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Why Windows users don't like to switch

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Originally posted by MorganX
Most of them are due to drivers. Micrfosoft could control that, but there would be bitching about that.

Microsoft had defaulted in the W98 beta to not allowing unsigned drivers. And it was very difficult to enable it. It didn't fly in the beta and it won't fly now. People would say MS is just trying to force developers to pay the WHQL fee.

IHVs are getting better at qualifying their drivers, but drivers and third party applications are still the primary cause of instability in windows and probably all other OS that aren't embedded and locked up.

edit: You also have motherboard manufacturers trying to tweak their systems for the competitive edge. MS partnering with Phoenix BIOS is great news.... to some.
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I agree. Whenever people start saying Apple should port OS X to run freely on x86 hardware I always bring this point up. OS X on x86 hardware probably wouldn't fair much better than XP or 2k on x86 hardware because there are just so maybe variables it's impossible to make an OS that will be stable on the millions of variations of hardware, drivers, and chipsets that are out there. Kind of a jack of all trades master of none situation.

I think if MS let Dell or someone make a custom version of windows that only worked on their machines and only allowed a small number of 3rd party companies to make hardware for it (varouis PCI cards, etc.,) then you could have a Win/x86 machine that could stand up to a Mac in terms of stability and hardware/software integration.


Lethal
 
I'm starting to see a pattern here.

Mac heads typically are much like the Lexus/Acura customers.

People who really want performance would get an exotic (Porsche/NSX/etc.) and leave it at that, where as car enthusiast (tweaker in the car world, and not a "ricer" either) understands how engines work and can get easily twice the performance of those cars at WELL over half the cost.

I did NOT want a cookie for that. I'm just saying that the Mac heads live in a world where everything is black and white--Mac's are the best machines, and ALL Wintel (or AMD user here) boxes are of inferior quality--the majority of responses have reflected that. However, a few users here, (a small % as always) are more clear headed than the zealots and understand where i'm coming from.

I mention the time frame and my registry entries and the tweaks b/c i got it done EASILY. Sure it is not as easy as Mac OS X (do nothing most of the time haha), but it shows it CAN be done for NOT as much trouble as most people show Windows Boxes to be.

Most people who have BSOD/usual wintel box "problems" have had shown little proof of understanding the hardware/OS relationship or even the diverse driver-hardware-OS relationship.

People usually associate wintel boxes as unstable from experiences with Compaq's or Emachines.

I suggest you actually try an Alienware box/Custom built (NOT mom and pop, which can actually be worse than even emachines) -- and you will undoubtedly notice a difference.

Most people that love the Mac are ironically CS majors (b/c they understand why it's so good), but again, the others who love the simplicity make the other large %.

But how many actually understand the hardware relationship? Not many.

How many know that using an underpowered PSU can cause instability problems ALONE? Do you understand why a weak PSU can cause instability? Most tweakers/enthusiasts do.

And how many Mac heads are tweakers (hardware)? An even smaller %.

revenuee: You definitely are a Mac troll :) Nonetheless, you make some good points. However, i want to clarify a few things. When i say i run a registry entry, that means the tweak is done once and only once. Think of it as part of the installation process--not as an "ongoing", i gotta tweak this today, i'll tweak that next week that wastes time. I have been very productive on my box (papers/powerpoint presentations/online hw assignments/adobe/etc.) b/c it hasn't crashed once. How does tweaking it once (over 9months ago) all of a sudden "reduce my productivity" as most Mac users like to talk about? What productivity am i losing?

In fact, i haven't tweaked ANYTHING after my installation of XP. Updated drivers? If you do not keep an backup of updated drivers, than even on a Mac your asking for trouble--unless they don't update drivers for a Mac (which is impossible as Mac's share a lot of the same hardware, just under a different OS).
 
It's easy to throw out the term Mac Zealot anytime someone points out their belief that macs are better. But I'm sorry, you have failed to prove your point with your car analogy. I see where you're coming from, and I completely understand your point.

The issue here is that, in keeping with your analogy, when I buy a car, I want to be able to drive it. I want it to run, and keep running, with very little maintenance. That's not to say I don't want to get the most out of my car, and that's not to say I don't know how the engine works, but why would I want a car that breaks down? Why would I buy a junker that takes me a few weeks to get it running, and needs to be put in the shop every now and then because the engine broke down or a part got recalled?

If, when the car *did* run, it was more powerful than the cars that didn't need that much work, then maybe I could see your point, because it would be a matter of pride, that the time I took was well spent in making my car purr.

But in this case, the car I have to fix will never run as smoothly as the other car, and the broken spring in the seat cushion is poking me in the ass.
 
well its just as easy to throw out the "stupid peecee user" or whatever lingo of the day Mac heads like to use nowadays (as i'm not a Mac head, i wouldn't know *_*) LOOK through the signatures of users on this forum--more than 50% have something about how their are suprerior to all, Peecees suck, or other similar vocabulary (and tone).

Mac heads continually zone out any arguments that XP is even slightly useful--which makes Mac heads that much more hypocritical and ignorant in their claims. Try not to close off the world to all of your "pro-Mac' information and you may find that it is actually quite different.

That is why i constantly say Mac zealot--tell me one that has not just completely ignored what I just said and just said or bottom-lined that i'm a PC user, and that "PC's suck", or winbloze. Please.

Then you may cast that "first stone" when you claim that I throw out the Mac Zealot term haphazardly whenever someone believes Macs are better.
 
Originally posted by Mav451
I'm starting to see a pattern here.

Mac heads typically are much like the Lexus/Acura customers.

People who really want performance would get an exotic (Porsche/NSX/etc.) and leave it at that, where as car enthusiast (tweaker in the car world, and not a "ricer" either) understands how engines work and can get easily twice the performance of those cars at WELL over half the cost.

I did NOT want a cookie for that. I'm just saying that the Mac heads live in a world where everything is black and white--Mac's are the best machines, and ALL Wintel (or AMD user here) boxes are of inferior quality--the majority of responses have reflected that. However, a few users here, (a small % as always) are more clear headed than the zealots and understand where i'm coming from.

I mention the time frame and my registry entries and the tweaks b/c i got it done EASILY. Sure it is not as easy as Mac OS X (do nothing most of the time haha), but it shows it CAN be done for NOT as much trouble as most people show Windows Boxes to be.

Most people who have BSOD/usual wintel box "problems" have had shown little proof of understanding the hardware/OS relationship or even the diverse driver-hardware-OS relationship.

People usually associate wintel boxes as unstable from experiences with Compaq's or Emachines.

I suggest you actually try an Alienware box/Custom built (NOT mom and pop, which can actually be worse than even emachines) -- and you will undoubtedly notice a difference.

Most people that love the Mac are ironically CS majors (b/c they understand why it's so good), but again, the others who love the simplicity make the other large %.

But how many actually understand the hardware relationship? Not many.

How many know that using an underpowered PSU can cause instability problems ALONE? Do you understand why a weak PSU can cause instability? Most tweakers/enthusiasts do.

And how many Mac heads are tweakers (hardware)? An even smaller %.

revenuee: You definitely are a Mac troll :) Nonetheless, you make some good points. However, i want to clarify a few things. When i say i run a registry entry, that means the tweak is done once and only once. Think of it as part of the installation process--not as an "ongoing", i gotta tweak this today, i'll tweak that next week that wastes time. I have been very productive on my box (papers/powerpoint presentations/online hw assignments/adobe/etc.) b/c it hasn't crashed once. How does tweaking it once (over 9months ago) all of a sudden "reduce my productivity" as most Mac users like to talk about? What productivity am i losing?

In fact, i haven't tweaked ANYTHING after my installation of XP. Updated drivers? If you do not keep an backup of updated drivers, than even on a Mac your asking for trouble--unless they don't update drivers for a Mac (which is impossible as Mac's share a lot of the same hardware, just under a different OS).
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I don't think that anyone would deny that if you were going for the fastest hardware at the lowest price you would build your own rig (or to continue your analogy add performance mods to your car). But comparing and out of the box product to one that has been custom made/moddified isn't an accurate comparison. If you are going to compare an off the shelf Mac to a PC then the PC should be off the shelf as well (Dell, HP, Gateway, etc.,.). If you want to use custom PCs as your example then hit a Mac moding site and compare customs to customs. I custom build my PCs and sometimes when talking about computers it's hard for me to remember that I'm in a minority and what's true/easy for me isn't true/easy for probably 99% of computer users. You got those tweaks done easily, but try explaining it to a typical end user and see how well they handle it. Will they get it done in 1.5hrs? If you are a tweaker

And, as I stated in a previou post, I understand that not all issues w/Win/x86 boxes are Windows centric but a bad stick of RAM or a weak PSU can happen to any computer and I don't see people w/OS X or Linux running into as many issues as Windows users do. If you read my last post you'll see a bit more what my thoughts on the matter are.

I don't think you give the Mac commity enough credit. Most Mac users are ex-PC users. They switched, and decided to stay w/the Mac platform for a reason. Are most PC users ex-Mac users?

That being said there are a lot of Mac zealots on this board that think Apple is the end all, be all computer company and, well, they should just be just like the PC zealots.

If you want to game, are a tweaker/modder, work in 3D, need a render farm, or are on a super tight budget I think you might be better off on a PC. If you work in print/photography/graphic design, audio, or video/film I think you would be better off on a Mac. For typical business usage I can't really comment because that's not my field so I don't know what the average user needs. For a typical home computer either platform will do but I think the Mac is the better choice (the biggest reason I say this is because of all the Apple software that comes standard w/every Mac). I'm sure there are dozens of other niche users but I only listed the ones that came off the top of my head.


Lethal
 
Haha, after reading your post, AGAIN you perpetuate common Mac-side misconceptions:

*PCs are unreliable and need constant maintenance*.

9 months. No maintenance. Got school work from engineering major from freshman-sophmore college year--ALL done with this PC not affecting my productivity AT ALL (more like my professors bad lectures affecting my productivity :) )

Mac heads can't stop talking about their productivity--well show me where i have lost mine. Actually i just answered my own question--games, that's where i lose all of mine. Too many games for the PC...which means that many more ways to screw up your productivity.

"junkers"
How are "peecees" of lesser quality? Compare an eMac (which is the closest in price to PCs, but not even close in raw performance) to the quality of a high performance PC (run from 999 to mid 1500's nowadagys). Custom built have even HIGHER performance/value than the mainstream ones for that much less.
 
Lethal- thank you for a well thought post. It is one in a million in a place like this and helps shines some true, knowledgable thinking on the matter.
 
This is not difficult to answer.

1. It's easier to buy a Windows box.

2. It's cheaper to buy a Windows box.

3. They're used to buying a Windows box.

4. As convoluted as Windows is - they're used to it. Macs are confusing after using Windows. Really, they are.

5. They don't understand that it's not such a switch as it's perceived to be. Before I switched, Macs seemd like another planet.

The folks that might switch fall into (in my view - I have no empirical data to back up my statements) two categories:

a) folks who are buying their first computer

b) folks who are buying a computer who are not in love with their computer but want to spend the money on a mid-range computer, not low-end. These buyers also do research on their purchases.
 
Um, I don't think that I've completely ignored what you've said at all. And I certainly don't think that XP is completely useless. If it was completely useless, 95% of the world wouldn't be able to get anything done. I think if anything you're the one being a "PC Head" and not listening to all of the arguments.

Granted, some of them are biased, but what do you expect? You're at an Apple enthusiasts website! You can't possibly tell me that if you were to go to a PC forum that you wouldn't find as many "PC Zealots". In addition, when we make up only about 5% of the market, maybe sometimes we need to go a little overboard to counter all of the criticism coming from the other 95%.

Are OS X and XP both operating systems that work?
Yes.

Can they both handle the basic tasks that I need them to handle?
Yes.

Are users of either necessarily smarter than users of the other?
No.

Is my preference OS X?
Absolutely. If I, and the other members of this site, didn't prefer OS X, we'd be at PCRumors.com right now.

You talk about not closing off the world to all of our "pro-Mac" information...well what about how much of the world is anti-Mac? And not just that, uninformed-anti-mac. Sometimes it takes the mac zealots to convince the typical PC user that maybe there is something to an Apple.

In all of your posts, not once did you acknowledge that there are good points to OS X. All you've said is how awesome you are at making XP work, and that you can install it in 3 hours, as if it's a marvel that an OS can be installed in 3 hours.

Once again, this is a site designed FOR THE MAC USER. Of course you're going to find a larger number of mac enthusiasts here than you would at normal places. But how dare you come in saying that there's something wrong with that?

No one is forcing you to post here, there's no gun to your head. If you'd like to stay and have positive discussions, you're more than welcome to. But do not generalize and bring stereotypes, especially since there are the same types of people on both sides.
 
on your point about ex-pc users.

My friend who is ridiculously now pro-Mac came from a BSODing, compaq Windows 95, pentium 1 @ 200mhz box.

Not exactly an unbiased starting point hmm?
 
Why people don't switch.

As much as you would like to believe that ALL windows users are ignorant, stubborn people who can't see the light, you are wrong. You say people have just gotten used to windows, and while I feel that is partially acceptable, I can't help but think that there are people out there who just like Windows more than the Mac OS. It is all personal preference, and as much as you would like to believe that windows crashes all of the time, it is not half as bad as some of you make it out to be. Is is that big of a deal if not everyone is switching to a mac? Isn't that part of the Apple prestige: that it is not the status quo? If Apple gains 50% of the computer market, then sure Apple is doing great, but Apple will have then lost what so many people love about it.

Captain Underpants
 
Limelight-- you were the first to criticize and stereotype my post before anyone else.

2ndly, your bring your own sterotypes to this board--don't you DARE to criticize me of my supposed stereotypes when you make statements such as:

When I talk to Windows users, it never ceases to amaze me how often I hear, "Macs are for stupid people. Their OS is too easy to use." Trying to understand that logic makes my brain hurt.
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Is that going to start a positive discussion? Don't be a hypocrite by saying you want a positive discussion when you already contradicted yourself before the discussion even STARTED.

I did not acknowledge anything about OSX b/c i do not know anything about it. Unlike you, i tend to base my information on stuff that i have actually experienced, worked on, and tweaked/studied/took apart for more than just a few weeks.

Mac heads touch an XP computer for 10 or so minutes, than immediately start criticizing it's "fisher price" look when they have no idea there's a powerful theme program (StyleXP from TGsoft) that employs Microsofts VERY own Visual Styles format to create more pleasing themes.

Third--where did i say there was something wrong with using Macs? I said there's something wrong with perpetuating old Mac myths (that PC's are unreliable, need constant tweaking, etc. etc.)

Where in my posts do i say that it is bad to be a Mac user? I simply say that it is bad to believe the common myths, that is all. I don't care if you're a Mac user--i only care if you're a Mac user b/c you solely believed in the myths ALONE and didn't understand the situation completely.
 
You also keep writing "peecee" in quotes like that when no one else is calling them peecee's, just you.

Once again, I'm not saying that all Windows based machines are inferior. I'm not even saying that the price/performance is equal, although if you were to put everything that Apple puts in it's machines, and I mean everything, you'll notice that the prices aren't really all that far off, especially since when you build your own machine, you need to buy the OS which is also pretty expensive. (WinXP Pro is about $300)

Like I said, I'm not saying all of them suck, and with an experienced user, such as you, setting them up, obviously they can work nicely. But I also know a lot of friends with PC's, and I know how many times they need to find a driver for something, or there's an issue they can't figure out, and they end up needing to re-install the whole system, and go through a whole lot of hassle. It's not every single machine, but it's a significant amount of people. And like others have said, it's hard to compare a built machine to a pre=packaged one.

And every time you insult the things others here have posted, I think you're really not realizing that you're doing a similar thing, just the PC version. You've attacked me a few times but I'm honestly not coming from a hostile point of view. I'm just trying to give you another point of view as best as I can.
 
I don't see what was wrong with my statement about not understanding when people say that Mac users are stupid because the OS is too easy to use. That does make my brain hurt to try to understand that logic because it just doesn't make sense in my eyes. I never said PC users were stupid for using Windows, all I said was that I couldn't understand how you could call someone stupid for wanting to use an OS that's easy to use.

You say you're trying to stop the ancient mac myths...I'm sorry, but there are even more myths on the PC side about macs, don't you think?
 
Ok well one insult leads to another.

There was obviously fire before the discussion even began (you weren't the only one, I'll admit).

I'm even wondering if an unbiased discussion is even possible on a Mac board. It probably isn't...will it get close if a PC zealot goes overboard and bashes you in the head with it? Maybe :)

I'll agree that fighting fire with fire usually does not work to well...

PS: I write peecees b/c i posted here back in July (when i joined) and i began to learn that vocabulary from the users who responded to my posts--more than 50% of people who responded to my posts used it (believe it or not).
 
Most people who have BSOD/usual wintel box "problems" have had shown little proof of understanding the hardware/OS relationship or even the diverse driver-hardware-OS relationship...... How does tweaking it once (over 9months ago) all of a sudden "reduce my productivity" as most Mac users like to talk about? What productivity am i losing?

Because you are talking about YOU, and not THEM. As a user of both platforms longer than most, and in charge of 700+ machines and well over 1000 users, I can say, where most can't, that XP or 2000 or whatever iteration of Windows will most certainly impact your productivity; dramatically at that. If you had the oportunity to get data in larger anounts, you'd see the same result. In fact, this data is out there for those who choose to look for it. I'm talking REAL data, not anecdotal data. It's why I switched long ago, because, on the whole, life is too damn short to spend any time on tweaking. I've got work to do.
Interestingly enough, I am writing this on a Tablet PC. Don't even get me started on these $2,000 time-wasters!
 
Most Mac users are ex-PC users. They switched, and decided to stay w/the Mac platform for a reason.
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All I have to say is thank god I switched. There will never be any going back for me. Yes, I've built my own Windows box before. It's still running 3 1/2 years later but do you think I'm going to go back to it now? Heck no. This is the best decision I have ever made. I would guess the next best decision would be when I decide to get married.
 
Originally posted by Mav451
I'm even wondering if an unbiased discussion is even possible on a Mac board. It probably isn't...will it get close if a PC zealot goes overboard and bashes you in the head with it? Maybe :)
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I think an unbiased discussion is possible, but I think a lot of people have their defenses up because, as a minority in the computer world, a lot of us probably have to explain our motives for using a Mac almost constantly. I know that for me it's a pretty routine thing when I meet someone who sees that I use a mac and is instantly on a rant about how could I use a mac, macs suck (the same bias you came here to debunk, but on the other side of things). I also think that this accounts for why, when a mac user sees someone else using a mac, their inclined to introduce themselves. It's nice to meet a person who just understands why you use a mac, because they use it for the same reason.

This is probably even more escalated when you consider that this is a mac site, and in a way, it's a safe haven, because no one needs to explain their computer choice here, everyone understands why.

I'd also like to point out that I am not a typical zealot, and anything I said was from hands on experience, not from believing the myths. Maybe I've just had a bad experience, as some PC users have had a bad experience with Macs.
 
Mav451:

The fact that you're more wonderful than most of the world's PC builders just makes me so happy to find you here. I am just honoured to be in your presence.

It's true that there are a few good x86 boxes out there. I've spec-ed a few myself. However, if there's RAM which is not consistent with specifications, neither the motherboard nor Windows rejects it. Therefore, you get random re-booting, crashing, locking up. With Mac OS machines, the open firmware will not allow this sort of RAM to be used, increasing stability.

Microsoft constantly points fingers to the driver writers, and with good reason. Does Microsoft still allow dodgy drivers to run? Yes. If they force the drivers to a higher standard, their image would improve.

Microsoft spends 100 percent of their time doing 65 percent of the work. If they did the whole job, there wouldn't be any reason for Mac users to laugh at Windows and people wouldn't find security holes regularly.

I've used every operating system Microsoft has offered in the United States and another offered in Japan. WinXP is better than the rest, unless we include OS/2 and that was pure IBM design. (Compare OS/2 to IBM VM--you'll see what I mean.)

I could buy a WinXP machine, carefully spec-ed and get work done. However, it would cost just as much as a Mac OS X machine because of the level of components and extra software to keep it protected and stable.
 
I honestly cannot tell if you are using sarcasm in your first 2 sentences :confused:

Agreeably, M$ does have a lot of work to do: Heck, my ENCE200 (Civil Engineering and Programming-->> i have no idea why this is required as an intro course) professor makes sure he insults M$ in each of his lectures...and while they are funny, yes, they have truth in it--security is horrible on XP, which is why i am disabled DCOM on my box (DCOMbobulator). DCOM is how the viruses this summer have spread so easily (DCOM permamently closed shuts off the passage way completely for those viruses)
 
Mav, let me first begin by saying I'm insulted by your close-mindedness. I'm a Mac user and have been for approximately two months. It is my opinion that the Powerbook I'm on is more stable that any Windows machine I have used in the past. Do you want to call me a Mac head for that? I get annoyed when people stereotype me because I own a machine made by Apple. When people come to my room and look at the computer, the first thing they say is always "Oh, so you're a Mac user?" as if Mac is a deragatory term. I've come to the conclusion that the reason there is such a rift is because ignorant people, for whatever reason, feel the need to perpetuate the stereotype that Mac users think they're better than everyone.

I've used PCs before and I'll use them again. After all, PC or Mac, we're talking about machines, not lifestyles or ideologies. I come to these forums to discuss computers, not to be told by someone that I think I'm better than everyone because I own a Mac.
 
Oh so that's not a stereotype? Post a question or topic, something like, "PCs are better, Macs sucks" on this forum and tell me that the majority of the posts will not involve content that reflects a tone of superiority.

Secondly, when i say Mac heads, it doesn't mean just b/c you own an Apple product. My very own roommate uses BOTH an INTEL p4 system and a Pbook. I would not call him a Mac head at all.

You say your insulted? Then prove to me how "un"closeminded Mac users on this board are when you give a statement along the lines of "PCs are better". Watch for the diction and tone used in the following posts. Tell me those do not contain even a small amount of "as Mac users, we are better than all PC users".

Show me this--especially on this kind of board (Mac haven, as Lime called it :) ). Sensible crossplatform discussion is an EXTREME rarity these days.
 
Originally posted by Mav451
I did not acknowledge anything about OSX b/c i do not know anything about it. Unlike you, i tend to base my information on stuff that i have actually experienced, worked on, and tweaked/studied/took apart for more than just a few weeks.
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If you don't know anything about OS X why are you even here posting?? MACrumors.com, not letsdefendxpcauseiveworkedfor9monthsonitwithoutanyproblems.com :rolleyes:

Mac heads touch an XP computer for 10 or so minutes, than immediately start criticizing it's "fisher price" look when they have no idea there's a powerful theme program (StyleXP from TGsoft) that employs Microsofts VERY own Visual Styles format to create more pleasing themes.
Click to expand...

I've used win3,1, 95, 98, Me, NT, 2000 & XP and XP is ok but nowhere near as sexy as OS X.

The main reason I don't use windows is because it's a MICROSOFT product. I couldn't care less about PCs (peecees if you will) it's the company that made windows that I detest. I don't care how much cheaper a wintel box is, or that it can run 50,000,000 games or that every single one of my peripherals is wireless- I could not care less if you paid me.

Apple's OS & hardware appeal to the designer in me, so baring any of my machines suddenly exploding and killing me, I'd never switch back.
 
Of course if you make a thread called "PC's are better" you'll get a lot of dissent, thats common sense. These are Mac forums. Imagine doing the same thing on a hardcore PC board.
 
Originally posted by Mav451
\You say your insulted? Then prove to me how "un"closeminded Mac users on this board are when you give a statement along the lines of "PCs are better". Watch for the diction and tone used in the following posts. Tell me those do not contain even a small amount of "as Mac users, we are better than all PC users".
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If someone were to give a statement saying PCs are better, that statement itself would be close minded. And of course you're going to get an aggressive response if you say something like that! This is a Mac specific forum. Do you think that there wouldn't be just as aggressive a response if I went to a PC forum and said Macs are better? I'd like to see how civilized a discussion would come from that!

edit: sorry beefcake, looks like we posted in the same minute. great minds think alike, huh?
 
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