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Will the iPad Mini not fragment the iOS ecosystem?
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what precisely are you talking about?
I find a few things entertaining about this thread...
1. That you are arguing about a device that doesn't exist currently, and for which we have no confirmation, let alone known specs, such as ppi, resolution, screen size, etc.
2. Your concerned about how Apple, the company that builds EVERYTHING around simplicity of design and ease of use, is going to deal with a currently hypothetical problem.
Relax, in a few weeks all will be answered.
1. That you are arguing about a device that doesn't exist currently, and for which we have no confirmation, let alone known specs, such as ppi, resolution, screen size, etc.
2. Your concerned about how Apple, the company that builds EVERYTHING around simplicity of design and ease of use, is going to deal with a currently hypothetical problem.
Relax, in a few weeks all will be answered.
If it's too small for you, get the bigger one or glasses.
Most IPAD UI elements (text, buttons...) of Apps seem too big for me anyway and i would love to shrink them, to make better use of the space.
But then again i'm young and still have perfect eyesight and thin fingers.
So for me, it would never be a problem.
Most IPAD UI elements (text, buttons...) of Apps seem too big for me anyway and i would love to shrink them, to make better use of the space.
But then again i'm young and still have perfect eyesight and thin fingers.
So for me, it would never be a problem.
I miss the logic here. Your counter-argument makes you agree with me.
If you scale down an app, proportions stay the same. No better use of space on the 7.85".
If you make them right for the 7.85", you'll still want to shrink them on the 9.7".
If you make them smaller on the 9.7" for a better use of space, they would be even smaller scaled down on the 7.85". Would it still be good for your young eyes?
The idea is to better exploit blank spaces in app on the larger screen, and condense all on the small one.
For some apps that could be an answer, for others the answer may be something else. In the end, every app will be usable on launch day, but some could be tweaked to be more usable. Those apps that need tweaking will start getting bad reviews and the developer will make a few enhancements as they see fit.
In the end its no big dea and doesn't need much more circular discussions.
Yes, but it won't feel like a waste of space, because its smaller and closer to the size i would like it to be for my eyes.
you understand that is what I'm trying to talk about, right?
you understand it's no more about simply render apps on a screen at the same resolution and then appearing smaller if higher pixel density, right?
so what is non sense as you said after my 1st post, which was about that?
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I hear you but, sorry, still not too worried. I imagine some devs will complain and may have to rework certain UI elements but I imagine the points you bring up went into apple using the ~8" screen size instead of a more standard 7".
From even the small sample of demo/test iPads released in the Samsung case it is clear that Apple does a lot of size-to-usability testing. I think overall the iPad mini will be no big deal. But then I personally don't see the appeal of a 4" phone--especially one that is 4:3. I want a phone that will fit easily in one hand. I'm sure plenty of people here will jump to discredit every opinion I have on that one point alone.
Mad Mac Maniac
macrumors 601
Wow this sure has become a heated debate...
So it seems to me that the main questions are "Does simply shrinking the 9.7" screen to 7.85 impair usability" and then, if so, "How easily is this corrected"
To look at question 1, I tried Grubers "poor man's iPad Mini simulator". This involves taking a screenshot, viewing in photos, and turning sideways. The iPad Mini screen will actually be 8% larger than the resulting image so keep that in mind. Another thing to keep in mind (which has already been stated), these UI elements should be the exact same size as the iPhone. In my opinion, the smaller screen will not result in any significant decrease in usability due to the smaller size of the device as a whole.
Although, I will admit that there will undoubtably be some anomolies. Some apps which already have relatively cluttered, small, and/or precise touch targets. I would wager this amount is small, less than 10%. I think it's reasonable to assume that apple will allow for devs to create a custum UI for the 7.85" iPad. Then it comes down to a matter of how easy Apple makes it for devs with tools, etc. I'm not a dev, so I really have no idea.
So it seems to me that the main questions are "Does simply shrinking the 9.7" screen to 7.85 impair usability" and then, if so, "How easily is this corrected"
To look at question 1, I tried Grubers "poor man's iPad Mini simulator". This involves taking a screenshot, viewing in photos, and turning sideways. The iPad Mini screen will actually be 8% larger than the resulting image so keep that in mind. Another thing to keep in mind (which has already been stated), these UI elements should be the exact same size as the iPhone. In my opinion, the smaller screen will not result in any significant decrease in usability due to the smaller size of the device as a whole.
Although, I will admit that there will undoubtably be some anomolies. Some apps which already have relatively cluttered, small, and/or precise touch targets. I would wager this amount is small, less than 10%. I think it's reasonable to assume that apple will allow for devs to create a custum UI for the 7.85" iPad. Then it comes down to a matter of how easy Apple makes it for devs with tools, etc. I'm not a dev, so I really have no idea.
I think iOS will go through a transition period.
If the new iPhone comes out with a taller display, meaning a new aspect ratio as its rumored, then I strongly assume that all other iOS devices will follow this change, starting with the iPod Touch and then most likely the iPad.
Apparently SJ was against changing the aspect ratio of the iPad, but under the new management anything is possible.
I really hope Apple doesn't shift its focus to please investors instead of prioritizing innovation, like SJ did.
If the new iPhone comes out with a taller display, meaning a new aspect ratio as its rumored, then I strongly assume that all other iOS devices will follow this change, starting with the iPod Touch and then most likely the iPad.
Apparently SJ was against changing the aspect ratio of the iPad, but under the new management anything is possible.
I really hope Apple doesn't shift its focus to please investors instead of prioritizing innovation, like SJ did.
@chleuasme
A couple of data points.
The iPad Mini (if it exists) will likely have the same DPI as the original iPhone and the same resolution as the original iPad.
The original iPhone icon size (the home screen icons) was 57 pixels (114 px for the retina display). The original iPad's was 77 pixels (154 px for the retina). So an iPad mini with the same resolution as the original iPad will have larger icons than the iPhone/iPod Touch.
Same goes for the graphic widgets supplied in the iOS for developers - eg. the Back button you see on so many apps for the iPad will be slightly larger than on the iPhone.
If an app uses the internal iOS text rendering, the iOs will render the text the same size as on the original iPhone, ie 10 pt text will look like 10pt text on the iPhone.
If an app renders text differently (as some apps do), or if it has it's own graphic widgets the text and touch points will be smaller than on the original iPad - however, many if not all apps will have likely followed Apple's guidelines and made their widgets larger than on the original iPhone.
What's more, it's not the area of something on the screen that determines its accessibility, it's the width/height (ie how close it is to other touch specific areas). This is why Apple's guidelines recommend the size as width (or height) rather than area. 20% difference in the linear size of non-standard items will not have a large affect unless the item was close to the minimum it could be already.
In short, it's unlikely that most apps will need to be different from their iPad 2 versions. Those that do can be released in a version that will work both on a Mini and a standard size iPad as long as the developer follows Apple's guidelines.
A couple of data points.
The iPad Mini (if it exists) will likely have the same DPI as the original iPhone and the same resolution as the original iPad.
The original iPhone icon size (the home screen icons) was 57 pixels (114 px for the retina display). The original iPad's was 77 pixels (154 px for the retina). So an iPad mini with the same resolution as the original iPad will have larger icons than the iPhone/iPod Touch.
Same goes for the graphic widgets supplied in the iOS for developers - eg. the Back button you see on so many apps for the iPad will be slightly larger than on the iPhone.
If an app uses the internal iOS text rendering, the iOs will render the text the same size as on the original iPhone, ie 10 pt text will look like 10pt text on the iPhone.
If an app renders text differently (as some apps do), or if it has it's own graphic widgets the text and touch points will be smaller than on the original iPad - however, many if not all apps will have likely followed Apple's guidelines and made their widgets larger than on the original iPhone.
What's more, it's not the area of something on the screen that determines its accessibility, it's the width/height (ie how close it is to other touch specific areas). This is why Apple's guidelines recommend the size as width (or height) rather than area. 20% difference in the linear size of non-standard items will not have a large affect unless the item was close to the minimum it could be already.
In short, it's unlikely that most apps will need to be different from their iPad 2 versions. Those that do can be released in a version that will work both on a Mini and a standard size iPad as long as the developer follows Apple's guidelines.
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I will say I agree for the most part with you when it is fact and not always when it is opinion.
But your start point is a 163 ppi screen (with all the advantages of this hypothesis, that we all know and all repeated). That is still pure speculation.
I object the opinion that scaling down apps at 20% will always give good enough results.
While the surface of a 7.X" 4:3 screen is noticeably larger than a 7" 8:5 screen, it is still noticeably smaller than the 9.7" 4:3 iPad screen.
I don't understand why you all mostly only talk about sizes of tap targets. That point is covered. It is not the problem with the 7.85" hypothesis, I say it myself from the start.
UI elements doesn't only mean button or tap target.
I'm then objecting a 35% smaller (surface) screen allow to do the same tasks.
The dual being, I'm not sure apps written for the 7.85" could always be easily written to also efficiently use the 50% larger surface that the 9.7" screen is.
From that point, I tried to consider another approach (and so, that is pure speculation, that I don't mean to be anything else).
I don't think necessary to repeat one more time the 7.6" @ 264 ppi + optional/necessary Auto Layout variant that i try to discuss since the beginning.
Now,
You say: iOs will render the text the same size as on the original iPhone, ie 10 pt text will look like 10pt text on the iPhone.
yes, they'd use screen at the same pixel density… but, we are talking about iPad apps, and used on a tablet-size device.
Tell me if I'm wrong (*),
I send you back to a post on 1st page: the 10 pts font on the 9.7" iPad app would look like it was 8 pts once on the 7.85" screen (though 10 pts, but higher pixel density makes it appear physically smaller).
(*) talking in pts (dpi) and not px (ppi), my last statement sounds wrong to me: pts measures should be pixel density-agnostic […]. That still would be what'd happen with a 7.85" iPad.
More generally, and to answer on the screen area aspect of the discussion, you are all the ones only talking about accessibility and tap target sizes.
My point is, the quantity of data you can display (image, video, text) is relative to the surface of the screen and the area allocated to content in an app and the physical size it will be on screen.
Of course, if I use 4 pts font I maybe can display more text on, say, an iPhone than the same text with 12 pts font on the iPad (I didn't calculate, you get the idea) ... But I'm not sure the 4 pts text will be very readable.
The size of content has to be adapted to the physical size it will be displayed/used.
I consider the 7.X" iPad will be used at about the same distance as the 9.7" screen (screens are close in size; remember, the 7.85" screen is only 20% smaller in each dimension). I do not think people plan to stick their nose on the screen as they almost have to do with a device the size of an iPhone, the 7.85" screen appears to me to be too large for that.
Then, I consider i don't want to have to scale down [too much] [too often] [systematically] my content. But I still don't want it too big on the 9.7".
A reasonably small font on the iPad will be really too small to be read comfortably at a similar distance on the 7.85" screen.
I'm not sure if I always will be able to distinguish easily the text/symbol of an icon/button (you understand I'm not even talking here about being able to reach it with my finger. I first need to know what to tap on).
If you only use your iPad for watching photos or videos, it is indeed not really important. Most people use their iPad for way more things, and especially deal with a lot of text, and first of all read it as part of UI elements. And then there is e-mails, webpages, books, calendars, etc.
I'm ok with the idea of trading the quantity of data displayed on screen with the comfort to use a subset of it displayed, with UI elements, at an identical size to on the original iPad (i gave an example with my first link. I should spend time with other app screenshots to illustrate it more, like iCal or iBooks). The screen is smaller, what did you expect?
I don't understand (let alone the pavlovian answers on tap target sizes) the reticence some have to see it as a possibility if necessary.
I state it would help to ensure to prevent apps to be cramped on one or the other iPad.
But your start point is a 163 ppi screen (with all the advantages of this hypothesis, that we all know and all repeated). That is still pure speculation.
I object the opinion that scaling down apps at 20% will always give good enough results.
While the surface of a 7.X" 4:3 screen is noticeably larger than a 7" 8:5 screen, it is still noticeably smaller than the 9.7" 4:3 iPad screen.
I don't understand why you all mostly only talk about sizes of tap targets. That point is covered. It is not the problem with the 7.85" hypothesis, I say it myself from the start.
UI elements doesn't only mean button or tap target.
I'm then objecting a 35% smaller (surface) screen allow to do the same tasks.
The dual being, I'm not sure apps written for the 7.85" could always be easily written to also efficiently use the 50% larger surface that the 9.7" screen is.
From that point, I tried to consider another approach (and so, that is pure speculation, that I don't mean to be anything else).
I don't think necessary to repeat one more time the 7.6" @ 264 ppi + optional/necessary Auto Layout variant that i try to discuss since the beginning.
Now,
You say: iOs will render the text the same size as on the original iPhone, ie 10 pt text will look like 10pt text on the iPhone.
yes, they'd use screen at the same pixel density… but, we are talking about iPad apps, and used on a tablet-size device.
Tell me if I'm wrong (*),
I send you back to a post on 1st page: the 10 pts font on the 9.7" iPad app would look like it was 8 pts once on the 7.85" screen (though 10 pts, but higher pixel density makes it appear physically smaller).
(*) talking in pts (dpi) and not px (ppi), my last statement sounds wrong to me: pts measures should be pixel density-agnostic […]. That still would be what'd happen with a 7.85" iPad.
More generally, and to answer on the screen area aspect of the discussion, you are all the ones only talking about accessibility and tap target sizes.
My point is, the quantity of data you can display (image, video, text) is relative to the surface of the screen and the area allocated to content in an app and the physical size it will be on screen.
Of course, if I use 4 pts font I maybe can display more text on, say, an iPhone than the same text with 12 pts font on the iPad (I didn't calculate, you get the idea) ... But I'm not sure the 4 pts text will be very readable.
The size of content has to be adapted to the physical size it will be displayed/used.
I consider the 7.X" iPad will be used at about the same distance as the 9.7" screen (screens are close in size; remember, the 7.85" screen is only 20% smaller in each dimension). I do not think people plan to stick their nose on the screen as they almost have to do with a device the size of an iPhone, the 7.85" screen appears to me to be too large for that.
Then, I consider i don't want to have to scale down [too much] [too often] [systematically] my content. But I still don't want it too big on the 9.7".
A reasonably small font on the iPad will be really too small to be read comfortably at a similar distance on the 7.85" screen.
I'm not sure if I always will be able to distinguish easily the text/symbol of an icon/button (you understand I'm not even talking here about being able to reach it with my finger. I first need to know what to tap on).
If you only use your iPad for watching photos or videos, it is indeed not really important. Most people use their iPad for way more things, and especially deal with a lot of text, and first of all read it as part of UI elements. And then there is e-mails, webpages, books, calendars, etc.
I'm ok with the idea of trading the quantity of data displayed on screen with the comfort to use a subset of it displayed, with UI elements, at an identical size to on the original iPad (i gave an example with my first link. I should spend time with other app screenshots to illustrate it more, like iCal or iBooks). The screen is smaller, what did you expect?
I don't understand (let alone the pavlovian answers on tap target sizes) the reticence some have to see it as a possibility if necessary.
I state it would help to ensure to prevent apps to be cramped on one or the other iPad.
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S
syd430
Guest
It's funny how most people here were laughing at the idea that developers would have to modify their apps, yet now you've got threads like this popping up:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1488619/
This reply, within that thread in particular:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1488619/
This reply, within that thread in particular:
The resolution only needs to be the current 1024x768 or in the future (fingers crossed) 2048x1536. Where is the issue? I am only referring to ipad, as your title suggests.
Edit: oh yeah, why should Apple make devs alter apps for iPad Mini? - it's an iPad! Like they spend so much time advertising it as! IMHO all the fonts, buttons and graphics look fine. No need for change.
Edit: perhaps fonts could be a tad bigger. NY Times app has increased the font size.
Edit: oh yeah, why should Apple make devs alter apps for iPad Mini? - it's an iPad! Like they spend so much time advertising it as! IMHO all the fonts, buttons and graphics look fine. No need for change.
Edit: perhaps fonts could be a tad bigger. NY Times app has increased the font size.
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The Nytimes app already had an option to increase text size, so I'm not sure what they were going on about. Probably the fact that the smaller text was hard to read because it was too fuzzy on the non-retina screen. Sure, the pixel density is higher, but the size of elements are also proportionally smaller, and smaller text is where non-retina screens are at their worst. I can read the text on the Nytimes home page without zooming on my iPhone thanks to the retina screen.
There's no fragmentation. The iPad mini in stores runs the same apps just fine.
Move along folks...nothing to see here.
Move along folks...nothing to see here.
Yup - Offering additional fonts has nothing whatsoever to do with fragmentation (... nice try to someone actually attempting to (MPD) pat themselves on the back there ....
)Nothing to see here but the same old sock puppet parade:
accounts get banned ...
accounts pop up ...
accounts get banned ...
accounts pop up ...
...
...
(there's a few other "interesting" old threads that could also be resurrected)
Still waiting for screenshots in the other linked recent thread to comment more accurately,
but it seems like it's by default. The NYT app, as described in the thread, is said to now detect if it's running on a mini, and adjust size of fonts accordingly on some area of text with too small fonts.
Even if a retina screen would help with smaller fonts, this is not the problem: it's the size it appears on screen.
Another example (with screenshot) here: https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=16228106#post16228106
Is the 'retina' argument going to be the new 'tap target size' argument when people try to talk about size of elements on screen?
It IS the problem. Maybe not for you, but for those of us who have very good eyesight and prefer to have much more content on the screen than larger text size. What exactly is the issue with the picture you linked to anyhow? It's perfectly legible.
Like I said, the retina iPhones finally allowed me to skim the article summaries on the front page of the NYTimes without having to zoom. I sincerely doubt that the ~20% smaller screen of the iPad mini would cause me any difficulty, so yes, I'd prefer that apps continue allowing people to size the text manually rather than defaulting to a larger text size/less content.
You maybe have good eyesight, but just read the letters.
If you don't mind, i quote myself from that topic, few posts after the linked one:
Text on my iPad 4 is routinely displayed at smaller sizes than my iPhone. It's part of the benefit of a larger very sharp screen. If you want phone apps blown up to your tablet, get an Android. I prefer apps that are designed to maximize the available space, not size their text for the lowest common denominator.
Not all apps do. And that can't work in every case. What do you do with text in UI or sub-section of an app with a small paragraph of text, or a situation like the one just linked? you seriously think it's a viable solution to let users zoom in or out as they feel it's right?
I prefer an app displaying well at launch, i don't want to play with zoom factor.
no...it's a precise case: this is a comparison of the same section of text in the same app (on two different UIs iPhone/iPad). we're not talking in general.
Seriously? that's your answer?
... just learn to read, ok?
If you can bear the 19% smaller size on the mini, then why don't you expect to see text 19% smaller also on the retina iPad 9.7". Not really maximized on it.
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