Will Apple ever make the iPad/Mac hybrid "Surface Book"?

[nj-morris]

But why does iOS even need to exist at all..... (in the future)?

OSX can be make to do everything iOS can do, it can operate in a full mode with a full UI for when it's running in, let's call it. computer mode.
The same OSX could easily put up a touch interface and close/hide aspects of itself and display a simple touch UI at any time.

The only reason for iOS to ever exist was due to the power needed to run it. If that power demand was never an issue there would never have been a need to create a simpler, stripped down OS in the 1st place.

I'm no iOS programmer, so perhaps we can ask those you are:
Is there anything iOS cannot do?
Could, people, if they wanted create full versions of the following apps?

Photoshop
AutoCAD
Maya
3DSMax

etc etc. And let's say you used the new stylus as the same as a mouse pointer.
Could iOS do it?

I get you. That's not really my point though. Yes, I do believe iOS has the potential to be as capable as OS X is. But that won't stop it from being iOS. The original idea behind iOS was that it was supposed to be a version of OS X built for the iPhone. And that's what I think it will end up being.
What I think will happen is that Apple will make one OS, but make a different version of it for each individual device. So the same functionality and capability on each device, but a different UI on each one.

 

[chasonstone]

For what it's worth, I have no idea if they'll make a "hybrid" device or not eventually, but I don't personally see them doing it in the near future. What I would assume would happen eventually is we have a device that is effectively our iPad and our computer together, but I don't think the Surface solution is really all that much of a solution. I think the key here is to grow iOS to a point where anything that can be done in OS X can be done on iOS with touch input. Then and only then could I see a tablet taking over my need for a computer. And even then, I wouldn't want a floppy keyboard case to carry around with my iPad. I would prefer to use the iPad as an iPad everywhere but my desk at home, or my desk at work. And then I would prefer a docking situation that would allow me to use a wireless keyboard for longer typing and "sit down" kind of work, and some form of touch input via a trackpad that is a better solution than slapping a cursor over a touch interface. I don't know exactly what that is, but I didn't know how texting on a touch screen could be better than a keyboard until I got the first iPhone. I think software is key here and right now I think it makes the most sense to focus on separate hardware for the software types until they're at a converging point feature wise.

 

[vladi]

OSX got neglected since iPhone launch and that came back to bite them. iOS in it's core exists to simplify every day task one at the time, that's really important to highlight, one at the time with fewer taps possible. On the other hand OSX is just another desktop OS based on principles of 20 years ago and there is only so much you can do not to piss off your MacBook users and in return get very few iOS people on board. They are stuck with OSX, they are refusing to make it touchscreen optimized because its a lot of work under the hood, from how OSX treats open windows to them being stuck with top menu bar completely unnecessary thing in 2015 and so on.

What concerns me more is how they stalled with iOS when it needs to do something more complicated. They have iPad Pro but they do not have iOS version to squeeze all of its potential benefits it could bring over regular pad. They are simply afraid they will loose people if they make if notch above dumb-proof that iOS is right now

 

[Piggie]

If we pop into fantasy land here for one moment

Say we lived in a world where mobile chipsets were exactly the same speed as desktop ones.

iPhone, iPad etc, all ran at exactly the same speed as the top end MacPro.
Who would ever create a new OS from scratch?
You would just use one single OS, and simply adapt the User Interface and means of in

OSX got neglected since iPhone launch and that came back to bite them. iOS in it's core exists to simplify every day task one at the time, that's really important to highlight, one at the time with fewer taps possible. On the other hand OSX is just another desktop OS based on principles of 20 years ago and there is only so much you can do not to piss off your MacBook users and in return get very few iOS people on board. They are stuck with OSX, they are refusing to make it touchscreen optimized because its a lot of work under the hood, from how OSX treats open windows to them being stuck with top menu bar completely unnecessary thing in 2015 and so on.

What concerns me more is how they stalled with iOS when it needs to do something more complicated. They have iPad Pro but they do not have iOS version to squeeze all of its potential benefits it could bring over regular pad. They are simply afraid they will loose people if they make if notch above dumb-proof that iOS is right now

Sorry, but are you talking about iOS and OSX or just the User Interface.
OSX is a full and complete Operating System, and of course could be programmed to run a front end UI that looked and functioned exactly the same, to the user as iOS.

The same way OSX could run code that made it look to the user like an Amiga, a C64, a Sinclair Spectrum.
Or a Space game, or a Spreadsheet.

Don't confuse the operating system with the User Interface you see displayed on the screen, or what happens when you press this or that button.

 

[Dranix]

There is no difference between iOS and OSX besides Cocoa vs CocoaTouch. They both use the same Darwin.

 

[chasonstone]

I get you. That's not really my point though. Yes, I do believe iOS has the potential to be as capable as OS X is. But that won't stop it from being iOS. The original idea behind iOS was that it was supposed to be a version of OS X built for the iPhone. And that's what I think it will end up being.
What I think will happen is that Apple will make one OS, but make a different version of it for each individual device. So the same functionality and capability on each device, but a different UI on each one.

This seems most likely/logical to me. Much like iOS acts different on a 4.7 inch screen and a 5.5 inch screen. You get that two-pane in landscape that you don't on the 4.7inch because it wouldn't be logical or feasible. But you can still accomplish all of the same end-goals. I could see one OS to rule all the screens, it just looks different or requires different input methods on different screen sizes. So we could have AppleOS where we can do anything on the smallest screen in the ecosystem that we could on the largest screen in the ecosystem, but different UI's to fit the screens, with the larger screens using keyboard/trackpad/mouse. This is a good idea, but it still begs the question on what the cutoff for keyboard/mouse input is? They've sort of already blurred this with the Retina MacBook (and 11inch air) being smaller than the iPad Pro. So then it comes to personal choice, where we have to ask ourselves if our personal uses at 12 inches skew more for a keyboard experience or a touch experience. So Apple is essentially telling us at this moment that 12.9 inches is where touch capabilities stop being as useful, and in the other direction 11 inches is where keyboard use starts to diminish in usefulness. I think they're thinking (hoping) we'll pick three mobile devices. So one person may go 4.7 inch, 7.9inch, 11/12/13inch, another 4.7inch, 9.7inch, 13inch, another 5.5inch / 12.9inch / 15inch. In other words I don't think Apple *wants* us to desire a hybrid, instead they want us to choose smaller touch interfaces and larger keyboard interfaces.

Maybe I'm overthinking it, haha. I just think that in the current state of things what Apple is doing works better for me personally than the Surface solution. I would rather have a tablet and a laptop, than a tablet that is kind of a laptop too. I've used friends touch-screen windows laptops before and what I found was I literally had no desire to use the touchscreen on them, not sure what that means, but it at the very least shows the keyboard input still beats touch input in certain use cases.

 

[rkuo]

My issue here is simple, I want to carry as few devices as possible. If the iPad Pro is going to be 12.9 inches on the diagonal, then I don't want to have to carry a macbook in my bag at the same time so that I can do real work. iOS and OS X are different, I get it. But that shouldn't make me have to carry two devices.

 

[Piggie]

Maybe I'm overthinking it, haha. I just think that in the current state of things what Apple is doing works better for me personally than the Surface solution. I would rather have a tablet and a laptop, than a tablet that is kind of a laptop too. I've used friends touch-screen windows laptops before and what I found was I literally had no desire to use the touchscreen on them, not sure what that means, but it at the very least shows the keyboard input still beats touch input in certain use cases.

You see this makes no sense at all

You would rather carry a Tablet AND a Laptop.
Why?
Are you getting mixed up with the physical side of it, vs the software side of it.

A Laptop IS a tablet with a keyboard section attached.
A Tablet IS a laptop with a keyboard section removed.

The Tablet section is a thin rectangle of hollo metal with a screen set into it.
The Keyboard section is, well, it's a keyboard.

Engineering wise, into the future there is no reason on earth why these two halves have to be permanently connected.

You should only need to carry both sections (not two devices) then it's up to you is you wish to connect them or not, and be in, let's say Tablet mode or Keyboard/laptop mode.

The only reason this has not happened in a BIG way in the past is down to engineering/technical limitations, which time will of course solve.

 

[chasonstone]

You see this makes no sense at all

You would rather carry a Tablet AND a Laptop.
Why?
Are you getting mixed up with the physical side of it, vs the software side of it.

A Laptop IS a tablet with a keyboard section attached.
A Tablet IS a laptop with a keyboard section removed.

The Tablet section is a thin rectangle of hollo metal with a screen set into it.
The Keyboard section is, well, it's a keyboard.

Engineering wise, into the future there is no reason on earth why these two halves have to be permanently connected.

You should only need to carry both sections (not two devices) then it's up to you is you wish to connect them or not, and be in, let's say Tablet mode or Keyboard/laptop mode.

The only reason this has not happened in a BIG way in the past is down to engineering/technical limitations, which time will of course solve.

I understand. But I think you're missing that I said "I just think that in the current state of things what Apple is doing works better for me personally than the Surface solution" I'm not saying if my MacBook screen detached and entered into a tablet mode there wouldn't be a benefit or appeal there, because there would be. But I think about a lot of situations I'm in pretty frequently where I use my iPad off to the side of my laptop for reference while writing a paper, as if it's a physical book or something. Or the fact my iPad and likely my future iPad are much more ergonomic than my 13 inch screen would be. I see the iPad pro and I think it could be really good at the things it does, but honestly it would be a bit much to hold in the ways I use my tablet. So yes, in the current state of things (Including where iOS/OSX software is, the fact I'm not impressed with Windows software all that much, and just generally how I've found to use my iPad and MacBook) I would rather have the two separate. So now I have iOS providing me a great tablet experience and OS X providing me a great desktop experience. I can use the two independently of one another, sometimes even in the same situation at the same time. I get it though, I do. Having one device to rule them all would be perfect, but I don't think anyone has really made an OS that is great at being a tablet and great at being a desktop.

 

[engineerben]

Y

A Laptop IS a tablet with a keyboard section attached.
A Tablet IS a laptop with a keyboard section removed.

The Tablet section is a thin rectangle of hollo metal with a screen set into it.
The Keyboard section is, well, it's a keyboard.

This is rather reductionist thinking. It's a bit like saying, "A pickup truck is a car with a flatbed." I can envision a mid-size car with a dock on the back so that you could attach a flatbed and - voila! - it becomes a pickup truck! And maybe it's a pretty good truck, after all, but there are always design compromises to make it work in "car mode" and "truck mode."

I don't want to carry a laptop and a tablet - I want to carry one or the other. If my travel plans don't call for a full-up notebook, then fine, I'll carry a tablet (or even a smartphone - an iPhone - and yes, I've given presentations by plugging my iPhone into a projector); if my computing needs are more intense (either I'm going to be running software that won't run on the tablet, or I need to connect into a system that a tablet won't support) I'll pack a laptop.

MS has done a good job of integrating a touch interface into Windows, but it's still a mouse-first interface. Developers are unmotivated to build touch-first versions of their apps because they are "good enough" as they are. iPads are touch-first from the start, and app developers have built a rich system around that paradigm.

So to the original question of whether Apple builds a hybrid: only if there's a compelling value proposition that isn't filled by their current offerings. Just building a laptop with a tear-off screen doesn't cut it. Apple doesn't necessarily follow every fad in computing: witness the netbook "revolution" of a few years ago: every computer company wanted to build a netbook with an underpowered processor and limited storage they could sell for under US$300. Not Apple.

 

[Piggie]

This is rather reductionist thinking. It's a bit like saying, "A pickup truck is a car with a flatbed." I can envision a mid-size car with a dock on the back so that you could attach a flatbed and - voila! - it becomes a pickup truck! And maybe it's a pretty good truck, after all, but there are always design compromises to make it work in "car mode" and "truck mode."

I don't want to carry a laptop and a tablet - I want to carry one or the other. If my travel plans don't call for a full-up notebook, then fine, I'll carry a tablet (or even a smartphone - an iPhone - and yes, I've given presentations by plugging my iPhone into a projector); if my computing needs are more intense (either I'm going to be running software that won't run on the tablet, or I need to connect into a system that a tablet won't support) I'll pack a laptop.

MS has done a good job of integrating a touch interface into Windows, but it's still a mouse-first interface. Developers are unmotivated to build touch-first versions of their apps because they are "good enough" as they are. iPads are touch-first from the start, and app developers have built a rich system around that paradigm.

So to the original question of whether Apple builds a hybrid: only if there's a compelling value proposition that isn't filled by their current offerings. Just building a laptop with a tear-off screen doesn't cut it. Apple doesn't necessarily follow every fad in computing: witness the netbook "revolution" of a few years ago: every computer company wanted to build a netbook with an underpowered processor and limited storage they could sell for under US$300. Not Apple.

So if the current MacBook Air's screen could be pulled away, and when it was pulled away it looked and functioned exactly the same as an iPad, you would say that was a bad product and would not want one?

 

[engineerben]

So if the current MacBook Air's screen could be pulled away, and when it was pulled away it looked and functioned exactly the same as an iPad, you would say that was a bad product and would not want one?

Let's explore that.

At what price? Same as a MBA?

Which apps does it run? OS X or IOS? Or both? For now, let's go with OS X, since that most closely matches what MS has done with the Surface line.

When running in tablet mode, how do the click targets change to become touch targets? My finger isn't as precise as a mouse, after all. Also, in tablet mode, how do I "hover" the pointer? This is important in some UI environments, but not possible in a tablet. On my MBP I have the dock set to auto-hide. Guess I can't do that in tablet mode, since there's no mouse to move to the bottom of the screen. And, actually, I prefer tablets with closer to a 4:3 aspect ratio so that they aren't overly elongated in portrait mode, but let's let that go for now.

Now, let's get to practicalities: have you seen the screen of an MBA? It's thin - really thin! I'd love a tablet this thin, regardless of whether it could dock with a base - so long as it had the battery life of a real iPad. I guess Apple could make the screen thicker to accommodate the full-up Intel Core CPU, RAM, storage and battery - but now it's no longer a MBA, it's...something else. And look at the SB docking connector - a complex arrangement of interconnections, mechanical interlocks and software. Now look at Apple's smart connector on the IPP - which do you suppose is less prone to failure? No, they don't do the same thing; yes, the MS solution extends the bus (I think it's PCI-E) to the base, but that's a lot of complexity. Apple would need to find some method that's more elegant than the SB solution.

So to directly answer your question: yes, I'd love an MBA with a tear-off screen - once I see and approve Apple's putative mouse-to-touch translation method, and so long as it's really an MBA, not a top-heavy semi-notebook, and so long as it comes in at a reasonable price not too much more expensive than the current MBA. And I'd like for it to run my favorite iPad apps, too - but that would require the app developers to port the apps to the new touch-OS X.

That's a heck of a needle to thread, but if they could do it, I'd be first in line!

 

[chasonstone]

So if the current MacBook Air's screen could be pulled away, and when it was pulled away it looked and functioned exactly the same as an iPad, you would say that was a bad product and would not want one?

What exactly do you mean? Say we have the same physical dimensions and general aesthetic of the current MBA. When it's attached to the keyboard it runs OSX in its current form? Then when you tear off the screen does it make OSX look like the iPad and the apps are still the OSX version when entered? Or is it completely separate? Do you tear off the screen and it forgets OSX and all your OSX apps exist and uses iOS in its current form with separately stored versions of apps? Where is everything stored? Does all the OSX stuff software and hardware. live in the keyboard half? And then separate chips and software for iOS living in the screen?

 

[ke-iron]

The logical answer is no. Apple will not make a hybrid because till this date there isn't any hybrid made by anyone that is either a better computer or tablet.

Apple will continue to make the best laptops they can make and the he best iPads they can make. No some mediocre hybrid that isn't better than either laptop or tablet.

 

[ctg7w6]

I think they will after it is pioneered by everyone else. Then they will do the same thing, claim to have revolutionized and indeed invented the concept.

 

[Piggie]

Apple will continue to make the best laptops they can make and the he best iPads they can make. No some mediocre hybrid that isn't better than either laptop or tablet.

Please stop using this term "The Best Laptops They Can Make"

The term "Best" is totally dependent on personal opinion and what you wish to do with something.
Apple make the laptops to the spec they wish for it.
They don't make it "BEST" at anything.

My Best is not your best, and your best is not Apple's Best, and Apple's best is not Microsoft Best.
It's just different specs and different targets you wish to aim the product at.

 

[kring]

Ipad pro is just another iPad same as the past 4 generations, It has a bigger screen but it's still crippled by a limited iOS not designed for anything more than simple apps. We'll see if anyone steps up next year and develops real powerful apps for a reasonable price and if the many iPad pro buyers who turn out to be disappointed can be heard by Apple to take iOS to the next level.

 

[ke-iron]

Please stop using this term "The Best Laptops They Can Make"

The term "Best" is totally dependent on personal opinion and what you wish to do with something.
Apple make the laptops to the spec they wish for it.
They don't make it "BEST" at anything.

My Best is not your best, and your best is not Apple's Best, and Apple's best is not Microsoft Best.
It's just different specs and different targets you wish to aim the product at.

You say they make products of different specs to aim at specific targets but they don't make it the best they can for that particular target?
So you really believe what you're saying?

How do you know they don't make it the best they can for that particular target? How do you know the current Apple Watch isn't the best they could've made it for the target audience? How do you know the to be iPad pro is not the best they could've made it for the target audience?

Of course what I think is best will not be what you think is best. But that's not what I am saying at all. I am saying Apple is currently making the best products or software for their target audience the way they know how to and the way we would like it, which is a combination of many things! Apple don't think of a product or upgrade and make it the same night. R&D takes months of development and testing, then mass producing. The end result is the best they could've made.

So I will refer back to my original statement and reiterate that Apple is making the best laptops and iPads they can make.

 

[ke-iron]

Ipad pro is just another iPad same as the past 4 generations, It has a bigger screen but it's still crippled by a limited iOS not designed for anything more than simple apps. We'll see if anyone steps up next year and develops real powerful apps for a reasonable price and if the many iPad pro buyers who turn out to be disappointed can be heard by Apple to take iOS to the next level.

How many years have iPads been out? How many years have tablets been out? Apple currently makes the best tablets to date. How many years people like you have been saying the same thing over and over again that with each new iPad it's just the same as the previous one? The sales numbers year after year speaks for it self! The iPad has powerful yet simple to use apps and if you don't like the iPad or the apps then use something you actually like so you don't sound so miserable and come here to trash talk Apple products.

 

[engineerben]

Ipad pro is just another iPad same as the past 4 generations, It has a bigger screen but it's still crippled by a limited iOS not designed for anything more than simple apps. We'll see if anyone steps up next year and develops real powerful apps for a reasonable price and if the many iPad pro buyers who turn out to be disappointed can be heard by Apple to take iOS to the next level.

Wow...okay, let me deconstruct a bit:

Crippled - I've never considered my iPad crippled. It does what it is meant to do. It doesn't run desktop apps, but that's not why I bought it. It doesn't wash my dishes, fix my car or cry at sad movies either, but it wasn't intended to do these things.

Limited IOS - All software is limited. So is OS X, so is Windows. They do what they're designed to do, and if they do it well, that's good. It's limited, I suppose, if it doesn't meet your expectations. The IPP clearly hasn't, at least in your case.

Real powerful apps ... reasonable price - I think there are lots of powerful apps for existing IOS devices at reasonable prices for existing IOS hardware, so I see no reason these same developers and host of new ones won't step up to the plate and create some cool stuff. But full-up Photoshop for US$10? I doubt it.

iPad pro buyers who turn out to be disappointed - Well, some, sure...there are people who are disappointed in a sunny day. But I suspect the majority of buyers will be pleased with their purchase. Since none have shipped at this writing, either way it's pure speculation.

Take IOS to the next level - guaranteed that they will. They did this year, and the year before that. Also guaranteed that some folks will think it wasn't enough, they went in the wrong direction, they should've made it more desktop-like (or less desktop-like). Happens every upgrade cycle.

My take? It's a welcome upgrade from the 9.7" screen, and I think the pencil will be the deciding factor. And if it's not a monster seller, then yes, Apple will make adjustments as you predict.

 

[kring]

i think the last two posters went about proving my point. The pro is nothing more than a larger iPad. Expect more and you will be disappointed.

Edit: and for the record, I have 5 iPads, 3 atv, and purchased 15 iPhones, and half dozen other iPods and apple accessories. I am not an apple hater. Sorry if I deflat some of the over-ultra-hype of the iPad pro. It's just an iPad, and yes it's the best iPad.

 

[engineerben]

i think the last two posters went about proving my point. The pro is nothing more than a larger iPad. Expect more and you will be disappointed.

Edit: and for the record, I have 5 iPads, 3 atv, and purchased 15 iPhones, and half dozen other iPods and apple accessories. I am not an apple hater. Sorry if I deflat some of the over-ultra-hype of the iPad pro. It's just an iPad, and yes it's the best iPad.

Hey, we agree!

The sheer size and pencil will open new use cases, but yes, it's just an iPad.

And the Surface Book is just a laptop. Expect more and you will be disappointed. A good one, though...

 

[Piggie]

You say they make products of different specs to aim at specific targets but they don't make it the best they can for that particular target?
So you really believe what you're saying?

How do you know they don't make it the best they can for that particular target? How do you know the current Apple Watch isn't the best they could've made it for the target audience? How do you know the to be iPad pro is not the best they could've made it for the target audience?

Of course what I think is best will not be what you think is best. But that's not what I am saying at all. I am saying Apple is currently making the best products or software for their target audience the way they know how to and the way we would like it, which is a combination of many things! Apple don't think of a product or upgrade and make it the same night. R&D takes months of development and testing, then mass producing. The end result is the best they could've made.

So I will refer back to my original statement and reiterate that Apple is making the best laptops and iPads they can make.

Sorry no, as there is no "Best"
You can take any product on the planet and say it's the best it can be given the overall package of requirements.
It's a totally artificial term.

So we have an iMac with a DVD Drive in the side, this is "Best" as it can play DVD's
Next year, we take the DVD Drive out, and it's the "Best" as we have now decided Best means no DVD Drive.
We fit graphics card A as it's cheaper and makes us more money, saving money was our definition of Best this year.
Now re realise it was underperforming to fit a better graphics card and it's the best now.

You can say any product is the best, as it totally depends on how you the creator see best.

Best could mean, best profit, best weight, best performance, best anything, their is no BEST point.

A Phone with a plastic back, that can deform, take shocks, and not dent could be better technically than aluminium so does that make that the best, or is the aluminium that looks nicer but damages easier the best?

No Flash in the iPad for the camera means it is a worse product than it would be with a flash unit, so it's not the best then, as give it a flash unit like an iPhone as it would be even more best.
But it would cost Apple $5 dollar extra profit per iPad, so perhaps saving $5 makes it the best?

Best means nothing.

 

[ke-iron]

Sorry no, as there is no "Best"
You can take any product on the planet and say it's the best it can be given the overall package of requirements.
It's a totally artificial term.

So we have an iMac with a DVD Drive in the side, this is "Best" as it can play DVD's
Next year, we take the DVD Drive out, and it's the "Best" as we have now decided Best means no DVD Drive.
We fit graphics card A as it's cheaper and makes us more money, saving money was our definition of Best this year.
Now re realise it was underperforming to fit a better graphics card and it's the best now.

You can say any product is the best, as it totally depends on how you the creator see best.

Best could mean, best profit, best weight, best performance, best anything, their is no BEST point.

A Phone with a plastic back, that can deform, take shocks, and not dent could be better technically than aluminium so does that make that the best, or is the aluminium that looks nicer but damages easier the best?

No Flash in the iPad for the camera means it is a worse product than it would be with a flash unit, so it's not the best then, as give it a flash unit like an iPhone as it would be even more best.
But it would cost Apple $5 dollar extra profit per iPad, so perhaps saving $5 makes it the best?

Best means nothing.

I say the current iPads are the best Apple can make and ever made because it was better than the previous one. But by your analogy if what you're saying is true then the current iPads are no better than the original.

"It's a totally artificial term." "Best means nothing." Your assertion is flawed in so many ways. Stop trying so hard to prove the word best means nothing. Just stop.

 

[Piggie]

I say the current iPads are the best Apple can make and ever made because it was better than the previous one. But by your analogy if what you're saying is true then the current iPads are no better than the original.

"It's a totally artificial term." "Best means nothing." Your assertion is flawed in so many ways. Stop trying so hard to prove the word best means nothing. Just stop.

So, the current iPad is THE BEST Apple can make?
So you are stating now as a fact, Apple are, today unable to fit a flash unit into the back of an iPad, which, by any definition would make it better than not having one.
This is, you are saying beyond Apple's ability as of today, and an iPad without a Flash is the best they can manage. yes?

By all means use another term, but BEST is meaningless.

You can use the term BETTER, that is a good and correct term, todays iPad is technically better than the last iPad.
However, also the current iPad is weaker and less strong than the 1st iPad, so iPad1 could be considered the BEST for strength, and iPad Air 2 is not the best in that aspect.