iPod touch Why the new iPod Touch will have GPS and 3G

[Stuart in Oz]

i have no idea about the different conenction methods of GPS so im just gonna nod my head *nods head* and agree with you.

i guess we will find out soon then

(thinks about costs)

Fair enough DoFoT9!

FYI though, the short, short version:

Regular GPS waits for the GPS sats to send the receiver all the position info about the location of every sat in the constellation (called The Almanac) before it can then use the timing signals to do all the tricky triangulation calculations. (You have to know where the timing signals are coming from to work out where you are, right?) The sats have very low transmission bandwidth so getting this info from the sats takes 3-5 minutes when you first switch on - hence the wait when you fire up a boating or hiking GPS unit.

A-GPS fetches the same info in seconds via the cell phone network. (The US Govt makes it available that way too). So the phone gets the crucial satellite positioning info in seconds and then only has to listen for the constant timing signals before going to work on the calculations. Bingo - position found in 10 seconds.

A-GPS also increases reliability in cities. Tall buildings make it harder to receive the signals from the satellites. The long Almanac transmission is the most likely to suffer interference as you move around. Get it via the cell network and all your phone has to listen out for are the timing signals - which are short and frequent and therefore easier to pick up, even in downtown NY.

 

[DoFoT9]

Fair enough DoFoT9!

FYI though,the short, short version:

Regular GPS waits for the GPS sats to send the receiver all the position info about the location of every sat in the constellation before it can then use the timing signals to do all the tricky triangulation calculations. (You have to know where the timing signals are coming from to work out where you are, right?) The sats have very low transmission bandwidth so getting this info from the sats takes 3-5 minutes when you first switch on - hence the wait when you fire up a boating or hiking GPS unit.

A-GPS fetches the same info in seconds via the cell phone network. (The US Govt makes it available that way too). So the phone gets the crucial satellite positioning info in seconds and then only has to listen for the constant timing signals before going to work on the calculations. Bingo - position found in 10 seconds.

eheh u called me by my first name

ok now thats pretty smart and cool.

so if i were to buy a GPS (a regular GPS), from say dick smith/tandy/harvey norman/ anywhere that GPS would take 3-5minutes to connect?? that seems a little bit long to connect id hate to be waiting every time i turned on my GPS.

im not aware of any of these A-GPS machines in australia, are you certain that they would implement it world wide?

 

[Stuart in Oz]

ok now thats pretty smart and cool.

so if i were to buy a GPS (a regular GPS), from say dick smith/tandy/harvey norman/ anywhere that GPS would take 3-5minutes to connect?? that seems a little bit long to connect id hate to be waiting every time i turned on my GPS.

That's pretty much the case. But see, it doesn't matter so much in those traditional applications because you tend to turn on the machine, let it get synced and then use it for a long time.

A yacht owner runs his/her GPS for days at a time when out at sea and couldn't care less that it took 3 minutes to get started way back when they first set off. A bushwalker is much the same - the unit is on continuously for the duration of an 8 hour walk and the walker just waits out the 3 minutes at the start of the day without too much fuss.

Ditto with car navigation. Ever wondered why a car unit takes 20 seconds to fire up, then makes you read the user warning and press a button to continue? Then navigate to the input menu, enter in the address you're going to and that's about the two-three minutes the unit needs to get the almanac.

But as soon as you put a GPS in a mobile phone you (by which I mean both the user and the app writers) want almost instant location services. All these new apps (Geotagging, travel guides, restaurant and coffee shop locations) are predicated on instant yet infrequent location finding. You want to know where the nearest coffee shop is NOW - not in 3 minutes time!

You could of course just leave the GPS unit working in the background all the time, ready to be called on instantly, but that would just kill the battery life. Estimates I've seen are that running GPS on an iPhone non-stop would reduce the battery life to a matter of an hour or two.

So A-GPS lets you have the almost-instant positioning whilst still letting the device power it's GPS services down between moments of usage to save battery.

im not aware of any of these A-GPS machines in australia, are you certain that they would implement it world wide?

Yes, it's global. As long as your phone has access to a local network for data, it can reach out to the appropriate global servers of GPS almanac data. (I believe that a lot of networks keep that data at each tower location for very quick response but it can also be gotten from global servers [I may need to check that bit]). Every iPhone 3G in the world uses A-GPS, so at least Telstra, Optus and Vodaphone in Australia have it implemented as they all sell and support the iPhone 3G.

Even if for some reason it can't, it can still fall back to the direct transmissions from the satellites - it just takes longer.

Wikipedia has all the gory details if you like...

 

[a456]

Currently mobile suppliers charge anything from £15 a month for mobile broadband for laptops. While bundles including a laptop range from £25-£35. See here: Carphone Warehouse

These laptops roughly match the price of the 16 GB (or the refurb price of the 32 GB). Now the difficulty for a 3G iPod Touch would be to find the sweet spot. I guess if the 16 GB touch was free on a £25 tariff and the 32 GB was £99 then compared to a 16 GB iPhone over 18 months the touch would be at least £189 cheaper in total - not insignificant especially for those that don't want or need the phone capabilities.

Of course we are unused to Apple dealing with such fine-grained money issues but Apple is in a whole new market and one of the leaders now - they therefore have to provide the consumer with a greater range of choices. I can therefore see this happening but am still doubtful that all of the kit will be shoved in the touch at the same time - the upgrade is likely to be more drawn out - but heh maybe Apple have the money and the optmisim now to be a bit more generous.

 

[yorkshire]

No chance of it happening. GPS at a push, 3g never. You want a phone, you buy the iPhone. That's what Apple wants you to do.

 

[goosnarrggh]

No chance of it happening. GPS at a push, 3g never. You want a phone, you buy the iPhone. That's what Apple wants you to do.

But the OP explicitly doesn't want a phone. The OP is simply proposing a method of getting pervasive wireless data in a world where there isn't always a WiFi hotspot available wherever you happen to be.

Would your opposition have been as strong if the OP had proposed using WiMax instead of 3G as the broadcast medium? In my eyes any technological differences are superficial in the big picture.

We've already seen spam in this forum about a competitor who has created a mobile internet/media device which is clearly not a phone, but which does have the ability to use 3G for data.

 

[Apple Ink]

The GPS seems like a very sound proposition! Besides... it'll be required in the Core Locations API (iPhone 2.75G can manage [AFAIK] with the WiFi and cell tower data). So many new apps use it.... and it doesnt require subscription based services (on the core service side)!

 

[ra noodle]

i may get dumped on after i say this.....but GPS has everything to do with surveillance...and while many of you will dump on me for saying it, the slow step by step manner which Apple is sliding in GPS to everything using these-apparently "cute and neat" and "awesome" Apple Apps crap all of that is to distract you from the real real and that is putting GPS surveillance ability into every Apple product and then most likely pairing that up with RFID's....you can all get p***** off at for saying it but the puzzle pieces are all falling into place just like how Leopard's security was deliberately screwed up so that certain other parties could use back doors to get into your computer.....i am the first to say i wish i was wrong but so far this is the direction Jobs is taking Mac and iPhone products.......

 

[franzmueller]

interesting reading so far ... I own a ipod Touch and love it and hope on next upgrades Apple includes a speaker and a cam , I don´t need a GPS since it´s useless where I live and a monthly data plan is for me a non issue since in such a case I´ll go for the iphone .

I would say , if Apple releases a 3G capable ipod Touch it would be rather a bigger size model ( type of tablet ) since a 3,5 screen is nice but not the best to spend several hours surfing in the web .

Have fun

Saludos

 

[ElBerserko]

i may get dumped on after i say this.....but GPS has everything to do with surveillance...and while many of you will dump on me for saying it, the slow step by step manner which Apple is sliding in GPS to everything using these-apparently "cute and neat" and "awesome" Apple Apps crap all of that is to distract you from the real real and that is putting GPS surveillance ability into every Apple product and then most likely pairing that up with RFID's....you can all get p***** off at for saying it but the puzzle pieces are all falling into place just like how Leopard's security was deliberately screwed up so that certain other parties could use back doors to get into your computer.....i am the first to say i wish i was wrong but so far this is the direction Jobs is taking Mac and iPhone products.......

Apple has GPS in one product, I don't see how that qualifies as "sliding GPS into everything". Also, Apple isn't the one making cute and neat apps, it is independent developers taking advantage of a very popular technology. GPS in cell phones is an industry standard. If Apple starts shipping desktop computers with GPS then you may have a point. I think you forgot to check your tin foil hat at the door.

 

[Stuart in Oz]

Apple has GPS in one product, I don't see how that qualifies as "sliding GPS into everything". Also, Apple isn't the one making cute and neat apps, it is independent developers taking advantage of a very popular technology. GPS in cell phones is an industry standard. If Apple starts shipping desktop computers with GPS then you may have a point. I think you forgot to check your tin foil hat at the door.

He is right about various governments wanting to track mobile phone locations. Post 9/11 the US Govt (through the FCC) mandated that all carriers in the US must be able to locate all phones on their networks down to a radius of 100 metres by 2006.

Whether this is the new world government preparing to ascend to global domination or a sensible measure that helps emergency services locate where a 911 call was made from more efficiently does indeed depend on whether you prefer your hats in tin foil or not!

 

[TuffLuffJimmy]

I can't believe a thread as dumb as this has received so many replies. Just a little hacking and the iPod touch could be a viable iPhone replacement (and much cheaper) so it will never happen.

 

[Apple Ink]

I can't believe a thread as dumb as this has received so many replies. Just a little hacking and the iPod touch could be a viable iPhone replacement (and much cheaper) so it will never happen.

Not if there's only and ONLY GPS!

As with my previous posts..... any sort of cellular data is NOT and I repeat NOT going to happen!

 

[archi17]

HELL NO! There is no way that there will be 3G on iPod touch. No, no, no. NO! It defies the laws of gravity. If you want 3G then there is a nice device that does that.. hmm what was it called? umm. oh! IPHONE! It is exactly like the ipod touch but with a phone! OMG No way you say? Yes way, it even has 3G built in for wireless internet on the go! OMG that is EPIC!

 

[4DThinker]

HELL NO! There is no way that there will be 3G on iPod touch. No, no, no. NO! It defies the laws of gravity. If you want 3G then there is a nice device that does that.. hmm what was it called? umm. oh! IPHONE!

Another one missing the point. It's about internet everywhere. Safari, Mail, Youtube, Stocks, Maps, Weather, Apps store, and iTunes all rely on a web connection for data. That's just the default apps that are on the Touch now. It's about the cloud. It's about how prevelant access to data beyond the device you're holding is becoming. You don't need to go anywhere near a phone to still benefit from ubiquitous connectivity.

Archos gets it. You've seen the new 5G haven't you?

If that doesn't make sense, then consider the Amazon Kindle. Always available access to Amazon's ebook store. It doesn't even have a monthy fee. It's the main reason they couldn't make them fast enough to meet demand, despite it not being the first or the prettiest ebook reader out there.

 

[DavidLeblond]

Another one missing the point. It's about internet everywhere. Safari, Mail, Youtube, Stocks, Maps, Weather, Apps store, and iTunes all rely on a web connection for data. That's just the default apps that are on the Touch now. It's about the cloud. It's about how prevelant access to data beyond the device you're holding is becoming. You don't need to go anywhere near a phone to still benefit from ubiquitous connectivity.

Archos gets it. You've seen the new 5G haven't you?

If that doesn't make sense, then consider the Amazon Kindle. Always available access to Amazon's ebook store. It doesn't even have a monthy fee. It's the main reason they couldn't make them fast enough to meet demand, despite it not being the first or the prettiest ebook reader out there.

I don't think YOU get it... an iPod Touch with a 3G chipset is an iPhone. Hardware wise there would be no difference. So what would be the point of having 2 separate products?

Plus the Archos requires you to have a service plan with a carrier. Apple has a similar device, it is called the iPhone.

 

[DoFoT9]

I don't think YOU get it... an iPod Touch with a 3G chipset is an iPhone. Hardware wise there would be no difference. So what would be the point of having 2 separate products?

Plus the Archos requires you to have a service plan with a carrier. Apple has a similar device, it is called the iPhone.

i agree, i think there should just be wireless 802.11g/n connectivity in it and that should be it!! (plus gps of somesort)

 

[Lesser Evets]

I seriously doubt 3G in the new iPT.

GPS - maybe.

MIC, CAMERA, SPEAKER/S - I really, really hope so.

If they have the mic, cam, speaks, and up the memory while bringing price down I am so in there. With bells on. Even if the price is the same, I'm there.

 

[madmaxmedia]

I seriously doubt 3G in the new iPT.

GPS - maybe.

MIC, CAMERA, SPEAKER/S - I really, really hope so.

If they have the mic, cam, speaks, and up the memory while bringing price down I am so in there. With bells on. Even if the price is the same, I'm there.

I think the price will have to come down, even with new bells and whistles. Or more storage capacity at the same price points- 16GB for $299, 32GB for $399.

The Nano will surely get capacity bumps, and not doing it for the Touch as well would result in wonky pricing between the lines (for example $199 for a 16GB Nano, but still $299 for a 8GB iPod Touch?)

 

[gkarris]

I think Apple may add GPS and drop the price a bit:

8 Gig w/ GPS: $249
16 Gig w/ GPS: $349
32 Gig w/ GPS: $449

They don't have to go too low - Apple doesn't have to...

Plus, they did add a major feature - GPS, plus new software (which old Touch users have to pay for).

When AT&T releases the no-comittment iPhone, you can get a "Data Plan Only" service from AT&T (like they offer on their other Smartphones)....

 

[26139]

Wow....

I'd love to argue but I've got to go. To use multi-quote, press the button to the right of the quote button on each post that you want to quote. Then press the quote button as you would normally.

That feature has somehow escaped me until now. I was copying and pasting a bunch when I wanted to multi-quote.

Awesome.

 

[tonyshucraft]

Well considering that this would only be for data, then I think that it would be acceptable to think that there would be something that would allow you to connect to a n edge/3g/ect based network. Especially since wouldn't normal GPS take more battery life? I mean if it takes tht long to search for something, then it is going to be taking battery away from everything while doing that? While something that could go faster would be more efficent in this case.

Also, it is not hard to imagine them getting things working for free with cellphone companies/whatever you want to call them. If it's free, it is because steve jobs and Apple know they have something else that they could use.

One thing they could offer is for anything bought from the app/itunes sotre under a tower ran by x company, would get so much of the revenue of that sale. Possibly more than they usually would get as an affiliate.

 

[Stuart in Oz]

I don't think YOU get it... an iPod Touch with a 3G chipset is an iPhone. Hardware wise there would be no difference. So what would be the point of having 2 separate products?

Sigh. No, an iPod Touch with a 3G chipset would not be an iPhone. Read the original post and the rest of the thread for elucidation.

Plus the Archos requires you to have a service plan with a carrier. Apple has a similar device, it is called the iPhone.

Again, read the earlier posts for possibilities about this.

I can't believe a thread as dumb as this has received so many replies. Just a little hacking and the iPod touch could be a viable iPhone replacement (and much cheaper) so it will never happen.

Well, not if it doesn't have a microphone or ring speaker or voice processing circuitry... And perhaps a thoughtful response to the points raised would be better than "a thread as dumb as this".

Also, it is not hard to imagine them getting things working for free with cellphone companies/whatever you want to call them. If it's free, it is because steve jobs and Apple know they have something else that they could use.

One thing they could offer is for anything bought from the app/itunes store under a tower ran by x company, would get so much of the revenue of that sale. Possibly more than they usually would get as an affiliate.

That's an interesting idea! I've got no idea if it would ever work but kudos for lateral thinking!

 

[Stuart in Oz]

I seriously doubt 3G in the new iPT.

GPS - maybe.

MIC, CAMERA, SPEAKER/S - I really, really hope so.

That's an interesting list. I think a mic and speaker are the least likely items to be added on.

A lot have people on this thread have said that the Touch will never get 3G because it could be easily hacked into a cheapo iPhone, hence undercutting that product.

To my mind, assuming the Touch is a prime candidate for 3G for all the reasons previously outlined, then not building in a mic or speaker would be the crucial point - without those it's almost impossible to hack a 3G touch into a cheapo iPhone. If the hardware ain't there, it ain't there.

 

[iCantwait]

new sig