Apps WorkOutDoors: New workout features

[BlackOrange]

@cfc I enjoyed using the new routes features immensely the last weeks. Worked flawless for me as long as they don’t contain loops.

Actually they are the reason for a feature request that is now making a lot of sense when using routes as distance metric.
What I would love to have is “Time” as target type. Currently it’s only possible to choose between “speed” and “pace”.

Before we could choose routes for distance it didn’t make a big difference as you could just calculate the pace corresponding to a target time and set pace as target type.
Now as we can select a route it makes a difference as it can update the distance on the fly depending on the route and could give a spot on time vs target metric when aiming for a specific time for a specific route.

What is the use case? Races with a fixed official distance when aiming for a specific finish time.
This would have been super useful for me in my New York Marathon.
I was using “time vs target” as my main metric to orient myself how I’m doing. The metric showed me most of the time in front of my target finishing time when in reality I was behind. The reason was, that I was running much more as the official 42.2k.
Using “time” as target type would not have only made it easier, as I would not have needed to calculate my target pace corresponding to the finishing time, but also given correct ”time vs target” values using the route infos. I’m very confident that this would have worked nearly perfect as the “estimated time” metric was spot on.

What do you think? Would it be possible to include time as target type?

 

[cfc]

@cfc I enjoyed using the new routes features immensely the last weeks. Worked flawless for me as long as they don’t contain loops.

Actually they are the reason for a feature request that is now making a lot of sense when using routes as distance metric.
What I would love to have is “Time” as target type. Currently it’s only possible to choose between “speed” and “pace”.

Before we could choose routes for distance it didn’t make a big difference as you could just calculate the pace corresponding to a target time and set pace as target type.
Now as we can select a route it makes a difference as it can update the distance on the fly depending on the route and could give a spot on time vs target metric when aiming for a specific time for a specific route.

What is the use case? Races with a fixed official distance when aiming for a specific finish time.
This would have been super useful for me in my New York Marathon.
I was using “time vs target” as my main metric to orient myself how I’m doing. The metric showed me most of the time in front of my target finishing time when in reality I was behind. The reason was, that I was running much more as the official 42.2k.
Using “time” as target type would not have only made it easier, as I would not have needed to calculate my target pace corresponding to the finishing time, but also given correct ”time vs target” values using the route infos. I’m very confident that this would have worked nearly perfect as the “estimated time” metric was spot on.

What do you think? Would it be possible to include time as target type?

I understand what you are saying and can see how it would be useful. I would probably calculate the time vs target by something simple like (estimated time - target time) * (current time / estimated time). Would that show what you want? If so then the calculations would be relatively easy but I am not sure how the user interface would work.

I will add it to my to-do list but unless more people request it then it won't be high on the list. Sorry about that.

 

[daanjj]

If there was room for another tab then I would add one for Intervals but there isn't at the moment without making things slightly cramped.

And they are only used by a small proportion of the app's users (mainly very keen runners), whereas the other tabs are of use for many more activities.

I may add more tabs in the future, especially if there is a folding iPhone next year. Judging from the rumours the outer screen will be wide enough for 6 tabs and the inner screen could show many more.

Actually, I think it makes a lot of sense to add Schedules/intervals as a tab. At the cost of the 'Screens' tab. The reason: I see setting up Screens typically as something a new user does when familiarising him/herself with WOD. Once the screens have been properly configured to your taste, you hardly never return to those screens. So 'Screen Setup' is a Setting-like action.

The other tabs (Workouts, Routes, Maps and Settings) are all logical to me. As a regular WOD user, I use all of them regularly. Workouts, Routes and Maps all relate to individual runs so you (re)visit them regularly, unlike generic setup stuff like Screens.

I understand why the Screens tab found its position as a tab. The Screens setup is one of the most powerful features of WOD so it could be regarded a pity not to show it prominently. But at the end, it is what it is: just a setting that once properly set, hardly never need to be revisited. My €0.02...

 

[cfc]

Actually, I think it makes a lot of sense to add Schedules/intervals as a tab. At the cost of the 'Screens' tab. The reason: I see setting up Screens typically as something a new user does when familiarising him/herself with WOD. Once the screens have been properly configured to your taste, you hardly never return to those screens. So 'Screen Setup' is a Setting-like action.

The other tabs (Workouts, Routes, Maps and Settings) are all logical to me. As a regular WOD user, I use all of them regularly. Workouts, Routes and Maps all relate to individual runs so you (re)visit them regularly, unlike generic setup stuff like Screens.

I understand why the Screens tab found its position as a tab. The Screens setup is one of the most powerful features of WOD so it could be regarded a pity not to show it prominently. But at the end, it is what it is: just a setting that once properly set, hardly never need to be revisited. My €0.02...

I understand what you are saying but my guess is that ten times as many users use the screens tab when compared with users of the intervals screens. They may only use it once or twice but most people use it so I want to make it easy to find.

People who use interval schedules tend to be more "power users" than others, and therefore more likely to be able to find the interval schedules screens. If I hid the Screens tab inside the Settings tab then a lot of people who would otherwise use it may not notice it.

 

[Psdn]

See a small review from DCRainmaker -

It starts at 11.00

 

[cfc]

See a small review from DCRainmaker -

It starts at 11.00

Thanks for the heads up! His criticism seemed a bit harsh but is probably mostly fair (as it usually is with DCR).

My only complaint would be about his comments on the battery life. That is massively affected by how often you look at the screen and my guess is that someone reviewing an app with as much on-screen information as WOD would look at the screen a lot more often than the average user.

His comment about the app being geeky is fair, but I make no apologies for it. It's hard to make something very functional and also very intuitive and I tend to prioritise the former over the latter. Interestingly I bought a Garmin a few years ago and found it surprisingly difficult to use. I kept forgetting what the buttons did, so maybe my brain works differently and that is reflected in the way WOD works.

The comments about importing routes automatically from Strava and Komoot were interesting. From what I can see it may be possible with Strava but Komoot only offer connectivity for the big companies and not for minor apps like WOD.

 

[daanjj]

I understand what you are saying but my guess is that ten times as many users use the screens tab when compared with users of the intervals screens. They may only use it once or twice but most people use it so I want to make it easy to find.

People who use interval schedules tend to be more "power users" than others, and therefore more likely to be able to find the interval schedules screens. If I hid the Screens tab inside the Settings tab then a lot of people who would otherwise use it may not notice it.

That's what I indeed assumed. Question: could it be something configurable with the current setup as default so that power users could swap Screens with Interval Schedules?

 

[cichykot]

Honestly, every few months, maybe once a year, I ask about adding a button for interval training somewhere visible, like instead of the map download at the bottom of the screen, but for now, it's probably not on the priority list.

The same goes for more configurable ranges like easy, endurance, steady, Sub LT, LT Vo2max, sprints, etc.,
but it's probably not on the priority list either.

I have the impression that few people use WoD for typical training purposes, and we're being pushed to the sidelines a bit.

I'm not complaining, I'm stating a fact. I understand what the word priority means.

 

[cfc]

That's what I indeed assumed. Question: could it be something configurable with the current setup as default so that power users could swap Screens with Interval Schedules?

Maybe in the future. I am expecting the release of the wider screen on the folding iPhone next year will prompt me to revisit the number of tabs.

 

[cfc]

Honestly, every few months, maybe once a year, I ask about adding a button for interval training somewhere visible, like instead of the map download at the bottom of the screen, but for now, it's probably not on the priority list.

The same goes for more configurable ranges like easy, endurance, steady, Sub LT, LT Vo2max, sprints, etc.,
but it's probably not on the priority list either.

I have the impression that few people use WoD for typical training purposes, and we're being pushed to the sidelines a bit.

I'm not complaining, I'm stating a fact. I understand what the word priority means.

The app has gone through a phase of focussing on navigation for the last year or so. This was the most requested feature so it was top of my list.

I am currently in a consolidation phase, as is often the case at this time of year when watchOS is in a state of flux.

In the new year I plan to take a look at the priorities and decide what to work on. At the moment interval schedule improvements are joint top of my to-do list, along with the ability to create custom activity types, and maybe also mirroring workouts to the iPhone (which is often requested by cyclists). I will see at the time.

 

[rxp]

I'd like to vote for on device routing too! Really miss that from my Garmin

 

[cfc]

I'd like to vote for on device routing too! Really miss that from my Garmin

I may add on device routing in the future (either online or preferably offline) but navigation is currently lower on my to-do list whilst I work on other features. After over a year of being focussed on it I need to improve other areas of the app like interval schedules.

The problem is that the map data that the app uses is designed for displaying the map rather than for routing. So it doesn't have information like turn restrictions (e.g. 'can't turn right here'), which means that whilst it would be useful for walking/hiking/running it would not be suitable (and may be dangerous!) for cycling/horse riding etc.

I actually coded offline routing a while back and got it mostly working using the A-star algorithm before deciding that the 'on foot only' limitation meant that it wouldn't be good enough. I will probably revisit it sometime in the future, especially if I ever use a different map source that includes routing data (or if I ever build my own vector map tile server).

 

[rxp]

I only use wod nav when on foot. So I’d love anything that would be an improvement over goose maps. I feel like on my bike it’s much safer using a bikenav or phone

 

[BlackOrange]

I understand what you are saying and can see how it would be useful. I would probably calculate the time vs target by something simple like (estimated time - target time) * (current time / estimated time). Would that show what you want? If so then the calculations would be relatively easy but I am not sure how the user interface would work.

I will add it to my to-do list but unless more people request it then it won't be high on the list. Sorry about that.

Probably it's not so often requested as most people are not using routes (yet) to the full extend and haven't discovered the "Estimated Time" metric in combination with routes

I'm convinced that having a spot on metric how much you are currently before/behind the target finish time during races is what many people are looking for.
This can be seen by the extend of workarounds requested like manual clicking of time at official kilometre/mile markers (and offered by Garmin). ...or the fear of bad GPS signals during races trowing metrics completely off.

A simple calculation like what you mentioned I think would do.
From a user interface perspective can't it just get added as additional option beside "Speed/Pace" in "Target Pace" on the "Pace & Distance" Screen?

Thanks for following up and considering adding that feature.

 

[cfc]

Probably it's not so often requested as most people are not using routes (yet) to the full extend and haven't discovered the "Estimated Time" metric in combination with routes

I'm convinced that having a spot on metric how much you are currently before/behind the target finish time during races is what many people are looking for.
This can be seen by the extend of workarounds requested like manual clicking of time at official kilometre/mile markers (and offered by Garmin). ...or the fear of bad GPS signals during races trowing metrics completely off.

A simple calculation like what you mentioned I think would do.
From a user interface perspective can't it just get added as additional option beside "Speed/Pace" in "Target Pace" on the "Pace & Distance" Screen?

Thanks for following up and considering adding that feature.

The user interface side of things is fiddly because the app could allow someone to set a target time but that is only possible when a fixed length, route, or interval schedule is selected. And then you have the complication of what if someone has selected two of those three?

It's not impossible but would just require some careful thought to include in the app.

 

[Neuvilla]

Thanks again for the app - I continue to enjoy using it! (And sent you a "Massive Tip" - which given how much I love the app is really not massive at all!)

I've started to use the Schedules/Intervals recently. They have been working well but I've noticed a bug or a user error.

I'm trying to change the screen layout, and would like to have a larger text for one metric. I select the exact same metric for three adjacent fields and it displays perfectly on the phone app. However, on the watch (Apple Watch Ultra) it just repeats the metric in each field rather than merging and displaying it once in bigger text. I hope that makes sense. Are you aware of the issue and anything I can do to fix it? Thanks!

 

[cfc]

Thanks again for the app - I continue to enjoy using it! (And sent you a "Massive Tip" - which given how much I love the app is really not massive at all!)

I've started to use the Schedules/Intervals recently. They have been working well but I've noticed a bug or a user error.

I'm trying to change the screen layout, and would like to have a larger text for one metric. I select the exact same metric for three adjacent fields and it displays perfectly on the phone app. However, on the watch (Apple Watch Ultra) it just repeats the metric in each field rather than merging and displaying it once in bigger text. I hope that makes sense. Are you aware of the issue and anything I can do to fix it? Thanks!

Is that in the tower layout, with two fields in the bottom row? If you try to merge those two fields together with the field above then it won't work.

I may fix it one day but for technical reasons it would be a lot of work so probably won't happen anytime soon. Sorry about that.

Many thanks for tip!

 

[Neuvilla]

Is that in the tower layout, with two fields in the bottom row? If you try to merge those two fields together with the field above then it won't work.

I may fix it one day but for technical reasons it would be a lot of work so probably won't happen anytime soon. Sorry about that.

Many thanks for tip!

That's the one. No problem at all - happy for you to focus on other priority areas

 

[cfc]

That's the one. No problem at all - happy for you to focus on other priority areas

You may be able to see what you need by using the grid layout and merging the fields on each row. The grid layout does allow you to merge the bottom row with the rows above.

 

[MarkX]

@cfc what's the chances of implementing a feature allowing users to edit treadmill distance after a run before saving? Similar to what you can do on Garmin, Coros etc?

It's been missing on the apple watch for years and have no idea why it hasn't been implemented yet. For someone like myself I need it, I work in the middle of the ocean for half the year and can only use a treadmill to run on. It is very frustrating after every run to see 5 miles on the treadmill but the watch says 3.5! All stats etc then are useless in health and supporting apps.

Thanks for an otherwise spot on app

 

[cfc]

@cfc what's the chances of implementing a feature allowing users to edit treadmill distance after a run before saving? Similar to what you can do on Garmin, Coros etc?

It's been missing on the apple watch for years and have no idea why it hasn't been implemented yet. For someone like myself I need it, I work in the middle of the ocean for half the year and can only use a treadmill to run on. It is very frustrating after every run to see 5 miles on the treadmill but the watch says 3.5! All stats etc then are useless in health and supporting apps.

Thanks for an otherwise spot on app

That would be fiddly because the app uses Apple's workout system which saves the distance "samples" every few seconds during the workout. So at the end of the workout the app would need to somehow delete all the samples created by watchOS and then recreate one or more samples with new value or values.

Also at the moment the workout is saved when the user ends it, whereas this would require a screen to appear first allowing the user to change the distance. This probably wouldn't be too difficult to implement but would be quite a fundamental change to the way the app works, which is always risky.

So it would be a lot of effort for something that is rarely requested (possibly because the app is mainly bought for outdoor activities). Sorry about that.

A less perfect but more feasible workaround would be the inclusion of a calibration factor to adjust the distances supplied by Apple. This would mean that each sample could be adjusted during the workout and there wouldn't be a need for a screen at the end. However it feels like a half-hearted solution and is requested even less often than the ability to enter a distance.

 

[NME42]

@cfc what's the chances of implementing a feature allowing users to edit treadmill distance after a run before saving? Similar to what you can do on Garmin, Coros etc?

I just finished a treadmill run with WOD and an uncalibrated Stryd footpod and distances were 5.0km (Stryd) and 5.1km (treadmill).
Stryd is a quite expensive footpod, cheaper ones like the Zwift footpod (if this is still offered, did not check) are also ok for treadmill running if distance and pace is enough.
If I am running frequently on the same treadmill I am calibrating the footpod to the distance the treadmill reports. Works great for me.

 

[MarkX]

That would be fiddly because the app uses Apple's workout system which saves the distance "samples" every few seconds during the workout. So at the end of the workout the app would need to somehow delete all the samples created by watchOS and then recreate one or more samples with new value or values.

Also at the moment the workout is saved when the user ends it, whereas this would require a screen to appear first allowing the user to change the distance. This probably wouldn't be too difficult to implement but would be quite a fundamental change to the way the app works, which is always risky.

So it would be a lot of effort for something that is rarely requested (possibly because the app is mainly bought for outdoor activities). Sorry about that.

A less perfect but more feasible workaround would be the inclusion of a calibration factor to adjust the distances supplied by Apple. This would mean that each sample could be adjusted during the workout and there wouldn't be a need for a screen at the end. However it feels like a half-hearted solution and is requested even less often than the ability to enter a distance.

No problem. Thanks for the explanation

 

[MarkX]

I just finished a treadmill run with WOD and an uncalibrated Stryd footpod and distances were 5.0km (Stryd) and 5.1km (treadmill).
Stryd is a quite expensive footpod, cheaper ones like the Zwift footpod (if this is still offered, did not check) are also ok for treadmill running if distance and pace is enough.
If I am running frequently on the same treadmill I am calibrating the footpod to the distance the treadmill reports. Works great for me.

Something I may look in to but for now I'll just stick with my Garmin. It's far simpler for me.

I just want to put my watch on and run. I've calibrated the watch now after many runs and it's within an acceptable distance for me most of the time, if it's not I get to change it

 

[nilsalb]

I just learned that garmin watches in multisport can’t have different routes for each sport making ETA/time remaining metrics impossible to get.

Ian, I know multisport is on your list already but this is an opportunity to leapfrog the competition!

Additionally the top triathlete in the world, Hayden Wilde, is now using Apple Watch as primary training and racing device