Would you buy $399 A18 Pro Mac mini?

[theluggage]

And that's my point "pretty much plug and play" is different than plug and play.

I don't think anything is more than "pretty much" plug and play. if you buy the "Desktop kit" you connect the display and mouse, stick the SD card provided into the slot, tplug in the power and it boots to desktop with a half-decent application suite. Apart from the familiarity & processing power, I don't see the big difference.

Easily rewritten also translate to loss of important files, family photos etc.

Not as much as having a fixed internal storage device with 256GB+ of storage.
Alternative: give the kids (or kidults) their own SD cards to corrupt - takes seconds to swap.

I was really speculating on why they left out the M.2. drive option from the Pi 5 - the Pi 5 SoC does support "proper" NVMe drives (not via a USB3 bridge like the earlier Pis) Running off a SD card is definitely the deal-breaker for me with the Pi 500 - although I'm seriously considering building a Pi 5 or CM5 system for fun.

Sure, but at that price point you are competing with cheap Windows systems run out of the box and are familiar to users.

You can put together your own "Mini like" system with a regular Pi, Pi-branded keyboard and mouse, metal case w/cooling and 256GB M.2 NVME for about £170, so - if it were on their agenda I guess they could have done a Pi 500 with 256GB SSD for the £150 mark. It was obviously considered because all the markings for a M.2 slot are there on the logic board of the 500.

It would be interesting to see what happens now they've split the commercial arm from the charitable foundation. With the Pi 5 they're kinda at the point where they've got the basis for a viable a mini-PC ready to "fork" from the hobbyist/maker boards.

Personally, I use Pi 4s to muck around with Linux based things, like media servers - which would also be the main reason that I might consider an A18 Mac Mini, were such a thing to exist (or, otherwise, a refurb M1/M2 Mini). However, I've just added a 2TB M.2 SSD to my Pi 4 media server - £100 for the stick, £20 or so for the M.2. case extension - which is where the Mac Mini route fails dismally.

 

[jlc1978]

I don't think anything is more than "pretty much" plug and play. if you buy the "Desktop kit" you connect the display and mouse, stick the SD card provided into the slot, tplug in the power and it boots to desktop with a half-decent application suite. Apart from the familiarity & processing power, I don't see the big difference.

True, but the biggest difference is once you get past the setup and start using it or installing programs. My experience with Linux is there are often tweaks needed under teh hood to get stuff working, package compatibility issues with programs, etc. that are not really an issue if you like tinkering but would frustrate the average home or business user.

Not as much as having a fixed internal storage device with 256GB+ of storage.
Alternative: give the kids (or kidults) their own SD cards to corrupt - takes seconds to swap.

But that doesn't really solve the problem that SD cards aren't really meant to be used as boot and regular storage. I run into that problem on my Mac trying to use the SD card slot as a way to incrementally backup files as I make changes. Even high quality cards get corrupted after a year or so, some to the point they are unreadable.

I was really speculating on why they left out the M.2. drive option from the Pi 5 - the Pi 5 SoC does support "proper" NVMe drives (not via a USB3 bridge like the earlier Pis) Running off a SD card is definitely the deal-breaker for me with the Pi 500 - although I'm seriously considering building a Pi 5 or CM5 system for fun.

Yea, that was an interesting design choice.

It would be interesting to see what happens now they've split the commercial arm from the charitable foundation. With the Pi 5 they're kinda at the point where they've got the basis for a viable a mini-PC ready to "fork" from the hobbyist/maker boards.

It will be interesting to see what direction they move in with the for profit arm. The challenge I see is not in the hardware, it's pretty impressive for its price, but the software. If the can come up with a solid Linux distribution with an attractive GUI, and perhaps an App Store to make it easy to install popular packages they could have a compelling low cost machine, especially for places like schools that would buy in bulk. The 500 design is pretty robust, and cheap enough to simply replace if busted or relatively easy to repair or salvage parts id just a keyboard breaks.

They could give ChromeBooks a run for their money if they can make an inexpensive laptop.

Still, it is a bit of a gamble to try to compete in the commercial market beyond their current hobbyist focus. Maybe they are looking more at imbedded controllers and automation?

Personally, I use Pi 4s to muck around with Linux based things, like media servers - which would also be the main reason that I might consider an A18 Mac Mini, were such a thing to exist (or, otherwise, a refurb M1/M2 Mini). However, I've just added a 2TB M.2 SSD to my Pi 4 media server - £100 for the stick, £20 or so for the M.2. case extension - which is where the Mac Mini route fails dismally.

The PI is a great choice if you have the technical ability to build a server. If I decide I need a new NAS/media server I'd start with a PI rather than buy an off the shelf solution; or if I decide to switch from my Alexa controlled home automation to Apple build a bridge with a Pi for stuff taht isn't Apple compatible.

 

[Macky-Mac]

For the purpose of these discussions, we're always using MSRP. The Apple Store price for Mac mini starts at $599.

Notebooks are certainly far more popular than desktops. But if A18P Mac minis were less than half the price of a MacBook, families might ask themselves if they really need a portable notebook if they already have iPads around the house.

The problem with comparing the price of a low end mini to a low end laptop is that the mini will also need a keyboard, mouse and monitor.....and certainly some people will have those, but the extra cost would be a negative factor for many shoppers.

Would a A18P Mini cut into sales of the base M4 mini? Probably....so my guess is it's not something Apple would do.

 

[theluggage]

It will be interesting to see what direction they move in with the for profit arm. The challenge I see is not in the hardware, it's pretty impressive for its price, but the software. If the can come up with a solid Linux distribution with an attractive GUI, and perhaps an App Store to make it easy to install popular packages they could have a compelling low cost machine, especially for places like schools that would buy in bulk.

Well, they're not far off. I don't use Pis for the desktop environment (I use mine either headless, plugged into a TV running a 10' interface or with a small touchscreen) but what I've seen looks fairly good - pretty GUI, proper web browser, email, LibreOffice suite and a (free) App store. You've got the usual non Mac/Windows problem of "Where's my MS Office/Photoshop/Zoom" but then the main competitor is probably going to be ChromeOS...

Still, it is a bit of a gamble to try to compete in the commercial market beyond their current hobbyist focus. Maybe they are looking more at imbedded controllers and automation?

It's already huge in embedded controllers/automation - you've got the compute module aimed squarely at that. I don't think the ltd. company spin-off was to seek commercial success, more that the commercial success was a distraction for the charitable foundation...

 

[PhoenixDown]

Only if I wanted to use it as a server for a NAS.

 

[theluggage]

The problem with comparing the price of a low end mini to a low end laptop is that the mini will also need a keyboard, mouse and monitor.....and certainly some people will have those, but the extra cost would be a negative factor for many shoppers.

Yeah, a full set of Magic peripherals would kinda mess up the economy of a cheap Mini. However, virtually anything else works keyboard, mouse and monitor-wise - probably including your TV.

One of the slogans of the original Mac Mini was "Bring your own mouse, keyboard and display".
Heck, even if I bought a current Mini I wouldn't buy a Tragic Mouse & keyboard.

 

[jlc1978]

It's already huge in embedded controllers/automation - you've got the compute module aimed squarely at that.

Yea, that's why I suggested that may be the real focus of the spin-off.

I don't think the ltd. company spin-off was to seek commercial success, more that the commercial success was a distraction for the charitable foundation...

That makes sense. One issue may be commercial success can impact their charitable status, depending on tax laws. I worked for a non-profit research organization and we regularly gave money back to supporters to avoid making to much in interest on unspent funds and jeopardizing our tax exempt status. Anther one I worked for spun off a for-profit company to commercialize their research and funnel money back to the non-profit research part to fund research projects.

You've got the usual non Mac/Windows problem of "Where's my MS Office/Photoshop/Zoom" but then the main competitor is probably going to be ChromeOS...

That's why I think a general purpose Pi device is likely to remain a niche player and could compete against ChromeOS; although Google certainly has the resources to crush the Pi in that space.

That's why I think a low end Mini or More likely a MacBook has an advantage in that MacOS has the programs most people re familiar with; while Linux has very similar ones they are not the same and that is a hurdle that needs to be overcome.

 

[m1maverick]

Apple tried licensing the Mac's OS and rightly realized it was what is valuable in the market, not the box and so needed licensing agreements. Apple would also have th mess Windows has had with driver compatibility, trying to make it run well on all different chip variants, etc. and likely not be teh MacOS it is today but a collection of compromises like Windows.

Curious, what compromises are you referring to?

 

[jlc1978]

Curious, what compromises are you referring to?

A number of things, in no order, off the top of my head:

1. Trying to stay compatible with (some) legacy systems
2. Trying to run on a wide variety of microprocessors of varying capabilities and widely varying power
3. Maintaining driver compatibility with a broad array of add in devices and cards

The inability to optimze harware and software architecture to a known configuration has resulted in such compromises. Their switch to ARM highlights how these and other compromises have hindered Windows with issues the Mac has been able to avoid with their walled garden.

 

[theluggage]

Curious, what compromises are you referring to?

Well, having lots of licensees and having to support third party hardware would make changing processor ISA every 10 years or so a bit harder.... but it wouldn't necessarily turn "modern" MacOS into Windows, which has a pretty unique dependency on a load of legacy software from the dawn of time & also started out with a pathologically non-portable OS in DOS/Win3/Win9x. .

But, honestly, that's not the problem. The problem is that Apple still makes significant money from selling hardware, and licensing Apple clones would just cannibalise their hardware sales. Which was what happened last time around (the decision to license MacOS then was likely forced by a desperate need by a near-bankrupt Apple to raise some cash to keep the lights on). Also, now Macs are built around Apple Silicon systems-on-a-chip (OK, it's ARM ISA but theres a whole bunch of proprietary GPU, neural engine, secure enclave stuff, proprietary boot loaders involved, too) so they'd have to sell Apple Silicon SOCs to cloners, too. Not gonna happen.

DOS/Windows licensing was a success for Microsoft - not so much for IBM, the mugs actually selling the hardware...

 

[Andy_2341]

This is an interesting question. A few days ago I was all about a proposed A18 Pro MacBook, but now I’m unsure. I don’t doubt that an A18 Pro would be enough for most users, even as an 8/256. For a desktop though, I don’t see the benefit. The great value for me getting an M4 mini was I/O on par with a MacBook Pro and same performance in general thanks to the fan, while being way cheaper and portable if I needed.

Maybe a Mac Mini Air? Mac Mini SE? No fan, 2 USB-C rated at USB 3.2 like the 16 Pros, 1 headphone jack , and 1 hdmi. That could make sense and probably fill a cheaper price gap. I don’t know why one would make it. Education wouldn’t have much use because they generally use iMacs for desktops.

 

[JPack]

Maybe a Mac Mini Air? Mac Mini SE? No fan, 2 USB-C rated at USB 3.2 like the 16 Pros, 1 headphone jack , and 1 hdmi. That could make sense and probably fill a cheaper price gap. I don’t know why one would make it. Education wouldn’t have much use because they generally use iMacs for desktops.

The issue with iMac for school is it’s very expensive. Do kids really need the 4.5K display, Thunderbolt, and matching Magic Keyboard and Mouse? Or could they make do with a low-cost Mac mini that’s less half the price by using Dell monitors and Logitech keyboards?

 

[Andy_2341]

The issue with iMac for school is it’s very expensive. Do kids really need the 4.5K display, Thunderbolt, and matching Magic Keyboard and Mouse? Or could they make do with a low-cost Mac mini that’s less half the price by using Dell monitors and Logitech keyboards?

It’s rarely for the kids where I’m at. Admin and staff that aren’t teachers have new iMacs and teachers have M2 MBPs. Students have Chromebooks and only touch iMacs in the library, and those are probably 2015-2018 models.

 

[Tomsun66]

No because if you factor in the price for a memory update, you pay more for less.
Different situation reduced number of TB ports (at least 1 or 2 TB ports remaining the rest of the ports USB-C), same chassis and a price around 299$ so a similar specced A18 is cheaper than the M4 due to weaker ports and weaker silicon. The A18 in same spec RAM/Storage has to be SIGNIFICANT cheaper than the M4. i personally wouldn't buy a device with less than at least 2 TB ports.

 

[iThomas1213]

oh come on

 

[Apple Knowledge Navigator]

I would 100% buy one as something to tinker with. At that price, it could easily replace an Apple TV and be more versatile, too.