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Worth waiting for Haswell?
- Thread starter Panini
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You must have missed this page.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6023/the-nextgen-macbook-pro-with-retina-display-review/8
Yes that means you're wrong. Just because you have incredibly low standards for a $3K machine doesn't really excuse the fact that it performs worse than older MacBooks. you may be ok with that because you don't want to feel ripped off. I understand.
Running 2880 resolution natively on a 15" screen. Yah that's a genius move.
Can you provide a link to what you've seen by anandtech, because looking at their review, they seem to have responded favorably to the new retina macbook pro.
"After using it for the past two weeks I can honestly say it’s the best Mac Apple has ever built. And there’s a lot more to it than hardware."
They expressed that performance in the 10-20W segment is going to get much better over the next few years (and when Haswell arrives), but they did not express an insufficiency of power in the new retina macbook pro.
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jcpb has a very valid point. Improvements in technology are always going to able to run existing technology more optimally. But there is in no way any insufficiencies to the power behind the retina macbook pro. In fact, there's enough power to not only run the retina display, but 3 additional displays-I'd say that's plenty of processing power...
Again, if you want to wait for processing improvements that's your prerogative, but imo you're just prolonging the purchase of leading edge technology from this iterating to the next.
In other words, what's the point in buying a laptop then until there's wireless power or quantum processing or any number of technological improvements that could make the CURRENT piece of leading-edge technology obsolete in the future
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So I am an idiot for paying $3300 for a machine that lags? "I don't want to feel ripped off"? What bullcrap are you harping on?
Why do you feel comfortable imposing YOUR values on me? You don't use a MBPR, never mind using it with the native res, who gives you the right to say "you're wrong"?
For your information, sir, I am aware what I'm getting myself into by using this MBPR. All you do is throw rocks at glass houses. The text in Firefox's address bar is about as high as the thickness of a full-size SD card, and I have no issues seeing that text at 2880 x 1800 while wearing prescription glasses and looking at the screen 1' away.
Quit shoving your words into my mouth, thanks.
In any case, the lag that anandtech found is not a result of processing power, but a software issue. It has to do with the scaling, and rescaling, of the resolution. Apple's intent is to have individual apps handle scaling in different ways in order to optimize them for the display (i.e. you don't want safari at 2880x1800 because that would be virtually unreadable, however in final cut pro or photoshop would allow for a lot more information/detail on the screen). In any case, the UI will be updated in mountain lion, but apple's intent right now is to push developers to change the ways their apps scale. There's plenty of hardware power in the rMBP to run the display, but the scaling/software just needs to improved at the UI level, which I have no double will be done in mountain lion.
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you still dont want photoshop at 2880x1800. you only want opened files to be, which falls in line with the idea of resolution independence. the UI would be scaled, but the actual files you're working on can live at a different and more workable resolution. good idea but really, for the majority of us who are designers/etc, we work on an external monitor nearly 100% of the time anyway (unless you're on the go a lot). in this case i don't think retina display helps much at all unless you're stuck working on a laptop most of the time for some reason.
who knows if the software scaling issue will ever actually be perfected to the point where the RMBP's screen can react as fast as older screens. The moment you introduce software scaling into something that needs an *immediate* response time is when you introduce lag, no matter how slight it may be. if apple could have pushed it to the GPU, i don't see why they would have bothered to write custom software scaling instead.
Intel's IGPs have changed that actually, they've gone from being rock bottom to edging out entry level discrete GPUs. I am not saying they are good enough to be in the mid range segment, I won't go near a computer without a discrete GPU but IGPs have their place and Intel has made good progress.
Actually, the HD4000 is a bigger jump over the HD3000 in most tests than the 650m is over the 6750/6770.
You cant compare a 650M to a 6770. They are 2 different manufacturers. You have to understand that a big jump only happens every 2-3 years, most years are just refinements and speed bumps.
Keplar is a new GPU architecture which is a big jump from the old 500 series.
Also a 50% increase on the bottom end is not as impressive as a 20% jump at the high end.
Its the same as making a Nissan Micra go 80mph instead of 60mph and a F1 car going 250mph instead of 240mph.
One is WAY harder than the other.
hate to say it, but i'm beginning to see your side of this stevalam. watched the anandtech review and his take on 'powering the retina display'. ordered a retina macbook pro, but i'm toying around with canceling it and grabbing a low-end macbook air to tide me over until has well is released (hopefully) by the summertime. unfortunately, i'm in dire need of a computer...so it's one or the other.
i actually have one on order as well and still have over a month to reconsider. my plan right now is to try and set my expectations really low and then get blown away by it
but yah, after the initial WOW I MUST HAVE IT moment when it was first announced, i'm still trying to rationalize how it would actually help me with design (besides the relatively decent horsepower of the machine).
i currently use a macbook with an external monitor at work. 100% of the time photoshop, illustrator, etc etc are always on the external. its not because the screen on my 13" macbook is bad or anything, it just isn't physically big enough to really do work on, and that won't change just because theres more scaled resolutions to choose from on the RMBP.
if you're on the go a LOT and provided software actually gets updated for retina, then sure i can see the RMBP helping.
This is kind of where I'm at right now. My '09 13" MBP just can't handle the workload that I need it to anymore (partially because I've been running pretty intensive VMs). Even a 13" base MBA would practically double my CPU power, but I'm not sure if that would be enough...
The new MBPR would be 3.5x as powerful as my current setup, but I'm uncertain if these graphical issues would hinder that (especially when I start emulating multiple desktops...)
actually you can and you should compare cards from different vendors.
In the fermi arch the close performer for the 6770m was the gt 555m with the 144cores, 192bit bandwidth, with 24 rop and DDR3 vram, that one came in the m14x R1 and the dell xps 17, that was the best gt 555m, and it was trading blows with the 6770m.
Given that the performance of the 650m is higher than the 560m, which is in fact a 460m rebadged with a minor overclock, the 650m is higher than 10% compared to the 6770m.
If you want a comparable card from amd the 7750m is the one. The 7850m should even fit the thermal requirements of the MBP line up, and that is one hell of a card. Those cards are from the GCN arch.
I'm rocking a 2006 MBP 2.0GHz Intel Core Duo hahaha. At this point, anything would be a major upgrade, but (and as much as I love the new rMBP) I'd like to see the CPU/GPU be able to power it with a little more grace. I figure if I spend around $1000 on a macbook air now (with my edu discount) I'll be able to tide myself over (would provide a 3x improvement to my current MBP) until the next iteration of the rMBP is out. Besides, the first version of any product is a kind of an experiment.
Only thing I'm worried about is apple ditching a nice discrete graphics card once haswell is introduced, or will intel's new integrated graphics be able to boast serious graphics power rendering a discrete cared useless? (i'm a starcraft II gamer)
In any case, I'm glad I'm thinking about it-was drooling over the rMBP and had one on order, but my rational side has regained control.
I'm rocking a 2006 MBP 2.0GHz Intel Core Duo hahaha. At this point, anything would be a major upgrade, but (and as much as I love the new rMBP) I'd like to see the CPU/GPU be able to power it with a little more grace. I figure if I spend around $1000 on a macbook air now (with my edu discount) I'll be able to tide myself over (would provide a 3x improvement to my current MBP) until the next iteration of the rMBP is out. Besides, the first version of any product is a kind of an experiment.
Only thing I'm worried about is apple ditching a nice discrete graphics card once haswell is introduced, or will intel's new integrated graphics be able to boast serious graphics power rendering a discrete cared useless? (i'm a starcraft II gamer)
In any case, I'm glad I'm thinking about it-was drooling over the rMBP and had one on order, but my rational side has regained control.
I'm not sure which decision's "rational" - in one you're getting a laptop that may be upgraded the following year. In the other, you're spending $300 (between buying and reselling) to wait and get another computer which may be upgraded even more the following year (Broadwell offers SEVERAL upgrades over Haswell, especially as it's adopting the Multi Chip Design (MCD)). But a year after Broadwell, you have Skylake, which will offer new micro architecture over Broadwell. And if you just wait a year more you get the 10nm Skymont, which breaks the mythical quantum tunneling barrier (of they can pull it off, which they say they can), meaning quite the performance bump again.
Tl;dr - Intel's processors are LOADED over the next 4 years. I'm not sure that going as far to waste money waiting is a good idea when each one seems more of an upgrade than the last.
I mean, I don't want to force your decision, but that's how it works. The fact that RAM/HD can't be upgraded on Apple's computers is almost irrelevant now that Intel has introduced its "new year, new processor" policy.
If you can't upgrade any components, the value depreciates much more rapidly.
Today, I could buy a 2008 macbook pro, upgrade it, and be good to go.
In 4 years, you can buy a used 2012 Retina, but it will *always* have the same specs as the 2012 Retina. Therefore, it will be worth considerably less money
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Good luck getting anyone to listen to you
Hahaha, I'm going back and forth on myself. In the short term, I think I'm going to wait and see how ML handles some of the lag issues with the new rMBP. If they persist, I'll wait. If they don't, it's time to buy.
Hahaha, I'm going back and forth on myself. In the short term, I think I'm going to wait and see how ML handles some of the lag issues with the new rMBP. If they persist, I'll wait. If they don't, it's time to buy.
That's what I'm going to do. I can wait until about the mid-end of August to make a decision, so that's when I'll make one (figure that gives me about a month after most people receive their RMBPs/ML comes out.
AMD chips are currently BIG and HOT. 2 things that dont work well in a slim notebook. 650M GT @ 900Mhz is a great GPU for the rMPB
But as i said you cant compare AMD v Nvidia v Intel IGP. Im so lost on what you said above i cant see the point your trying to make.
My point was that Haswell wont have a GPU that will even compare with todays 650M let alone the GPU's of 2013
I dont know where you are getting your info from, but you dont know what you are talking about.
what I posted was pretty clear, you can and you should compare, I put forth some examples of similarly performing gpus. I gave you the specs for the gt 555m since it was needed there are 5 different versions of that card, with a good gap in performance between those.
you claim that whatever AMD should produce is too hot for the RMBP, which isnt. You dont have the TDP info on ANY mobile card, how can you make such claim?
I took a specific statement of your post to comment, that you cant compare gpus from all vendors. I should have bolded or some other graphical clue to make it easier to read, sorry about that.
But we can comment on the rest of your post, there are only 3 new gpus in the 500m series from nvidia, the 520xm, one of the gt 555m (its only found in the lg p330) and the 570m, you could count on the 485m, since it was so late to the 400m party, but I dont. The rest of the line up are rebadges of the 400m series cards, some with higher clocks, others just the same. For example the 485m is the 580m which in turn is the 675m.
Regarding the jump in performance from the intel igps, we have a current healthy trend of gaining great leaps in performance, since it was put in the same die of the cpu.
the 4500HD, which is found on the arrandale line was a good performance increase from the x3100, albeit both were quite poor, with the introduction of SB, we got the HD 3000 (we are only talking about mobile here, so lets keep it that way) a great step in the right direction and this continues with the HD 4000, and should move forward with whatever haswell shall be named.
The idea from intel is that you dont need, in the future specially with haswell and broadwell, mid range gpus, with the HD 3000 you dont need entry range. The performance is so similar that most would trade that extra heat space for whatever flavor of the month that they want.
NO. Life is short. Wait and your dead.
Buy all you can and enjoy the best of life when you still live!
Buy a retina now and save your eyes so they can look sharp on girls, on the old dipslays you will destory your eyes faster and miss the fun of looking at girls!
Buy all you can and enjoy the best of life when you still live!
Buy a retina now and save your eyes so they can look sharp on girls, on the old dipslays you will destory your eyes faster and miss the fun of looking at girls!
Of course the Intel HD4000 and the next Intel IGPs are all weaker than discrete graphics like the GT650, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't care.
MacBook Pros are constantly switching between the IGP and the discrete graphics card. I'm assuming (correct me if I'm wrong) the HD4000 is to blame for the laggy scrolling / UI animations that some people are experiencing. Of course you could force the use of your discrete card at all times but then you would lose considerable battery life.
Unless I'm assuming wrong and it's the GT650M that is to blame for the choppy animations, isn't the IGP the first thing that should be upgraded in the rMBP? I've heard way more people complain about poor scrolling performance than about poor gaming performance, and it's understandable given that not everybody expect their computer to play all the latests games at max settings, but most expect it to have smooth scrolling and UI animations.
If Haswell fixes all the UI performance problems because of its better IGP then in my book that's better than any improvement of the discrete graphics which is already pretty capable currently.
MacBook Pros are constantly switching between the IGP and the discrete graphics card. I'm assuming (correct me if I'm wrong) the HD4000 is to blame for the laggy scrolling / UI animations that some people are experiencing. Of course you could force the use of your discrete card at all times but then you would lose considerable battery life.
Unless I'm assuming wrong and it's the GT650M that is to blame for the choppy animations, isn't the IGP the first thing that should be upgraded in the rMBP? I've heard way more people complain about poor scrolling performance than about poor gaming performance, and it's understandable given that not everybody expect their computer to play all the latests games at max settings, but most expect it to have smooth scrolling and UI animations.
If Haswell fixes all the UI performance problems because of its better IGP then in my book that's better than any improvement of the discrete graphics which is already pretty capable currently.