Apps WorkOutDoors: New workout features

[cfc]

Did you include a metric for ETA?

Yes. This is currently available but only for workouts with fixed length distance or time, or for interval schedules where it is possible to calculate. When I improve the navigation then it will also work when using a route. It uses the average pace up to that point.

 

[kabzior]

It uses the average pace up to that point.

It's been my dream for years to have a system that would predict ETA not based on pace so far, but using an algorithm that takes into account the altitude profile and average speed on the ascent/flat/descent. The average pace works well on the flat, but it always made me laugh that Suunto tells me that I have 4h to the end of the route, because I've been going to the summit for 4h, while now it will only be descent and it will probably take 2h 🙂
But I know that it is not easy to implement and rather poor chance that someone will introduce it. In addition, I learned to estimate times myself based on distance and altitude profile. But one can always dream 🙂

PS - I know you don't want to make any plans or promises, but just casual and non-committal - any approximate dates when more or less we can expect new navi functions?

 

[cfc]

It's been my dream for years to have a system that would predict ETA not based on pace so far, but using an algorithm that takes into account the altitude profile and average speed on the ascent/flat/descent. The average pace works well on the flat, but it always made me laugh that Suunto tells me that I have 4h to the end of the route, because I've been going to the summit for 4h, while now it will only be descent and it will probably take 2h 🙂
But I know that it is not easy to implement and rather poor chance that someone will introduce it. In addition, I learned to estimate times myself based on distance and altitude profile. But one can always dream 🙂

PS - I know you don't want to make any plans or promises, but just casual and non-committal - any approximate dates when more or less we can expect new navi functions?

I will probably take into account altitude when calculating ETA in the future, but not in the first version with navigation improvements.

At the moment I am not sure when the AOD version will be released so I really can't guess for the navigation version. The AOD changes will need a lot of testing so my current plan is to start coding the navigation changes whilst the AOD changes are being tested and then decide whether or not to release them both at once. If the AOD testing does not go well then it could mean lots of rewriting of the AOD stuff (and no time to do the navigation) or it may mean minor changes to the AOD stuff followed by more testing time during which I can add the navigation stuff.

I just don't know at the moment because there are too many unknowns with the rewrite for AOD. The navigation features should be easier to estimate but they are dependent upon how long the AOD rewrite takes and how well it goes.

 

[kabzior]

In that case, it's a pity that it's not the navigation that will be implemented first, before AOD 😉
Fingers crossed, keep up the good work 🙂

 

[Mauki]

When I improve the navigation then it will also work when using a route. It uses the average pace up to that point.

Yes, I relate this to navigation.

For now. Can I set a fixed lenght and follow a track?

 

[cfc]

In that case, it's a pity that it's not the navigation that will be implemented first, before AOD 😉
Fingers crossed, keep up the good work 🙂

In the past they were equally popular requests but AOD has become much more requested recently. Multiple times a day whereas navigation is requested maybe every day or two.

I usually like to work on a couple of features at once so I can switch between them, but at the moment I am focussed on AOD. If I get bored or stuck then I may switch, but currently it is going well.

 

[JanGruber]

Hi, I have one question regarding running on treadmill.

I have Ultra, but with native app I am not able to setup the corect speed, although I did calibration - erase all datas and I did 20 minutes outdoor activity.

With WOD I tried to use chest strap from Garmin and I can see that its possible to calibrate the PACE/DISTANCE. With this feature I am able to setup correct actual speed. Yesterday I did aprox 30 minutes at 10km/h pace and WOD showed me actual speed between 9,9-10,1kmh (6:00min/km), which is perfect - with No smoothing and calibration x1,051. But I dont know why Avarage pace was 6:30-6:40min/km during whole run. So at the end after 30 minutes your app shoed me distance 4,62km, but I did slightly over 5km. What I am doing wrong? Can you help me with understanding how to setup it at least a littble bit more accurate? And what exaclty is Rolling pace in menu?

thank you very much
Jan

 

[cfc]

Hi, I have one question regarding running on treadmill.

I have Ultra, but with native app I am not able to setup the corect speed, although I did calibration - erase all datas and I did 20 minutes outdoor activity.

With WOD I tried to use chest strap from Garmin and I can see that its possible to calibrate the PACE/DISTANCE. With this feature I am able to setup correct actual speed. Yesterday I did aprox 30 minutes at 10km/h pace and WOD showed me actual speed between 9,9-10,1kmh (6:00min/km), which is perfect - with No smoothing and calibration x1,051. But I dont know why Avarage pace was 6:30-6:40min/km during whole run. So at the end after 30 minutes your app shoed me distance 4,62km, but I did slightly over 5km. What I am doing wrong? Can you help me with understanding how to setup it at least a littble bit more accurate? And what exaclty is Rolling pace in menu?

thank you very much
Jan

Average speed is based on distance / time, so is dependent upon the accuracy of the "distance" value provided by the sensor. Current pace however is supplied by the sensor in a "pace" value.

So it sounds like that sensor is inconsistent between the pace and distance values that it provides. Rolling pace is the average pace over a recent window. Either the latest n seconds/minutes or the latest n metres.

There was a bug in the app a few months ago where the sensor calibration factor did not affect distances, but this was fixed in v4.8.8. WatchOS often does not update the watch app when you update the iOS app so it is worth checking that you have v4.8.8 or v4.9.0. To do this go to the Settings on the watch and tap More and then scroll to the bottom. However even if you did have an old version then the calibration would only bring the distance up to 4.86km.

 

[dmccombs]

I recorded a walk today and exported it to Strava. In WorkOutdoors the activity showed I did 8730 steps. When I view the workout in Strava, it says I did 17,076 steps.

Its almost as if it doubled the steps recorded in WorkOutdoors. Does anyone have any idea why the steps shown in Strava is about double what WorkOutdoors recorded?

 

[Richo5]

I recorded a walk today and exported it to Strava. In WorkOutdoors the activity showed I did 8730 steps. When I view the workout in Strava, it says I did 17,076 steps.

Its almost as if it doubled the steps recorded in WorkOutdoors. Does anyone have any idea why the steps shown in Strava is about double what WorkOutdoors recorded?

I thought I would check what I was getting in Stava vs WOD for a walk I did yesterday. How do you see number of steps in Strava - I looked through all of the sections of my Activity and I could not see it?

 

[dmccombs]

I thought I would check what I was getting in Stava vs WOD for a walk I did yesterday. How do you see number of steps in Strava - I looked through all of the sections of my Activity and I could not see it?

It was right on the Activity page, right under the Activity Title. It right between the Distance and Time fields. I think it is a new feature as I hadn't noticed the step count before.

 

[Richo5]

It was right on the Activity page, right under the Activity Title. It right between the Distance and Time fields. I think it is a new feature as I hadn't noticed the step count before.

Interesting - I double checked and I definitely don't get step counts displayed on my activities. Maybe this is a new feature and it hasn't rolled out to everyone yet (I have a premium Strava account) and perhaps it is buggy on the Strava side?

 

[vapilot]

I usually like to work on a couple of features at once so I can switch between them, but at the moment I am focussed on AOD. If I get bored or stuck then I may switch, but currently it is going well.

Out of curiosity, why does AOD require a rewrite?

 

[BrianGGG]

In the past they were equally popular requests but AOD has become much more requested recently. Multiple times a day whereas navigation is requested maybe every day or two.

I usually like to work on a couple of features at once so I can switch between them, but at the moment I am focussed on AOD. If I get bored or stuck then I may switch, but currently it is going well.

I am very curious. Can we see any AOD related screenshots ?
Will the look and feel change because of the re expression with different technology ?

 

[cfc]

Interesting - I double checked and I definitely don't get step counts displayed on my activities. Maybe this is a new feature and it hasn't rolled out to everyone yet (I have a premium Strava account) and perhaps it is buggy on the Strava side?

I can't see steps either. I will probably wait until more people have reported it before investigating, especially if it is a new feature.

 

[cfc]

Out of curiosity, why does AOD require a rewrite?

Updating the screen when the app is inactive (wrist down) requires Apple's latest coding language, which is known as "SwiftUI". This appeared long after WorkOutDoors was first released, so the app does not use it, so I need to rewrite the app to use SwiftUI instead of the language I was using, which is called Objective C.

 

[cfc]

I am very curious. Can we see any AOD related screenshots ?
Will the look and feel change because of the re expression with different technology ?

It actually looks almost identical to the current version.

I have got it working to a certain extent. I have been away for a few days of hiking this week and did the first proper tests whilst I was there. It was a mixed bag. The good news was that the app looked and felt practically identical apart from the fact that the metrics and map were visible when my wrist was down. The metrics updated perfectly but the map doesn't (which I knew was the case). I am not sure if that will be possible, especially in the first version.

The bad news was that the app used loads of battery power (2 or 3 times normal!), so I need to analyse that and see what was using the power and work out how I can reduce it. Apple provide tools that allow me to do that but they are a bit temperamental.

My main worry about using SwiftUI has always been that it would be less efficient in terms of battery usage (and memory usage), because that may be something I can't do much about. However it is early days and my knowledge of SwiftUI is very limited, so I am pretty sure that I can make it more power efficient and hopefully as efficient as before.

I hope that gives some idea of why I can't give time estimates for when a version that supports AOD will be available.

 

[MaxSto]

Efficiency is one of the crucial key features of your app.
AOD Usage will consume more battery, that is for sure. But if you disable the AOD, while the app is rewritten in Swift, will the battery usage still be higher then it is now with Objective C and AOD off?

 

[cfc]

Efficiency is one of the crucial key features of your app.
AOD Usage will consume more battery, that is for sure. But if you disable the AOD, while the app is rewritten in Swift, will the battery usage still be higher then it is now with Objective C and AOD off?

I have no idea. It is too early to tell. I have just tried it on an indoor workout and the battery usage was only slightly higher than normal, which is a good sign.

I wouldn't worry about it yet because I won't release it if the battery usage is much worse. I was just keeping people up to date on how the rewrite is going. Using AOD will always use more battery than not using it but I would hope to minimise that difference when using it, and to have the same power usage as before if AOD is disabled.

If that means giving users a choice of using the old UI without AOD or the new one with it then that is what I will do, but I really hope not!

 

[JanGruber]

Average speed is based on distance / time, so is dependent upon the accuracy of the "distance" value provided by the sensor. Current pace however is supplied by the sensor in a "pace" value.

So it sounds like that sensor is inconsistent between the pace and distance values that it provides. Rolling pace is the average pace over a recent window. Either the latest n seconds/minutes or the latest n metres.

There was a bug in the app a few months ago where the sensor calibration factor did not affect distances, but this was fixed in v4.8.8. WatchOS often does not update the watch app when you update the iOS app so it is worth checking that you have v4.8.8 or v4.9.0. To do this go to the Settings on the watch and tap More and then scroll to the bottom. However even if you did have an old version then the calibration would only bring the distance up to 4.86km.

Thank you very much for your reply. I checked the version and I have the latest one - 4.9.0.
Its really weird, the difference its too big.

Best regards
Jan

 

[cfc]

Thank you very much for your reply. I checked the version and I have the latest one - 4.9.0.
Its really weird, the difference its too big.

Best regards
Jan

I must admit that I have never tried using a chest strap for speed and distance so I don't know how accurate they are.

Personally I would trust Apple's calibrated estimates more, so you may want to configure the sensor to only provide current pace and keep using watchOS for average pace and distance.

 

[JanGruber]

I understand, thank you very much for your reply.

And one quick question - when I use Garmin watch for treadmill run I am able to edit the distance after I finish the run and thats how the calibration is done. Is this feature possible in near future in WOD?

thank you very much

Jan

I must admit that I have never tried using a chest strap for speed and distance so I don't know how accurate they are.

Personally I would trust Apple's calibrated estimates more, so you may want to configure the sensor to only provide current pace and keep using watchOS for average pace and distance.

 

[cfc]

I understand, thank you very much for your reply.

And one quick question - when I use Garmin watch for treadmill run I am able to edit the distance after I finish the run and thats how the calibration is done. Is this feature possible in near future in WOD?

thank you very much

Jan

Maybe one day but not in the near future. The app uses Apple's workout system and calibration does not work in that way. I may allow the distance to be over-ridden one day but it is not high priority at the moment.

 

[JanGruber]

Maybe one day but not in the near future. The app uses Apple's workout system and calibration does not work in that way. I may allow the distance to be over-ridden one day but it is not high priority at the moment.

ok thank you very much

 

[tcarlisle]

I have no idea. It is too early to tell. I have just tried it on an indoor workout and the battery usage was only slightly higher than normal, which is a good sign.

I wouldn't worry about it yet because I won't release it if the battery usage is much worse. I was just keeping people up to date on how the rewrite is going. Using AOD will always use more battery than not using it but I would hope to minimise that difference when using it, and to have the same power usage as before if AOD is disabled.

If that means giving users a choice of using the old UI without AOD or the new one with it then that is what I will do, but I really hope not!

Would it be possible to turn AOD on or off per activity type in the settings? For example, on hikes and runs I don't personally need AOD because it is easy to raise my wrist when needed and those activities I would prefer less power consumption. But other activities, like biking, it is harder to raise my wrist so I would not mind AOD. Just a thought while you're developing it.