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rjohnstone

macrumors 68040
Dec 28, 2007
3,896
4,493
PHX, AZ.
What's up with everyone saying the iPhone will get to verison? What ever happend to t-mobil? What makes version so special?!
T-Mobile showed up to the FCC 3G frequency auction late and got some one off frequency that is only used here in the US by them.
Plus their 3G network coverage is mediocre at best.
So while their GSM frequencies are supported by the current iPhone, their 3G network is not.
But I think Apple would have an easier time adding support for T-Mobile's 3G network than they would getting it to work on Verizon's.
 

scaredpoet

macrumors 604
Apr 6, 2007
6,627
342
I think if Apple were to not form exclusivity agreements with any carrier, then they would have complete control and the carriers would be competing to make the iPhone on their network more appealing to consumers.

Actually, I think it would've made the iPhone more expensive, because it would have to support GSM/W-CDMA/CDMA200 EVDO, further adding to the phone's complexity. That, or we'd have a disparity among iPhone models; one batch that supports AT&T, another that supports Verizon.

Imagine the temper tantrums people would throw against Apple because they bought the Verizon version, aren't happy with Verizon and would have to buy a whole new iPhone to switch over, or vice versa?

And if Apple indeed ever does launch a Verizon EVDO version - and they would have to if they wanted to launch an iPhone on Verizon within the next 5 years, just to cover the gaps in LTE coverage - I would love to be there for the first time a Verizon iPhone user discovers that, LOL, the EVDO CDMA network doesn't support simultaneous voice and data. Wanna update or consult your Mobile Me or Exchange calendar while in the middle of a phone call? Works fine on AT&T 3G, but not on Verizon or Sprint. And if your phone happens to be checking an e-mail, loading a web page, or updating a push application when you get a call, the data session might get interrupted to let the call go through, or you might end up missing the call as it rolls directly to voicemail without your phone even ringing. What happens literally depends on where you are and what the network feels like doing that moment; there is no standard procedure for handling that situation on Verizon or Sprint.

As soon as one carrier started offering MMS, the other carriers would be scrambling to offer MMS (example).

Herein lies yet another problem. Verizon has a different way of handling MMS than AT&T does. So does Sprint. MMS isn't standardized even within the CDMA standard, let alone against GSM's implementation.

While I'm on the subject, let's also consider this: just because Verizon is going with LTE for their 4G nework, that still doesn't meant they will finally be compatible with AT&T or other GSM operators' implementation of LTE. LTE is just an air interface; the network and routing components that drive the air interface can model the GSM MAP core network, the ANSI network that powers North American versions of CDMA, or it could even be something totally different. Note that CDMA networks can (and some do) operate using a smart card implementation and network mapping structure very similar to GSM, if the carrier chooses to run it that way. Verizon and Sprint simply chose not to go that route, for the sake of maintaing the network routing and mapping system they already had and were accustomed to.

Likewise, Verizon could choose once again to go with a SIM-less, fully CDMA compatible and GSM in compatible version of LTE. Meaning a 4G iPhone still might not be cross-network capable. It would be the cell phone equivalent of dropping an American into the East End of London with a bunch of Cockney blokes. They technically all speak "English," but the American still isn't gonna understand a word they say.

Both the consumers and Apple would win.

If the carriers in the US had all standardized on a 3G single framework, I could agree with you. But in the spirit of competition, they were allowed to choose their incompatible technologies. And I think that hampers choice more than any exclusivity agreement out there. It's all fine and good to talk about eliminating exclusivity agreements, but even the two dominant CDMA networks in the US have interoperability issues and can't agree on all standards. Here's an exercise: try buying a Palm Pre from Sprint, and getting it activated on a Verizon account. You may succeed in getting voice functions to work, but good luck getting data to function right. But it SHOULD work, since both networks are CDMA. Or so you'd think, anyway.

Apple is playing the hand it was dealt. It could develop a device that has all the radios necessary to work on all networks, but it would be expensive, and probably heaver and bulkier than it is, even with current RF technology. And some carriers still wouldn't allow it on their networks unless it was "blessed" by them as "safe." I find it ironic that critics here hold up Verizon as the Savior of Customer Choice, when by far they are the most restrictive carrier in the US. Even when "forced" to allow non-branded phones on their network, Verizon still hasn't done it. They pledged that "any app, any device" would be allowed on their network by the end of 2008. It's now mid-2009. We still haven't seen it.

So if building a completely "universal" iPhone is problematic, what's next? Well, you focus on one technology. And if you're going to focus on one technology, you might as well approach the carrier that fits, and ask "what will you give me for making this awesome phone available on your network?"

As someone who has tried all the major US networks (Sprint, Nextel, Verizon, T-Mobile, AT&T) I will say this much: if the iPhone ever does make it to Verizon, I'll be happy to stay on AT&T, thanks. I've been there, done that with Verizon, and the grass over there isn't so green. I switched to AT&T before the iPhone was even a possibility, and if Apple were to switch iPhone exclusivity to Verizon, then my next phone "upgrade" would, reluctantly, have to be a Blackberry on AT&T.
 

DaGreat01

macrumors 6502a
Jun 11, 2009
894
0
Atlanta, Georgia
I was just wondering, if the iPhone were on more than one carrier in the US, how would they do like carrier updates via iTunes with so many carriers?
 

redking31591

macrumors 6502
Jul 10, 2008
393
62
I agree completely. I feel RIM had to venture more into the CDMA market because they were losing customers to the iPhone in the GSM market which is one reason why they are releasing more Verizon-specific phones. But yeah they still do release most of their newer berries on GSM like the Bold and upcoming Onyx (and that new curve with the optical pad is barely an update from the 8300, its more of an entry level device).

With my comment about the optical pad curve I was just illustrating that RIM is experimenting with a new control method on a T-Mobile or GSM network. Yes the Storm was a new input method but economics drove to verizon. ATT had the iphone so the storm wouldn't have sold, tmobile didn't have a strong enough 3G network for an iphone competitor, and sprint was losing customers in droves. I think the iPhone will end up on tmobile before anything because tmobile is a forward thinking carrier when it comes to phones and the only reason they didn't get the iphone to begin with was probably network size.
 

Michael CM1

macrumors 603
Feb 4, 2008
5,681
276
Uh, dude....I think ALL providers have an "extra" $30/month plan for data, iPhone or no.

Everyone in the US, yep. But what I was going for is the number of people who would switch to or join AT&T and pay that $30/month could be dwindling a lot. There may be millions of Verizon BlackBerry users who love Verizon but want an iPhone. Same with T-Mobile and Sprint, not to mention smaller carriers.

I also think I was trying to get at the iPhone numbers could dramatically increase if lower-priced data options were offered. Take away the "unlimited" BS (since it isn't) and charge people based on a few levels of bandwidth quotas. Hell, the ISPs figured this out a long time ago based on speeds, so I don't get why cell companies haven't figured this out with wireless data. For someone who wants an iPhone for mobile e-mail and very limited "I need to find this out" uses, they don't need 5GB of data. But people who use video and audio streaming do need a lot more.
 

jmpage2

macrumors 68040
Sep 14, 2007
3,223
548
I was just wondering, if the iPhone were on more than one carrier in the US, how would they do like carrier updates via iTunes with so many carriers?

The SIM card would tell them what carrier you were on and they would load the appropriate network profile.

Might even be able to handle multiple installed profiles that are each bonded to a specific SIM card for those euros that love having 2 or 3 SIM cards depending on where in europe or asia they are that week.
 

Applejuiced

macrumors Westmere
Apr 16, 2008
40,672
6,533
At the iPhone hacks section.
Very informative post.
Thank you.


Actually, I think it would've made the iPhone more expensive, because it would have to support GSM/W-CDMA/CDMA200 EVDO, further adding to the phone's complexity. That, or we'd have a disparity among iPhone models; one batch that supports AT&T, another that supports Verizon.

Imagine the temper tantrums people would throw against Apple because they bought the Verizon version, aren't happy with Verizon and would have to buy a whole new iPhone to switch over, or vice versa?

And if Apple indeed ever does launch a Verizon EVDO version - and they would have to if they wanted to launch an iPhone on Verizon within the next 5 years, just to cover the gaps in LTE coverage - I would love to be there for the first time a Verizon iPhone user discovers that, LOL, the EVDO CDMA network doesn't support simultaneous voice and data. Wanna update or consult your Mobile Me or Exchange calendar while in the middle of a phone call? Works fine on AT&T 3G, but not on Verizon or Sprint. And if your phone happens to be checking an e-mail, loading a web page, or updating a push application when you get a call, the data session might get interrupted to let the call go through, or you might end up missing the call as it rolls directly to voicemail without your phone even ringing. What happens literally depends on where you are and what the network feels like doing that moment; there is no standard procedure for handling that situation on Verizon or Sprint.



Herein lies yet another problem. Verizon has a different way of handling MMS than AT&T does. So does Sprint. MMS isn't stnadardized even within the CDMA standard, let alone against GSM's implementation.

While I'm on the subject, let's also consider this: just because Verizon is going with LTE, that still doesn't meant they will finally be compatible with AT&T or other GSM operators' implementation of LTE. LTE is just an air interface; the network and routing components that drive the air interface can model the GSM MAP core network, the ANSI network that powers CDMA, or it could even be something totally different. Note that CDMA networks can (and some do) operate using a smart card implementation and network mapping structure very similar to GSM, if the carrier chooses to run it that way.

Likewise, Verizon could choose to go with a SIM-less, fully CDMA compatible and GSM in compatible version of LTE. Meaning a 4G iPhone still might not be cross-network capable.



If the carriers in the US had all standardized on a 3G single framework, I could agree with you. But in the spirit of competition, they were allowed to choose their incompatible technologies. And I think that hampers choice more than any exclusivity agreement out there. It's all fine and good to talk about eliminating exclusivity agreements, but even the two dominant CDMA networks in the US have interoperability issues and can't agree on all standards.

Apple is playing the hand it was dealt. It could develop a device that has all the radios necessary to work on all networks, but it would be expensive, and probably heaver and bulkier than it is, even with current RF technology. And some carriers still wouldn't allow it on their networks unless it was "blessed" by them as "safe." I find it ironic that critics here hold up Verizon as the Savior of Customer Choice, when by far they are the most restrictive carrier in the US. Even when "forced" to allow non-branded phones on their network, Verizon still hasn't done it. They pledged that "any app, any device" would be allowed on their network by the end of 2008. It's now mid-2009. We still haven't seen it.

So if building a completely "universal" iPhone is problematic, what's next? Well, you focus on one technology. And if you're going to focus on one technology, you might as well approach the carrier that fits, and ask "what will you give me for making this awesome phone available on your network?"

As someone who has tried all the major US networks (Sprint, Nextel, Verizon, T-Mobile, AT&T) I will say this much: if the iPhone ever does make it to Verizon, I'll be happy to stay on AT&T, thanks. I've been there, done that with Verizon, and the grass over there isn't so green. I switched to AT&T before the iPhone was even a possibility, and if Apple were to switch iPhone exclusivity to Verizon, then my next phone "upgrade" would, reluctantly, have to be a Blackberry on AT&T.
 

Nermal

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 7, 2002
20,595
3,935
New Zealand
For someone who wants an iPhone for mobile e-mail and very limited "I need to find this out" uses, they don't need 5GB of data. But people who use video and audio streaming do need a lot more.

Quite right. Both of the iPhone-compatible carriers here offer 10 MB "blocks" for ~US$0.60 with no monthly fee, which is great if you just need to use the connection occasionally. Of course, you can add a data plan, ranging up into the gigabytes. Most people seem happy enough with this arrangement :)

I will concede that fact, but I am curious how many people in NZ use CDMA vs. GSM phones. Which has a larger market?

I think it's roughly 40% CDMA, 30% GSM and 30% UMTS.
 

Applejuiced

macrumors Westmere
Apr 16, 2008
40,672
6,533
At the iPhone hacks section.
Its a good idea but people unlike talking on the phone thru minutes have no way of knowing for sure how many MB's they're using up.
So a few days of heavy internet surfing, youtube etc... would drive a huge bill with overages.
Im not sure how much extra they charge after your set amount of data but it could be a scary scituation. And here in the US they would all cry and complain about how they didnt know they used that much internet and dont want to pay etc...
And we know the iphone is a big bandwidth hog. :D

Quite right. Both of the iPhone-compatible carriers here offer 10 MB "blocks" for ~US$0.60 with no monthly fee, which is great if you just need to use the connection occasionally. Of course, you can add a data plan, ranging up into the gigabytes. Most people seem happy enough with this arrangement :)
 

DaGreat01

macrumors 6502a
Jun 11, 2009
894
0
Atlanta, Georgia
The SIM card would tell them what carrier you were on and they would load the appropriate network profile.

Might even be able to handle multiple installed profiles that are each bonded to a specific SIM card for those euros that love having 2 or 3 SIM cards depending on where in europe or asia they are that week.

Oh ok, thanks for the reply.
 

Nermal

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 7, 2002
20,595
3,935
New Zealand
Its a good idea but people unlike talking on the phone thru minutes have no way of knowing for sure how many MB's they're using up.

On my phone, I have a button on the front screen that shows my current usage (it's really just a web page link so you could easily add one to an iPhone too).
 

Applejuiced

macrumors Westmere
Apr 16, 2008
40,672
6,533
At the iPhone hacks section.
Thats a good thing to have if you have a set amount of data per month.
But they'll have to make it to be able to count the data on 3G and Edge and not on wifi right?

On my phone, I have a button on the front screen that shows my current usage (it's really just a web page link so you could easily add one to an iPhone too).
 

richmonddjs

macrumors member
Feb 13, 2009
57
0
Richmond, Va.
Yeah but look at how the storm has turned out. BTW i thought blackberry's were known for their keyboards? so wouldn't that make the Bold their flagship?

P.S. I went and looked at verizon's homepage the only mention of the "flagship" storm is in how their trying desperatly to sell them by giving customers $50 off of one.

Don't forget in late April early May it was buy one blackberry get one free. They cant give the storm away.
 

coolwater

macrumors 6502a
Jun 8, 2009
722
1
Verizon can die in a fire!!! They won't be getting the iPhone anytime soon. So people, shut it and be happy. Besides, even if they do switch to Verizon crap, there will still be people wishing it be back with AT&T (like me and many others) or instead why not someone else (T-Mobile). [Sorry Sprint is a dieing thing, so they don't count]

Also, did I mention Verizon can die in a fire? No, well VERIZON CAN DIE IN A FIRE!

As a consumer, I really don't understand this kind of mentality. It really boggles my mind. Why these people don't welcome or flat out refuse more competition?? Are they insane??

If you like AT&T, then just stay with AT&T. But, understand this: more competition = better deal for the consumer.

As for me, I want all 4 carriers to have iPhone and I want to see 'real' iPhone-killing smartphones. More the better. Then, the iPhone will be even better!
 

aristotle

macrumors 68000
Mar 13, 2007
1,768
5
Canada
World ≠ USA. There are more than two CDMA/EVDO carriers in the world.
From that list of carriers, the following have announced that they will be moving to LTE by 2010-2011. LTE is the 4G standard for GSM.
in the US:
Verizon Wireless
Metro PCS
In Canada:
Telus Mobility
Bell Mobility
In Asia:
KDDI
China Telecom/Unicom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Term_Evolution

As you can see, both current GSM providers like AT&T, Rogers/Fido and CDMA providers like Verizon, Telus and Bell will all be on LTE within a year or two.

CDMA phones will be obsolete within a two years.

The UMB standard has been abandoned as an upgrade path for CDMA providers in favour of the GSM based LTE standard.

In a nutshell, this means that all of those previously mentioned CDMA providers will be offered SIM based LTE phones in the near future which could include a 4G iPhone. But to suggest that the next iPhone would be exclusive to Verizon is ridiculous.

One final observation: The majority of those CDMA providers that are currently sticking with CDMA tend to not offer smart phones or their core customer base are WAP based phones used mainly for calls and texting.
 

The General

macrumors 601
Jul 7, 2006
4,825
1
If it's on Verizon (which it won't be) then I'll be switching to Android.

I don't want Verizon, I want AT&T.
 
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