Will Apple ever make the iPad/Mac hybrid "Surface Book"?

[Freyqq]

If Apple made a convergence device like the Surface Book, they'd have to give iOS mouse/trackpad support. That seems like the one line they won't cross to keep iOS and OSX separate. It would require a substantial pivot in the differentiation between OS.

The closest thing to the Surface Book is buying a Macbook and an iPad mini, for about the same price and total weight.

 

[Freyqq]

I dont think the limitation is cpu/gpu grunt. I think the limiting factor is that when you add the full
myriad of photoshop menus and submenus--it becomes difficult to maintain the touch friendliness of the lite ios products. The experience might become more like using photoshop on windows--which is not that bad--but not as touch friendly as ios apps

Also, don't forget that this is a passively cooled chip. Even if it's amazingly fast for a passively cooled chip, with a very optimized OS to run it, there's just no way it will beat a Skylake i5 on 14 nm process with a 15watt chip cooled by a fan.

 

[Freyqq]

Everyone is talking about a hybrid.
There will be a hybrid.
Just not right now.

The ipad pro is the first step in macbooks being powered by arm instead of intel.
When apple makes more progress in designing even more powerful arm socs, they will replace the intels in the macbooks by their own design.

Second step is developping an mac os based on arm instead of x-86.

When they have accomplished these steps they will release a hybrid device.
a tablet which can dual boot to mac os or ios when a keyboard is attached.
When no keyboard is attached you will only be allowed to boot to ios.

The hardest part of that theory is merging the iOS and OSX, one with a user-facing file system and one without. The only easy solution is to use the OSX interface when in laptop-mode, but hide the file system. The other option is to have spotlight search for all Pages (for example) files and automatically symbolically link them each to the app for when in tablet mode.

 

[Piggie]

You could, but then it would be no different than a Surface.

Well, other than one is running Windows 10 and the other could be running a touch friendly OSX
If you don't regard that as any difference then a PC is the same as a Mac

Other than forgetting a Mac is only a medium spec PC, but locked down to only run OSX as opposed to be open to run any OS you wish.

 

[Piggie]

Tim Cook has stated that a tablet running OS X will not happen, but I'm not counting it out. It's up to Microsoft to force Apple's hands in making a "hybrid" tablet. OS X & iOS do have similarities even more when it comes to iOS 9 & El Capitan. Macs to my knowledge is the only products that can dual boot OS X and Windows. Dual booting OS X and iOS on a 12.9" tablet would be a game changer.

Well all know from history, and you only have to look back over the years.
Apple rubbish anything they don't have to offer, and that's not unusual, you expect any company to play down anything it can't offer customers.
Of course, they then change tack, DO offer it, then they make a big song and dance about it, and everyone says how wonderful it is.
At the same time also rubbishing something new they don't yet offer.
It's a continual cycle.
Tim and his tubby boys are not exactly going to say anything else are they?

 

[sracer]

Well, other than one is running Windows 10 and the other could be running a touch friendly OSX
If you don't regard that as any difference then a PC is the same as a Mac

Other than forgetting a Mac is only a medium spec PC, but locked down to only run OSX as opposed to be open to run any OS you wish.

My point is that a touch friendly version of OSX will offer no better a user experience than Windows does. There is nothing inherent in OSX that will result in a better outcome for touch operation than Windows. iOS is not a dumbed-down version of OSX. It is specifically designed for touch.

There's more to making a touch-optimized operating system than simply taking a desktop OS and magnifying the UI elements to provide larger targets for fingers to touch.

 

[Poochi]

Just add file system access and mouse cursor support if enabled by the software. Problem solved. Don't really need full OSX. Just need the UI enabled for developers to offer desktop like experience.

 

[engineerben]

My point is that a touch friendly version of OSX will offer no better a user experience than Windows does. There is nothing inherent in OSX that will result in a better outcome for touch operation than Windows. iOS is not a dumbed-down version of OSX. It is specifically designed for touch.

There's more to making a touch-optimized operating system than simply taking a desktop OS and magnifying the UI elements to provide larger targets for fingers to touch.

Well said, sracer. Under the hood, both OS X and IOS are BSD Unix, with all the file systemy and device driverish things that entails. If, and it's a big 'if', Apple ever delivers something like a convertible iPad/Mac, I doubt it will follow the Microsoft lead of adding touch features to OS X or, alternately, adding 'desktop' features to IOS. I rather suspect it'll be something the pundits didn't see coming. I've got a few ideas about how one might do this integration in a more 'Appley' way, but I'll spare the forum my half-baked concepts.

 

[Piggie]

My point is that a touch friendly version of OSX will offer no better a user experience than Windows does. There is nothing inherent in OSX that will result in a better outcome for touch operation than Windows. iOS is not a dumbed-down version of OSX. It is specifically designed for touch.

There's more to making a touch-optimized operating system than simply taking a desktop OS and magnifying the UI elements to provide larger targets for fingers to touch.

You don't think you could create touch friendly apps in OSX ?

I think you are 100% totally wrong. OSX and Windows are full/proper operating systems.
You could write/create ANY app you wanted and have it run under OSX or Windows.

 

[Dranix]

OSX and Windows are full/proper operating systems.

As is iOS…

 

[nj-morris]

As is iOS…

Ooh, prepare for the hate.

 

[Lesser Evets]

I think the reason Apple hasn't done this yet was to allow the iPad to have its own space in their market scheme. THEIR market scheme, not the greater market of all computers.

An excellent device for most everyone would be a Macbook (Pro) with a packaging like the new iPad Pro. Designers and artists and musicians (along with others) would jump at such a device, especially if a large HD was in there (512 soldered in) and it had fast connection to external drives.

That would leave the iPad line being nothing more than a computer for the "dumb folks" that couldn't handle OS X and need a simpler navigation format in the OS. It would cripple the iDevice sales, aside from the phone and iPods (which are not selling much, compared with their other devices). I suspect they hope to enlarge the iDevices, their hardware ability, over time and then break free from Intel when software suites switch over to iOS. Then Apple can have a Mac line-up which is rather small and for "Pro" users needing to cross over to Windows or have ultra-high processing power, while the consumer level goods are all iDevices which can do almost everything on Apple's closed off iOS platform which they can control, stabilize, and regulate in terms of available software.

We are just in a long transitionary period which should go to 2020 or even beyond.

 

[sracer]

You don't think you could create touch friendly apps in OSX ?

Ah, I never said that. Nor did I imply it. I've been saying that there are things within the OPERATING SYSTEM (not the apps) that are limiting/determining factor of success as a touch device.

I think you are 100% totally wrong. OSX and Windows are full/proper operating systems. You could write/create ANY app you wanted and have it run under OSX or Windows.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect it. From a purely technical perspective, you are correct. From a practical one, you are not.

 

[s2mikey]

Just add file system access and mouse cursor support if enabled by the software. Problem solved. Don't really need full OSX. Just need the UI enabled for developers to offer desktop like experience.

Yeah - that'd be a reasonable compromise. They dont need to have a full-OSX on a tablet, but some peripheral support would be just ducky

 

[sracer]

Yeah - that'd be a reasonable compromise. They dont need to have a full-OSX on a tablet, but some peripheral support would be just ducky

That is what I had hoped Apple would do with the iPad Pro. I agree that it is reasonable and would go a long way in advancing the iPad for more "pro" scenarios. I suspect that the iPad Pro 3 will offer those things.

 

[charlituna]

Any idea why this product has not yet been made and do you think we'll see it sometime in the future?

It hasn't been made because Tim cook doesn't see it as a good product. He's been very open that it's Mac OS for computers and iOS for phones/tablets and never the two shall meet while he's the boss.

now after he dies or retires in who knows how many years, perhaps. Depending on whoever takes over

 

[nj-morris]

It hasn't been made because Tim cook doesn't see it as a good product. He's been very open that it's Mac OS for computers and iOS for phones/tablets and never the two shall meet while he's the boss.

now after he dies or retires in who knows how many years, perhaps. Depending on whoever takes over

What we really need is for iOS and OS X to be equally functional, but to have different interfaces. Then, iPads can be treatex like reL computers.

 

[TechGod]

.

 

[TechGod]

I kinda feel as the iPad pro is that convertible everyone wanted from Apple.

 

[Piggie]

What we really need is for iOS and OS X to be equally functional, but to have different interfaces. Then, iPads can be treatex like reL computers.

But why does iOS even need to exist at all..... (in the future)?

OSX can be make to do everything iOS can do, it can operate in a full mode with a full UI for when it's running in, let's call it. computer mode.
The same OSX could easily put up a touch interface and close/hide aspects of itself and display a simple touch UI at any time.

The only reason for iOS to ever exist was due to the power needed to run it. If that power demand was never an issue there would never have been a need to create a simpler, stripped down OS in the 1st place.

I'm no iOS programmer, so perhaps we can ask those you are:
Is there anything iOS cannot do?
Could, people, if they wanted create full versions of the following apps?

Photoshop
AutoCAD
Maya
3DSMax

etc etc. And let's say you used the new stylus as the same as a mouse pointer.
Could iOS do it?

 

[TechGod]

But why does iOS even need to exist at all..... (in the future)?

OSX can be make to do everything iOS can do, it can operate in a full mode with a full UI for when it's running in, let's call it. computer mode.
The same OSX could easily put up a touch interface and close/hide aspects of itself and display a simple touch UI at any time.

The only reason for iOS to ever exist was due to the power needed to run it. If that power demand was never an issue there would never have been a need to create a simpler, stripped down OS in the 1st place.

I'm no iOS programmer, so perhaps we can ask those you are:
Is there anything iOS cannot do?
Could, people, if they wanted create full versions of the following apps?

Photoshop
AutoCAD
Maya
3DSMax

etc etc. And let's say you used the new stylus as the same as a mouse pointer.
Could iOS do it?

Exactly. iOS and OSX share the same base anyway and Apple can implement an adaptable UI like how Microsoft does it with Windows and eventually someone will be able to make x86 chipsets efficient enough to throw in phones anyway. I mean, just look at the Core M!

 

[Piggie]

I kinda feel as the iPad pro is that convertible everyone wanted from Apple.

Errrr No.
If you read these forums, the overwhelming majority of posters have talked about their disappointment.
Not in the hardware, but in the fact that, Apple have not made it any more PRO software wise.
They've just make a bigger iPad and given it a stylus.
That's not pro.

 

[TechGod]

Errrr No.
If you read these forums, the overwhelming majority of posters have talked about their disappointment.
Not in the hardware, but in the fact that, Apple have not made it any more PRO software wise.
They've just make a bigger iPad and given it a stylus.
That's not pro.

I never talked necessarily about the first generation. iOS 9 shows us that Apple has finally realised the iPad iOS needs to take full advantage of the screen size and in a few generations with new models and a new iOS, I think they'll get there. Of course, I still believe the Surface Pro will be the better choice just because Microsoft has far more experience than Apple with convertibles and sadly unlike Apple, they're not afraid to try new things.

 

[Krevnik]

But why does iOS even need to exist at all..... (in the future)?

OSX can be make to do everything iOS can do, it can operate in a full mode with a full UI for when it's running in, let's call it. computer mode.
The same OSX could easily put up a touch interface and close/hide aspects of itself and display a simple touch UI at any time.

The hurdle here, put simply, is apps. Every single app that you want to operate in both modes needs to have all the code to operate in both. At that point, you are basically writing an OS X / iOS app anyways. Win 10 tries this, but still puts the requirements on developers to have "adaptive UI" that can operate in all the different modes.

The only reason for iOS to ever exist was due to the power needed to run it. If that power demand was never an issue there would never have been a need to create a simpler, stripped down OS in the 1st place.

And screen size, and how AppKit was never really well-built for modern UI architecture, etc. etc. To be honest, UIKit is in some ways more modern than AppKit. It just doesn't have the same feature set as AppKit does.

I'm no iOS programmer, so perhaps we can ask those you are:
Is there anything iOS cannot do?
Could, people, if they wanted create full versions of the following apps?

Photoshop
AutoCAD
Maya
3DSMax

Here's the rub: the real hurdles here are many fold, but they aren't entirely due to Apple. The applications you list are large, legacy codebases. They are written with a particular way of piping events into the application, a particular way that the user interacts with them for discovery, accessibility, and workflow.

Is it possible to make an app that has the feature set of Photoshop, but runs on an iPad? Yes. Will it be as fast as your MBP? Doubt it. On paper, the A9X looks like it might give the Core M a run for its money, but we'll have to see. But it's hard to keep up performance-wise with a laptop or desktop when you have a battery 2-4x bigger, or no battery at all to deal with.

Will Adobe be the one to pay the cost to play on iOS as a full app? Who knows. It's a ton of work to port an application between two similar platforms, let alone two methods of interacting with the user that are drastically different. And that work needs to be backed up with an audience to pay for it. Which right now, doesn't seem to quite be there. Adobe's pricing model is an order of magnitude more expensive than most apps on the store. I see app developers get bashed for daring to ask 10-20$ as a one-time-fee. It's not a terribly inviting environment, unfortunately, even on iOS which is the most willing to pay.

I do work on an app that shares one codebase between Mac and iOS. It's totally possible. It is a lot easier for newer developers to do than older ones with an existing codebase they would have to repair, massage, and mangle in order to make it not assume you have a keyboard + mouse. And that cost basically makes anyone wary of going in unless there's a good reason to do so.

Now, where iOS starts to fall down is areas like:
- I can't write an app that manipulates hardware unless I use WiFi/Bluetooth/Lightning. So existing USB->Serial adapters are a no-go. This is a weird situation where if I'm a hardware vendor, I probably don't care, but if I'm a dev wanting to work with other people's hardware, it is a no-go.
- I can't write an app that accepts plugins (App Store / Security rule more than a technical problem). So that's going to hamper being able to create a community around my app like Photoshop has with its third party plugins.
- I can't write an app that violates Apple's other rules for the App Store (so no Popcorn Time).

But if I want to spend a few million dollars, multiple years, hire a bunch of people and write a Photoshop competitor, I can go to that.

etc etc. And let's say you used the new stylus as the same as a mouse pointer.
Could iOS do it?

I'm not entirely sure what you are saying here. What do you want the stylus to do that the pointer does? Accuracy? Tooltips via hovering? Unfortunately, from my own background as an engineer, I've found that "mouse pointer" is an overloaded term and doesn't tell me enough of what the user is expecting as it covers too many details.

And to be honest, I'm not 100% convinced bringing in a mouse pointer is the right answer if accuracy is the problem. It depends on the pain point to be honest. A lot of the complaints I hear which include details tend to tell me the touch experience for that workflow needs to be less bad, not that a mouse pointer is the solution.

 

[Dranix]

Errrr No.
If you read these forums, the overwhelming majority of posters have talked about their disappointment.
Not in the hardware, but in the fact that, Apple have not made it any more PRO software wise.
They've just make a bigger iPad and given it a stylus.
That's not pro.

Well "Pro"s around here are always not happy.