Will LOGIC Replace PRO TOOLS?

[RedRedBlockhead]

How can it be essential? Is that a serious question or a bit of sarcastic banter? The beatles used 8 track recorders. Depends what you're trying to achieve and if new technology has pushed the artistic envelope, then pushing it further in that direction has made that technology essential.

BTW if the industry is reshaping then there there is a strong chance that Logic will become our bread and butter.

 

[dLight]

Pro Tools is the industry standard DAW but do you think that reign will last? why?

I can't really say if Logic will replace Pro Tools... for composing/producing Logic already is the standard for most professional users I know, and all Pro Tools based studios I'm aware of also have Logic. To some degree Logic already has replaced Pro Tools (especially for those who didn't have any choice but PT earlier, if they wanted low latency and lots of DSP power).

Another question is: Will Pro Tools ever threaten Logic's leading position as a combined composing/arranging/score tool?

Of course things will change. Logic already offers lower latency and more DSP power than what you can get from using a HD3 system, but people have different preferences. It's more and more about software and workflow.

Hah, wow, that's the first time I've ever heard anyone extol the virtues of Logic's user interface! Even the die hard fans of Logic that I know admit that logic has a very difficult user interface.

Maybe you haven't been in touch with someone using Logic after Logic 8 came out?

I have owned both Logic and Pro Tools since both programs were released, and always preferred Logic - and with Logic 8, many diehard PT fans have started to use it. On the other hand, if Logic never will get anything Beat Detective / Elastic Audio like, Pro Tools LE may recruit many of Logic's current users - some Logic users already have started to look at PT for that reason.

Time will tell.

 

[WinterMute]

How is elastic time essential?
Engineers have done without it for years.

Yes we have, but we also did without 16 track then 24 track, in-line consoles, digital reverb, then we did without non-linear recording and editing and the ability to record 24-bit 192Khz audio on affordable sytems....

I could go on.

Are you seriously suggesting that the only "proper" recordings are those achieved without any intervention by the engineer?

For the record, I'm a long time user and advocate of 2" 16 and 24 track analog recording, I still think it adds something. However, I'm not going to lob wooden shoes into the machinery of my Protools rig when it allows me to create professional artifacts to the clients specification in a 10th the time and cost of "traditional" recording systems.

Logic is essential, Protools is essential...

In the words or a wiser man than I: "F**k art, lets dance".

 

[TommyLee]

Are you seriously suggesting that the only "proper" recordings are those achieved without any intervention by the engineer?

you're putting words in my mouth. apple and oranges.

 

[WinterMute]

you're putting words in my mouth. apple and oranges.

Nope, I was asking you to clarify your position, I know professionals who will not use PT or Logic as they claim these apps adulterate the music making process, and to be honest, they do.

The commercial reality is that we all have to work faster and cheaper, and the general public doesn't give a toss about recording quality (hence the popularity of 128Kbps Mp3 files).

I'd love to have the time, money and opportunity to track and mix everything off a couple of 16-track 2" Studers, but it ain't gonna happen. I have deadlines and budgets, and frankly both PT and Logic do the job well enough, hence they become operationally essential.

 

[junior]

Just did a quick experiment - actually it's not instantaneous, but It's fast enough for me. Hadn't noticed before.

I guess that Logic only builds the overview after you've finished recording to save processing power whilst it is recording. Makes sense, in a way.

SL

For composers, that isn't a problem at all. But in a studio environment with clients sitting anxiously on the sofa behind you, every second counts.
Aside from compatibility issues, for me the major reason why PT has remained, and will continue to remain the industry standard, is it's absolute speed and simplicity in the audio recording/mixing environment.
Logic may well get there eventually. Not just yet though.

 

[dLight]

granted, it's been a couple years since i've seen it, but i saw a disturbing thing with audio: after recording an instrument, and hitting stop, it would take a long time for the waveform to render on the screen so it could be manipulated. in some cases, over a minute. to me, that's unuseable.

PT is and has been instantaneous. has Logic got that sorted now?

If I remember right, Logic had this way before Pro Tools got it (it was on of the many things Logic Audio could do with the TDM hardware that Pro Tools couldn't do), but it seems that in Logic this behavior is dependent on the speed of your CPU. If your computer is slow, Logic may just disable real time overviews in order to put more priority on audio.

In earlier version of Logic (pre Logic 8) there was a user setting that let the users define if they wanted the waveform to be made after the recording had found place or not, but that seems to be gone in Logic 8.

I know for sure that one of the reasons some users wanted to use Logic as a front end for Pro Tools in the early days was that in PT, one had to stop playback in order to do basic stuff that could be done in real time in Logic. Today PT is a lot better, and Logic also have disabled some real time stuff that could influence stability and performance.

 

[Killyp]

how so?

granted, it's been a couple years since i've seen it, but i saw a disturbing thing with audio: after recording an instrument, and hitting stop, it would take a long time for the waveform to render on the screen so it could be manipulated. in some cases, over a minute. to me, that's unuseable.

PT is and has been instantaneous. has Logic got that sorted now?

To an extent. There is an option to do overviews 'faster', which just renders them in lower (but far more than good enough) quality. On a 2.2 GHz MacBook Pro, it takes under 3 seconds to render a 3:09 long 24 bit 96KHz stereo PCM audio file.

 

[junior]

To an extent. There is an option to do overviews 'faster', which just renders them in lower (but far more than good enough) quality. On a 2.2 GHz MacBook Pro, it takes under 3 seconds to render a 3:09 long 24 bit 96KHz stereo PCM audio file.

Not bad I guess. Makes me wonder, with all the power in processors and the amount of RAM available compared to say, 5 years ago, why Logic can't simply allow the rendering of simple visual audio waves to go on during the recording.
Isn't that the advantage of multi-core processors?

 

[dLight]

Not bad I guess. Makes me wonder, with all the power in processors and the amount of RAM available compared to say, 5 years ago, why Logic can't simply allow the rendering of simple visual audio waves to go on during the recording.
Isn't that the advantage of multi-core processors?

On my Mac, Logic does that all the time. See my earlier post...

 

[junior]

On my Mac, Logic does that all the time. See my earlier post...

I thought you said it didn't do it anymore? Or are you not using 8?

 

[junior]

BTW who the hell chose "other" in the poll?
DP? Reason? Garageband? Virtual DJ?

 

[dLight]

BTW who the hell chose "other" in the poll?
DP? Reason? Garageband? Virtual DJ?

I chose 'other', because the question in the title of the thread ("Will Logic replace Pro Tools?") IMO can't be answered by voting for either Logic or Pro Tools - as I explained earlier in an earlier post.

 

[junior]

I chose 'other', because the question in the title of the thread ("Will Logic replace Pro Tools?") IMO can't be answered by voting for either Logic or Pro Tools - as I explained earlier in an earlier post.

Hmm. You have a point, though I think (without doing any research) it's widely accepted that Logic is the industry standard for composers and arrangers (cubase on the windows side aren't doing bad), while Pro Tools is the standard for studios (as well as Nuendo's doing these days, they're a big minority).

So I would imagine the question implies whether Logic would replace Pro Tools in it's strongest environment any time soon. Thus the answer is a big No.
If the question asked whether PT would replace Logic, I'd imagine the question would be pointing towards the arrangers.

So my point still kinda stands that 'other' is one weird answer.

 

[dLight]

I agree - kind of, but the question of the thread suggest that Pro Tools is 'the' industry standard, which is only partially true (as you say, it is still the industry standard for high end studios - an endangered species).

I know of several studios/engineers who actually prefer Pro Tools who now feel that they have to learn/use Logic (in native or DAE mode), since clients are coming in with Logic projects (with plugins, softsynth etc) they don't want to convert to Pro Tools format in the mixing process. They want to finish the project in Logic, so the engineers have to learn Logic. This was less common only 5 years ago. Also - 5 years ago you couldn't get the same amount of DSP power (or more) from a native system that you always could from a PT HD system. The latency situation has also changed. Hey - even the financial situation has changed, in that less people are willing to / capable of paying for a new PT HD system (or upgrade their old). Many PT users I know stick to their G5s, because they aren't ready to put down cash only to upgrade their current PT systems to a new slot format, which they would have to if they would go Intel. And: these people want to get a new Mac, it's the extra expense in changing the PCI format type that feels like an expense they don't need.

Everything depends on Digidesign and Apple's next move(s). If Logic 8 will be upgraded on the audio/beat editing side, and if Digidesign is making a uncrippled native version of Pro Tools, they would threaten each other's position a lot more than they do to day.

 

[junior]

I agree - kind of, but the question of the thread suggest that Pro Tools is 'the' industry standard, which is only partially true (as you say, it is still the industry standard for high end studios - and endangered species).

I know of several studios/engineers who actually prefer Pro Tools who now feel that they have to learn/use Logic (in native or DAE mode), since clients are coming in with Logic projects (with plugins, softsynth etc) they don't want to convert to Pro Tools format in the mixing process. They want to finish the project in Logic, so the engineers have to learn Logic. This was less common only 5 years ago. Also - 5 years ago you couldn't get DSP power from a native system that you always could from a PT HD system - this has changed. The latency situation has also changed. Hey - even the financial situation has changed, in that less people are willing to / capable of paying for a new PT HD system (or upgrade their old). Many PT users I know stick to their G5s, because they aren't ready for put down cash only to upgrade their current PT systems to a new slot format, which they would have to if they would go Intel. And: these people want to get a new Mac, it's the extra expense in changing the PCI format type that feels like an expense they don't need.

Everything depends on Digidesign and Apple's next move(s). If Logic 8 will be upgraded on the audio/beat editing side, and if Digidesign is making a uncrippled native version of Pro Tools, they would threaten each other's position a lot more than they do to day.

All good points. I keep wondering whether Apple will either create a totally audio orientated app with top hardware or buy a company like MOTU and both simplify and expand on performer and capitalize on their hardware development.
I'd certainly think about it.

 

[dLight]

I thought you said it didn't do it anymore? Or are you not using 8?

Yes, I'm using Logic 8, and the waveforms are created on the fly/instantaneously.

 

[superleccy]

For composers, that isn't a problem at all. But in a studio environment with clients sitting anxiously on the sofa behind you, every second counts.

Personally at the mixing stage I tell my clients to get the f'off my sofa and stop breathing down my neck, but I guess I can only get away with this because they only come to me because they can't afford anyone else.

You'd annoy the clients even more if your recording screwed up because your processor was worrying too much about rendering the waveform preview on the fly and not capturing audio.

Makes me wonder, with all the power in processors and the amount of RAM available compared to say, 5 years ago, why Logic can't simply allow the rendering of simple visual audio waves to go on during the recording.
Isn't that the advantage of multi-core processors?

Okay, so it's not that much of an extra load on the CPU... unless you're recording (say) a big drumkit with 12+ mics (or maybe an orchestra? a choir?) in 24bit 96kHz on an older machine you can't quite afford to replace yet... then you wouldn't want to waste a single clock cycle.

LP8 gives you the option to do it either way. And heck, even post-recording rendering isn't THAT slow.

Aside from compatibility issues, for me the major reason why PT has remained, and will continue to remain the industry standard, is it's absolute speed and simplicity in the audio recording/mixing environment.
Logic may well get there eventually. Not just yet though.

I found LP8 an absolute dog to learn, but now I can whizz round it and do stuff lightning fast. But of course I've never used PT so WTF do I know? I'd love to give it a go but the price and hardware limitations are a major obstacle for me.

SL

 

[ZiggyPastorius]

how so?

granted, it's been a couple years since i've seen it, but i saw a disturbing thing with audio: after recording an instrument, and hitting stop, it would take a long time for the waveform to render on the screen so it could be manipulated. in some cases, over a minute. to me, that's unuseable.

PT is and has been instantaneous. has Logic got that sorted now?

See, this is why I love professionals...I have no idea what everyone's even talking about, but it's so interesting to read about...Hopefully one day I'll be able to talk like I know what I'm doing, technically.

Something like, "You're the first person I've ever heard who likes Logic's user interface..."

I love Logic's interface...I just did an opinion article for the school newspaper (albeit not a very good one) on different music software, including Garageband, Fruity Loops, Cubase, Reason, Logic, Pro Tools, and Finale...I gave Logic the best description in terms of UI look ("beautiful"). I use Logic personally, so I'm a bit biased (I can't afford a Pro Tools rig anyways), and I absolutely love its interface. Ableton, I couldn't stand...I sat there and was like "wtf is this?" Pro tools I've never experienced first-hand, but it didn't look that friendly, though certainly not ugly like Ableton...In college, I'm going to be getting a ******** of music software that comes with the laptop program which includes Pro Tools LE, Logic Express, Kontakt, Garritan, Finale, and all sorts of good shiz...So college will be when I really learn which I like better, Pro Tools or Logic. Until then, I'm stuck being an ignorant high schooler who has no idea what he's doing...

 

[TommyLee]

All Apple has to do is give Logic away free for 1 year and Pro Tools would die

 

[zimv20]

All Apple has to do is give Logic away free for 1 year and Pro Tools would die

that doesn't ring true for me. i paid a lot of $$ for Logic 4 and some soft synths, plus upgrades, but i *still* use PTLE.

it remains that PT is *extremely* good at what it does best, which is track and mix. i know that's not important for everyone, but it is to many. to peel those people away from PT and towards Logic, apple will have to make those functions compellingly better than PT's. it's a matter of functionality and workflow, not cost.

 

[junior]

that doesn't ring true for me. i paid a lot of $$ for Logic 4 and some soft synths, plus upgrades, but i *still* use PTLE.

it remains that PT is *extremely* good at what it does best, which is track and mix. i know that's not important for everyone, but it is to many. to peel those people away from PT and towards Logic, apple will have to make those functions compellingly better than PT's. it's a matter of functionality and workflow, not cost.

Yup, plus the fact that most PT users (especially HD, obv) wouldn't have any problem parting with $600 (I think that's Logic's price these days) if they felt an alternative offered far greater functionality and speed for their particular day-to-day operations.
Money really isn't the issue, unless we're talking about teens or students. Which obviously only represents a tiny portion of 'the industry'.

 

[dLight]

it remains that PT is *extremely* good at what it does best, which is track and mix.

[...]

it's a matter of functionality and workflow, not cost.

WIth the current versions of Logic and Pro Tools, I think it's commonly thought that PT is better than logic in beat editing/Beat Detective/Elastic Time-kind of tweaking, but exactly how is PT better at mixing? And - if cost isn't an issue here, you must be referring to PT LE - how can an application that's so limited be better at tracking? It definitely can't be the number of available tracks (Logic don't have these limitations, and can play back 256 stereo audio tracks and 256 stereo audio instruments), so it must be tracking functionality. Which functions are you thinking of? What about a little Top 5 list for tracking and a similar list for mixing? I know much more about Logic than Pro Tools, so I'm really curious!

 

[junior]

WIth the current versions of Logic and Pro Tools, I think it's commonly thought that PT is better than logic in beat editing/Beat Detective/Elastic Time-kind of tweaking, but exactly how is PT better at mixing? And - if cost isn't an issue here, you must be referring to PT LE - how can an application that's so limited be better at tracking? It definitely can't be the number of available tracks (Logic don't have these limitations, and can play back 256 stereo audio tracks and 256 stereo audio instruments), so it must be tracking functionality. Which functions are you thinking of? What about a little Top 5 list for tracking and a similar list for mixing? I know much more about Logic than Pro Tools, so I'm really curious!

What's the top 5 in Logic? I know much more about Pro Tools so I'm also genuinely interested!

 

[WinterMute]

Logic can't compete with Protools in the professional Post Production and Commercial audio fields mainly because of the hardware options and integration, Logic is already kicking PT LE's arse in composition, programming and editing, and in the project studio field.

Apples aggressive educational pricing helps a lot here, my students are all picking up Logic as they arrive at the Uni, however, those that are going into Post Pro or high end commercial recording are all reporting that Protools HD is still the weapon of choice and shows no sign of changing.