Would you buy $399 A18 Pro Mac mini?

[grad]

No, I wouldn't buy an A18 Mac Mini. I wouldn't buy an M4 Mac Mini either, it is NOT the great value everyone in the Internet claims to be. Not everyone lives in USA; the basic model costs 739 EUR here, i.e. 870 USD, 256GB SSD and 16GB are not enough for me, and, typically with Apple, the pricing scales very bad if you want/need something more.

But I would consider an A18 Apple TV.

 

[theluggage]

"Price gouging refers to when retailers and others take advantage of spikes in demand by charging exorbitant prices for necessities, often after a natural disaster or other state of emergency, "

I think the "natural disaster or emergency" here is the current state of Microsoft Windows, the main alternative to Mac OS and the main reason current Mac users will be shelling out $200-per-8GB for Apple's RAM upgrades rather than switching to PC

Seriously, though, whether or not "price gouging" is the correct term, what Apple are doing is creating artificial scarcity and unrealistic prices for RAM and SSD upgrades on Macs. This has always been true to a point - but it's becoming more stark now that RAM and SSD sizes are about the only thing distinguishing the good/better/best models of the M4 machines. It's impossible to compare base prices like-for-like between PC and Mac post-Apple Silicon, but the incremental cost of (say) a 16 to 32GB upgrade, or a 256 to 1TB SSD upgrade on a MacBook is consistently at least twice the cost of a BTO upgrade to, say, a Lenovo Thinkbook or Asus Xenbook, and something like 4x the cost of a DIY M.2/PCIe4x4 SSD upgrade on a PC.

...and yes, "the market" is "bearing" those prices - possibly because the only alternative is switching to Windows or Linux, which is a major upheaval and expense for many (and especially unattractive with the current state of Windows). Of course, the perceived difficulty of switching is also how MS gets away with pushing ads and interrupting people's work with forced updates on Windows...

Anyway, I don't think anybody here is asking the National Council of State Legislatures to beat down Apple's door and force them to cut prices. People are just exercising their right to complain...

...and, yes, although I did end up buying a Mac Studio at Apple Prices I'm pretty sure that I'd have bought a M1 Mini and maybe even gt a M4 Mini to play with if they had more generous memory and storage. (meanwhile, I recently put a 2TB SSD on a Raspberry Pi for under £100).

Anyway, a low-cost A18 Pro Mini at an attractive price would be interesting if I needed a second system - but not at 8GB/256GB with an upgrade to 16/512 doubling the price.

 

[Apple Knowledge Navigator]

Not for my main machine, but for a server/terminal/media centre? Hell yeah.

 

[streetfunk]

the problem vs. apples pricing is the RAM and SSD upgrade situation.*

Even if one would be fine with a A18 -lover power- CPU, some more RAM and/or SSD is never wrong.
M4 minis in basic config are already so low in price. Below $500 for the last few weeks.


* If apple wants to be more competitive, come from there !
a cheap A18 deal with bare minimum RAM an SSD will be a fake deal -$ vs. functionality- in my opinion.

But ok, some folks really have NO funds.
Throw it into a plastic casing, make even that a cool one, ...not even required to lose on the cool......and make it $399 or lower. But then: it´s apple..... it´s Jim "in can build you a car" Cook......it´s: "milk the man" land.

 

[T'hain Esh Kelch]

If it had 16GB RAM, and was 399$ or lower, then yes, I would buy one for the kids. They can use it for writing things, do a bit of video and photo work, surfing, game a lot.

 

[jlc1978]

Yeah ... actually they do price gouge on additional RAM & Storage.

There's no "what the market will bear" if you want a Mac, but just happen to need more internal storage or RAM.

Sure there is. Apple selects price points baed on what the view as the best ones to get the desired returns. If you don't like the price you can not pay it or seek other choices besides a Mac.

A Raspberry Pi would manage that without breaking into a sweat.

However, a Pi is far from plug and play like a Mac. A nice machine but strictly a hobbyist one.

An inexpensive A18 Mini could be a good hobbyist machine as well, but I doubt Apple would hit a low enough price point to make it attractive. They would need to go against the sub-200 Windows boxes and I doubt Apple would even think about that market, let alone enter it.

However, as other point out, one around $300 would be attractive for a lot of users who might like a Mac but find the current prices too high. I do think, however, the rumored A18 MacBook is a better idea than an A18 Mini.

Seriously, though, whether or not "price gouging" is the correct term, what Apple are doing is creating artificial scarcity and unrealistic prices for RAM and SSD upgrades on Macs. This has always been true to a point - but it's becoming more stark now that RAM and SSD sizes are about the only thing distinguishing the good/better/best models of the M4 machines. It's impossible to compare base prices like-for-like between PC and Mac post-Apple Silicon, but the incremental cost of (say) a 16 to 32GB upgrade, or a 256 to 1TB SSD upgrade on a MacBook is consistently at least twice the cost of a BTO upgrade to, say, a Lenovo Thinkbook or Asus Xenbook, and something like 4x the cost of a DIY M.2/PCIe4x4 SSD upgrade on a PC.

You are pointing out a classic case of differentiation in a market. Apple has managed to differentiate the Mac from Windows based machines and thus is able to charge a premium, Lenovo/Asus et. al. are competing in a market that is much more commoditized and thus not able to charge a premium since customers can simply buy a different box running Windows.

Apple tried licensing the Mac's OS and rightly realized it was what is valuable in the market, not the box and so needed licensing agreements. Apple would also have th mess Windows has had with driver compatibility, trying to make it run well on all different chip variants, etc. and likely not be teh MacOS it is today but a collection of compromises like Windows.

Had Apple continued licensing MacOS they would not be able to charge the prices they do today and unless MacOS made significant inroads in Windows' market share, Apple would be a lot less profitable.

 

[maflynn]

Would you buy a Mac mini with an A18 Pro, 8GB of RAM, and 256GB of storage for $399

My question is why? I mean the base M4 can be purchased for 450, why get something with a slower processor, and less ram?

 

[JPack]

My question is why? I mean the base M4 can be purchased for 450, why get something with a slower processor, and less ram?

Because Mac mini A18P would be $299 if we applied similar percentage discounts.

 

[jlc1978]

Because Mac mini A18P would be $299 if we applied similar percentage discounts.

That price point would be very compelling for first time users as well someone wanted a second Mac.

 

[Yvan256]

[...]

Seriously, though, whether or not "price gouging" is the correct term, what Apple are doing is creating artificial scarcity and unrealistic prices for RAM and SSD upgrades on Macs. This has always been true to a point - but it's becoming more stark now that RAM and SSD sizes are about the only thing distinguishing the good/better/best models of the M4 machines. It's impossible to compare base prices like-for-like between PC and Mac post-Apple Silicon, but the incremental cost of (say) a 16 to 32GB upgrade, or a 256 to 1TB SSD upgrade on a MacBook is consistently at least twice the cost of a BTO upgrade to, say, a Lenovo Thinkbook or Asus Xenbook, and something like 4x the cost of a DIY M.2/PCIe4x4 SSD upgrade on a PC.

[...]

Here are the Apple prices in Canada the for Mac mini M4 RAM upgrades. Keep in mind that even when you're doing the exchange rate, the average Canadians don't have the same income levels as their average American counterparts.

They are asking THREE HUNDRED DOLLARS per 8GB.

Searching for "DDR5 RAM" on Amazon.ca, most 32GB kits (2x16GB) from known brands such as Crucial, Corsair and Kingston, G.Skill and TeamGroup are between 110 and 280 dollars, with most kits in the 175-200 range.

Taking the 150 to 200 dollars price range for 32GB means 37.50 to 50.00 dollars per GB. Apple are asking 300 dollars per 8GB. That's six to eight times the cost. Even if Apple were to cut the prices for their RAM upgrades by half, they would still be massively overpriced. And the fact that you cannot upgrade the RAM later, even if it required a trip to the Apple store, means that you need to buy what you think you may need in the future, and most people cannot predict the future.

So is Apple RAM overpriced? Absolutely. Anyone saying otherwise is either in denial or trying to morally justify the price gouging of a multi-billion dollars corporation.

And for those saying "just buy something else", we can't. Those of us who want or need macOS have no other choice than to pay Apple's over-inflated prices. At this point it's not just greed, it's spitting on potential customers from other countries.

 

[maflynn]

Because Mac mini A18P would be $299 if we applied similar percentage discounts.

I don't see it that way. The reason to put a low end processor in the computer and to lower the price, is to entice non-apple customers to take the plunge. I don't see a sufficient difference between 300 dollars and 500 (450 at microcenter and amazon).

I think it makes more sense to put the A processor in a small cheap laptop so apple can compete with the chrome books, but the desktop market doesn't have a customer base that's looking for cheap headless computers that are slow at everything.

Families won't be buying these machines for their kids, they'll be getting chrome books or the rumored apple laptop with the A processor.

 

[rafark]

In a further effort to dumb'ify MacOS down to the capability and functionality of iOS - an OS created for the 2007 iPod Touch, it looks like Apple is considering all options. In a laptop, it seems we'll end up with, essentially, the Apple Chromebook. In a desktop - where frankly, more horsepower and capabilities are expected - there is no argument for a purposely-hobbled computer, with the possible exception of for children's play and homework. And $400 for that - even if from Apple - is unjustified.

Okay but iOS is based on Mac OS X and Steve Jobs said the original iPhone was running Mac OS

 

[rafark]

I’ve set up a few M4 minis and overkill is how I would describe it was well.

But macs are premium computers, they’re expected to be faster and better than entry level computers. When you buy a Mac, you’re buying something above average.

 

[JPack]

I don't see it that way. The reason to put a low end processor in the computer and to lower the price, is to entice non-apple customers to take the plunge. I don't see a sufficient difference between 300 dollars and 500 (450 at microcenter and amazon).

I think it makes more sense to put the A processor in a small cheap laptop so apple can compete with the chrome books, but the desktop market doesn't have a customer base that's looking for cheap headless computers that are slow at everything.

Families won't be buying these machines for their kids, they'll be getting chrome books or the rumored apple laptop with the A processor.

For the purpose of these discussions, we're always using MSRP. The Apple Store price for Mac mini starts at $599.

Notebooks are certainly far more popular than desktops. But if A18P Mac minis were less than half the price of a MacBook, families might ask themselves if they really need a portable notebook if they already have iPads around the house.

 

[maflynn]

For the purpose of these discussions, we're always using MSRP. The Apple Store price for Mac mini starts at $599.

Nope, I think bringing in the actual price many of spend is most accurate approach.

families might ask themselves if they really need a portable notebook if they already have iPads around the house.

Do you have kids? School systems require laptops, iPads are not the best tools to use the schoology, google classroom apps/sites, these things that are not really easily don on a tablet.

I don't know any parent that opted to buy a desktop computer for their kids when their kids need to bring laptops into school with them (mostly chromebooks supplied by the school, but some bring their own laptops).

 

[weckart]

However, a Pi is far from plug and play like a Mac. A nice machine but strictly a hobbyist one.

For the $370 odd difference, I would spend a few minutes googling to set up a music server. It's not rocket science and there are dedicated media OSes written for the Pi anyway. If you must have a Mac, a 2012 Mini will run Sequoia. They come in at about £50 in the UK. More than enough grunt to serve some music over the network. No need to splash out on an M4 for that.

 

[JPack]

But macs are premium computers, they’re expected to be faster and better than entry level computers. When you buy a Mac, you’re buying something above average.

If anything, Apple Silicon punches far more above its weight on the low-end. A18 Pro is faster and better than most $399 Intel-based desktops, which tend to use quad-core i3, Pentium Gold, or Intel 300 (dual-core).

A lot of people still underestimate how fast A18 is. Benchmarks put it somewhere around an M2, depending on how you rate multi-core performance.

Many people regret upgrading from M1 to M4 because the performance isn't noticeable enough. Even Apple advertises only up to 80% faster. On the other hand, the difference between Intel i3 and Apple M1 was something around 3x to 5x faster.

 

[rafark]

If anything, Apple Silicon punches far more above its weight on the low-end. A18 Pro is faster and better than most $399 Intel-based desktops, which tend to use quad-core i3, Pentium Gold, or Intel 300 (dual-core).

A lot of people still underestimate how fast A18 is. Benchmarks put it somewhere around an M2, depending on how you rate multi-core performance.

Many people regret upgrading from M1 to M4 because the performance isn't noticeable enough. Even Apple advertises only up to 80% faster. On the other hand, the difference between Intel i3 and Apple M1 was something around 3x to 5x faster.

The problem is the 8 gigs. A modern desktop computer uses a lot of ram. Apps like office, teams, Spotify, etc. plus a web browser with several tabs (not even in the dozens, just a few) will use a lot of memory.

 

[JPack]

Nope, I think bringing in the actual price many of spend is most accurate approach.


Do you have kids? School systems require laptops, iPads are not the best tools to use the schoology, google classroom apps/sites, these things that are not really easily don on a tablet.

I don't know any parent that opted to buy a desktop computer for their kids when their kids need to bring laptops into school with them (mostly chromebooks supplied by the school, but some bring their own laptops).

So you don't think A18 Mac mini would receive any retail channel discounts whatsoever?

Many schools issue Chromebooks to students to use in class. Kids grow up using an iPad. A $399 Mac mini with a 24 or 27-inch monitor could be very productive for a student at home compared to a 13-inch Chromebook or MacBook.

 

[dgdosen]

If you're the person someone is asking for a recommendation from - and they get 256GB - then you're also going to be the person micromanaging their storage when it runs out.

 

[ignatius345]

It would have to be some secondary use. My main desktop Mac is something I generally am relying on to do heavier lifting. So no, probably wouldn't want a budget A-series Mac Mini unless it was as a dedicated writing computer kept in a different location. And in that case I'd probably just let a MacBook do that job.

 

[jlc1978]

For the $370 odd difference, I would spend a few minutes googling to set up a music server. It's not rocket science and there are dedicated media OSes written for the Pi anyway.

However, setting up a PI often involves some messing with settings, verifying drivers, etc, plus unless you but a refinished box you have to put components together. Based on my experiences, many people lack the skill and knowledge to do that; and I have not seen a true plug and play solution for the PI. I like teh PI, but it is not a viable mainstream device like a Mac or PC.

If you must have a Mac, a 2012 Mini will run Sequoia. They come in at about £50 in the UK. More than enough grunt to serve some music over the network. No need to splash out on an M4 for that.

Sure, and I ran a media server for years on an ancient Core Duo Mini on Leopard. But a simple server is not the same as Mac used for day to day work.

The problem is the 8 gigs. A modern desktop computer uses a lot of ram. Apps like office, teams, Spotify, etc. plus a web browser with several tabs (not even in the dozens, just a few) will use a lot of memory.

People keep brining up "8GBs aren't enough" but forget use cases vary. There are plenty of people who find 8GB perfectly fine and paying more would be a waste of money.

We're talking about low end machine, not one for heavier lifting. Keeping the price down is important in a potential target market for it.

 

[theluggage]

However, a Pi is far from plug and play like a Mac. A nice machine but strictly a hobbyist one.

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The complete Raspberry Pi 500 setup! The Desktop Kit comes with a mouse, a USB-C power supply and an HDMI cable, along with the Official Raspberry Pi Beginner’s Guide, to help you get the most out of your new computer.

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...ready built & pretty much plug and play, comes with the OS pre-installed. Somewhat knobbled by not having an M.2 slot - which the Pi 5 can support - and relying on a SD card, but I guess having a large SSD that could/would get filled with important files, family photos etc. would endagner the (charitable) Pi Foundation's original mission of a cheap computer on which you (or, better, the kids) could mess around with coding without losing more than an easily-rewritten SD card. I think the commercial success of the Pi was a bit unplanned... Of course, you can put together a NvME SSD-based Pi system for < £200 if you like...

Not really a direct competitor to a Mac Mini, but more than capable of "personal productivity" tasks and, yeah, 8GB RAM in a £112 computer...

For the purpose of these discussions, we're always using MSRP. The Apple Store price for Mac mini starts at $599.

Except it sounds like the rumoured A18 MacBook might be aimed squarely at the sort of customers buying the $650 M1 MBAs still (?) being sold at WalMart but AFAIK not on the Apple Store. So it might well be that it either doesn't appear on the Apple Store, or is listed there at a ~meh price, but is more widely available at a discount or via education deals etc. than the higher-end Macs.

 

[weckart]

Sure, and I ran a media server for years on an ancient Core Duo Mini on Leopard. But a simple server is not the same as Mac used for day to day work.

Considering that I was replying to somebody interested in a potential lower specced M4 Mini for use as a music server, I don't think that day to day work is relevant. Somebody just wants hardware for something like a Vortexbox and an M4 Mini of any stripe is overkill.

 

[jlc1978]

Considering that I was replying to somebody interested in a potential lower specced M4 Mini for use as a music server,

Fair enough, I was just responding to your response to me.

I don't think that day to day work is relevant.

In the context of a low priced Mac mini I think it is relevant because that would be the primary use in most cases.

Somebody just wants hardware for something like a Vortexbox and an M4 Mini of any stripe is overkill.

Perhaps, but for many users a lot easier to setup and use.

...ready built & pretty much plug and play, comes with the OS pre-installed.

And that's my point "pretty much plug and play" is different than plug and play. That PI is a nice machine, I considered an earlier version when I bought my PI.

Somewhat knobbled by not having an M.2 slot - which the Pi 5 can support - and relying on a SD card,

However, running a PI from an SD card can be problematic due to SD card corruption and failure issues. There are plenty of posts detailing such problems in various Pi forums, and while hobbyists will live with it that would greatly frustrate a non-technical user.

I like the PI, it's great for many uses such as driving an arcade emulator, but would not seriously consider it as a long term day to day computer without adding better storage than an SD card.

but I guess having a large SSD that could/would get filled with important files, family photos etc. would endagner the (charitable) Pi Foundation's original mission of a cheap computer on which you (or, better, the kids) could mess around with coding without losing more than an easily-rewritten SD card.

Easily rewritten also translate to loss of important files, family photos etc.

I think the commercial success of the Pi was a bit unplanned... Of course, you can put together a NvME SSD-based Pi system for < £200 if you like...

Sure, but at that price point you are competing with cheap Windows systems run out of the box and are familiar to users. A <£300 Mac Mini would offer similar value with MacOS; although I think a cheaper MacBook would be much more popular. Given the need to ad keyboard, mouse and monitor to a Mini would probably push it to close to what such a MacBook might cost anyway.