.

Here's a couple use cases illustrating the freedom I speak of:

- There are many times when I want to watch something other members of my household don't care about. Before the VP, we would separate in to different rooms to watch shows that interest us more. WIth the VP, I can watch what I want to watch while they watch what they want to watch - while in the same room, thus promoting interaction that wouldn't otherwise happen.

- I like to game using an Xbox. I can stream the display to my VP while another show plays on the TV. Again, allowing multiple people to use a room together where we would be in separate places otherwise.

- Was watching the Daytona 500 last night. I was watching and listening to the 500 from my VP WHILE gilling dinner. I could take it wherever I went without missing anything. A freedom I didn't have before. Funny thing - once I "projected" the race at the grill - outside, I could watch the race from inside the house without issue.

I've said before technology is what you make of it. You want it to be isolating, make it so. You want it to be a tool that allows interactions, make it so.
 
- I like to game using an Xbox. I can stream the display to my VP while another show plays on the TV. Again, allowing multiple people to use a room together where we would be in separate places otherwise.

how do you do this? I know how to mirror my screen to the Apple TV, but not stream to it.
 
Once again, we all should fully realize that a Vpro buyer doesn't have to live in the thing 24:7 or 16:7. In fact, they can't because the battery life is only up to 2.5 hours. A Vpro is not glued to a buyers head, nor permanently affixed, etc. Owner can decide when to put it on and take it off... such as when they are needing great focus to get something done or just need some "me time" entertainment vs. when they are in a social setting where it makes complete sense to remove Vpro, take off the headphone/buds, remove the sunglasses, put away iPhone/iPad/laptop, etc. All this other tech that tends to grab our complete attention for upwards of hours each day does not necessarily intrude upon our social experiences. Why? Because there is a time to use any such tech and a time to not use it. Owners of any such tech have no trouble of knowing when it makes sense to use it. Some of us seem to imagine that this particular thing almost forces us all to eventually be in "goggles" 16:7. Even iPhone doesn't completely hold anyone's attention 16:7.
Many people seem to think that just because you can see their eyes/face unobstructed or they don’t have something on their head that those people are actually present.…when they are in fact not present. Many people complaining about Vision Pro users using while driving are also on their phones while driving. How many times have people gotten together just to all be on their phones the whole time.

This is why when I’m with someone I’m not on my phone, iPad, computer or any other device. Pretending like you are present when you are not present in the moment with someone is kind of annoying. I prefer you finish what you are doing then put your device down and then focus on engaging with me. It’s okay to put the phone down, close the laptop or take the headset off. When I didn’t want to be bothered at a coffee shop I would literally put on over ear headphones and avoid eye contact. Now I can just use the Apple Vision Pro.
 
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When I didn’t want to be bothered at a coffee shop I would literally put on over ear headphones and avoid eye contact.

That is a common trick with those that fly, if you dont want the person in the seat next to you talking at you, just put in earbuds. Whether you are listening to music or not.

The AVP is just a device. It's only isolating if we use it in an isolating fashion. It's easy to take on and off with the single loop. Just like putting down a phone or iPad.

It used to annoy my business partner when we met at a restaurant for me to even glance at my Apple Watch. He was like, are you out of time already? No, I was just checking my notifications. So I learned to even stop that.
 
Seems pretty cynical to conclude that Apple’s motive is purely to drive product. Is it possible that both yours and the posters perspectives are true? That is, Apple is trying to create a new product with real utility and revenue stream while also mitigating potential social isolation?
I don't think that's cynical. I think it's optimistic to the point of naive to think Apple even truly believes in the utility. In fact it's pretty clear that Tim Cook is the one that decided that Vision Pro should be a shipping product, when most people inside Apple did not agree. They were screaming it from the mountain tops in the run up to the announcement. Ever hear something like that in relation to ANY other Apple product? Apple employees leaking to the press that they fought against releasing the upcoming product?

Vision Pro the product is dramatically different from its marketing which is unusual for Apple. But it has to be, because the product itself is not very good, and Apple is trying to push it. What we're seeing here is the peak of this ongoing social experiment of what can Apple convince people to buy and use. They overshot by a large margin here, and it's not working out so well.
 
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I'm one of them. My concern isn't about wanting Apple to fail; it's about the negative impact of such technology on real-life interactions. AVP represents a Wall-E future where we're extremely isolated by our devices.

I recognize that Apple has the capability to make this product a success. Trouble is, success here is akin to that of an opium den. I understand that this technological shift might be inevitable, I can't help but feel a sense of loss for the simplicity of experiencing the world directly, without a digital intermediary.

My take is, tech companies must always be Crossing the Chasm, and where there is technological innovation there just needs to be the marketing prowess to sell it to the masses.

Everything about AVP is simply gross, the dad looking at his children’s birthday is astonishingly dystopian. All dressed up and presented as something we should want. Apple is the greatest marketing company in history, I don’t think they’re going to lose.

So yeah, I’m rooting for it to fail, but I’m not delusional enough to think it actually will.
Hate to break it to you but that WALL-E dystopia is already here. The amount of people actually using their phones while driving is staggering.
 
I can't help but feel a sense of loss for the simplicity of experiencing the world directly, without a digital intermediary.

Ah, you mean like going to the movies? watching tv? sure I appreciate live shows as well, but is that really experiencing the world directly? Wait, no, you say, that's not what you mean. Just what DO you mean?

you are missing the point of the AVP. It's not just to experience the world, though I suppose it can do that. But it's also to experience the same digital world you are on your laptop or desktop. Except instead of a physical screen, you have screens you can position anywhere. Mail, reports, the internet. All positional screens. As many as you want (must be some practical limit but it's more than a handful.).

and when I want to go out for a walk, I simply take it off. Like turning off a computer or tv.

The AVP doesn't limit my experience of the world directly. If I wasn't using it, I would likely be using some other screen device (maybe not as effectively). This one just happens to give me a very transportable multiple window high resolution experience.
 
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