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laptech

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2013
3,150
3,504
Earth
Let’s not pretend Intel had a good modem product or patents. Intel only began making modems because Apple convinced Intel’s CEO they needed to dual-source modems. Despite heavy marketing, Intel was never able to sell a single modem to anybody else except Apple.

The 5G patents are dominated by Huawei, Qualcomm, and Samsung.
You do realize Intel have been making modem chips way before Apple's involvement. When I say 'modem' I am referring to a 'communications chip'. For years many of Dell and HP's laptops had Intel wifi cards in them.
 

kiranmk2

macrumors 65816
Oct 4, 2008
1,450
1,696


Teams working on the project were "slowed by technical challenges, poor communication and managers split over the wisdom of trying to design the chips rather than buy them."

From the report:
Teams were siloed in separate groups across the U.S. and abroad without a global leader. Some managers discouraged the airing of bad news about delays or setbacks from engineers, leading to unrealistic goals and blown deadlines.
Sounds like a real problem with management / leadership. It sounds like these managers/project leads need to get more training (or fired) and the level above need to understand the consequences of siloing without an overall project lead.

In my company I see occasions when thousands-tens of thousands of $/£ are wasted and always thought that bigger entities run tighter ships, but no: bigger entitles just waste millions to billions!
 

one more

macrumors 601
Aug 6, 2015
4,159
5,083
Earth
I don’t see a problem with Apple using the best components in the market from leading third party manufacturers. After all, they have been doing it from the beginning with screen panels, RAM modules, cameras, etc. Since Apple usually buy lots of these components, it is also a very lucrative business for their partners, so everybody wins in the end. Or am I missing something?
 

tomtad

macrumors 65816
Jun 7, 2015
1,433
3,565
What’s everyone doing with these modems? I can’t think of anything I’m doing today which is different to 3 years ago, 5G included.
 
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nexusrule

macrumors 6502a
Aug 11, 2012
620
757
Well, if they started 5 years ago and 1 year ago they were 3 behind the best in class modem, they could be ready in another 3 years or so with a competitive modem. Considered the complexity of the project, both technically and patent wise, and that Qualcomm basically always had the monopoly on best modems, 8-10 years is not that bad of a timeframe for something they will basically keep using forever in all their product that have modems. Definitely the 5 years timeline was too optimistic.
 

sack_peak

Suspended
Sep 3, 2023
1,021
954
I don’t see a problem with Apple using the best components in the market from leading third party manufacturers. After all, they have been doing it from the beginning with screen panels, RAM modules, cameras, etc. Since Apple usually buy lots of these components, it is also a very lucrative business for their partners, so everybody wins in the end. Or am I missing something?
Apple doing it in-house would mean more control on the tech and being able to go beyond spec.

Like the Apple A7 chip. It was the 1st 64-bit SoC that was a "desktop" processor. They were ahead of even ARM in this regard.

Controlling such IP gives them a competitive advantage.

Outsourcing a 5G modem pays for the R&D for future modems that would be marketed to all players. Doing it in-house and provides a cost and possibly power consumption advantage over others.

Apple has priority on any present and future leading edge die shrinks.
 

nexusrule

macrumors 6502a
Aug 11, 2012
620
757
Well, Apple (1) claimed they would make their own modems, (2) bought Intel modem division, (3) sued Qualcomm for good measure, (4) miserably failed for reasons shown in the post, (5) retracted/settled their lawsuit so that (6) they could buy again from Qualcomm in the coming years. Mildy embarrassing imho.
Yes, but they didn't stop working on the modem. What the article says it's that 1 years ago they had a modem comparable to the Qualcomm modem iPhone 11 had. Their mistake was to think they could be competitive in the industry in less than 5 years.
 
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Eriamjh1138@DAN

macrumors 6502a
Sep 16, 2007
803
759
BFE, MI
Apple seems to be doing fine so far. Balance sheet looks ok.

They didn’t hit their goal and spent billions. Ok. Set a new goal and keep trying.

They miss a lot of goals. They also continue to succeed in spite of them. Keep trying.

Somewhere, someone calculated when the payoff will be. Hundreds of millions of iPhones are sold and will continue to be sold. Every phone has a modem.

Back to the drawing board.
 
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laptech

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2013
3,150
3,504
Earth
I don’t see a problem with Apple using the best components in the market from leading third party manufacturers. After all, they have been doing it from the beginning with screen panels, RAM modules, cameras, etc. Since Apple usually buy lots of these components, it is also a very lucrative business for their partners, so everybody wins in the end. Or am I missing something?
Apple like to play dirty in the business world but they do not like it when the table are turned and it is them on the receiving end. Take the app store for example. Apple designed it, built it, own it and thus do as they wish with it. Anyone that want's to use the app store is basically told 'You do it our way, you do it how we tell you, when we tell you and price it how ever we want' and if you do not like those terms you are free to go elsewhere' and many agree with Apple on these, even the courts agree with Apple on this but when companies do the same to Apple, oh hell there be fireworks. Apple like to treat others like dirt but when the tables are turned on them it's a whole different story.

Apple wanted to move away from PPC chips and the best around at the time was Intel (they was far superior to AMD at the time). Intel, within reason could demand what they wanted because otherwise Apple would have no CPU chip. I have no doubt the continued arrangement with Intel to use their CPU's annoyed Apple very much because Apple could not hold all the cards to get what they wanted. Intel could have pulled out at any time and Apple would have been in serious trouble, no CPU, no computers and they would not have time to use a rival CPU maker. Apple finally got away from Intel's clutches by making their own CPU and of course what do we see, Apple royally dumping Intel's ass. Qualcomm are in the same position as Intel were, they are in control because without Qualcomm modem chips, Apple devices are a poor version of themselves. So what is Apple trying to do, get rid of Qualcomm's control by developing their own modem chip.

Remember the TV series Dallas, Dynasty and Falcon Crest? All about one family wanting control and domination the business they were in and destroying anyone and everyone that got in their way. Well that is Apple, they want to be in control and dominate over others. They design and build their own computers and mobile phones and thus they do not want to have to rely on others for major parts of their machines in this case the CPU's and modems. One of those hurdles is gone, Intel because now Apple make their own CPU. Now they need to remove the other hurdle, the communication chip which would stop Apple's reliance on Qualcomm. Qualcomm can set it's own terms and conditions and prices of it's modems and if Apple don't like it Qualcomm can quite happily walk away. You see, Qualcomm is in control, not Apple and Apple wont like this, hence their long continued effort into developing their own modem chip.

Remember, with the app store Apple can say 'it's our way or the highway', Intel used to be able to say this but not anymore due to Apple making it's own CPU. Qualcomm still have the power to say to Apple 'it's our way or the highway' and Apple do not like this. As i said, Apple is happy to do it to others but do not like it when it is done to them.
 

Powerbooky

macrumors demi-god
Mar 15, 2008
527
399
Europe


In the last few years, Apple has spent billions of dollars attempting to develop its own modem chip to replace the Qualcomm modem chips that it uses in iPhones, but a new paywalled Wall Street Journal report suggests Apple's approach to the project has been dogged by unrealistic goals, a poor understanding of the challenges involved, and completely unusable prototypes.
...
Apple's plan to design its own in-house modem led to the hiring of thousands of engineers: Apple acquired the majority of Intel's smartphone modem business in 2019, and as it filled the project's ranks with Intel engineers and others hired from Qualcomm, company executives set a goal to have the modem chip ready for fall 2023.
...
Article Link: WSJ: Apple's 5G Modem Prototypes 'Three Years Behind Qualcomm's Best Chip'

Seriously? Thousands of engineers?
 

wanha

macrumors 65816
Oct 30, 2020
1,160
3,331
Extremely embarrassing for Apple, but after all innovation is scarse these days at the company so it’s nothing to be surprised about.

Why exactly is this "extremely embarrassing" for Apple?

They haven't announced anything about their own modems.

All I can see is that they're working on a technology that is new to them and it is proving to be harder than they thought.

This is how R&D projects generally work - some things succeed, some things don't, and others take a heck of lot more time and money than initially thought.
 

DelayedGratificationGene

macrumors 6502a
Jan 11, 2020
659
1,930
Sounds like to me that the WSJ is doing what the media does best and more of lately which is creating news(conflict/FUD etc) when there is none. Apple executives have to be getting some nice laughs at these constant “news” releases. Basically the news headline here is “Apple is creating its own modems.” There is no news…..The media needs those clicks so this is what they have to resort to. It’s a shame.
 

ph001bi

macrumors 6502a
May 26, 2015
584
1,315
London


In the last few years, Apple has spent billions of dollars attempting to develop its own modem chip to replace the Qualcomm modem chips that it uses in iPhones, but a new paywalled Wall Street Journal report suggests Apple's approach to the project has been dogged by unrealistic goals, a poor understanding of the challenges involved, and completely unusable prototypes.

5G-Modem-Feature-Blue.jpg

Apple's plan to design its own in-house modem led to the hiring of thousands of engineers: Apple acquired the majority of Intel's smartphone modem business in 2019, and as it filled the project's ranks with Intel engineers and others hired from Qualcomm, company executives set a goal to have the modem chip ready for fall 2023.

The modem chip project was codenamed Sinope, after the nymph in Greek mythology who outsmarted Zeus.

However, "it soon became apparent to many of the wireless experts on the project that meeting the goal was impossible," according to the report.

The obstacles to finishing the chip were "largely of Apple's own making," according to former company engineers and executives familiar with the project who spoke to WSJ. Teams working on the project were "slowed by technical challenges, poor communication and managers split over the wisdom of trying to design the chips rather than buy them."

From the report:
Apple's ability to design its own microprocessors for iPhones and iPads reportedly caused the company to think it could build modem chips. However, such chips transmit and receive wireless data from various types of wireless networks, and must comply with strict connectivity standards to serve wireless carriers around the world, making them a significantly more challenging undertaking.
Executives reportedly better understood the challenge after Apple tested its prototypes late last year. The results were so poor that the chips were "essentially three years behind Qualcomm's best modem chip," and using them threatened to make iPhone wireless speeds slower than its competitors, according to people familiar with the tests who spoke to WSJ.

Apple was forced to settle its lawsuit with Qualcomm and has since used Qualcomm 5G modem chips for its latest ‌iPhone‌ and iPad lineups. As it stands, 2025 may be the soonest that the technology is finally advanced enough for Apple to phase out Qualcomm, according to the report's sources.

"These delays indicate Apple didn't anticipate the complexity of the effort," said Serge Willenegger, a former longtime Qualcomm executive who spoke to WSJ. "Cellular is a monster." Underlining the significance of Apple's setback, the company last week extended its agreement to obtain modems from Qualcomm for three more years.

Article Link: WSJ: Apple's 5G Modem Prototypes 'Three Years Behind Qualcomm's Best Chip'
In any company, the first thing people do before launching a major investment in a new product is a Buy versus Build analysis. Clearly Apple forgot that bit, or they ignored the outcome of the analysis due to the situation with Qualcomm back in 2018.
 

falkon-engine

macrumors 65816
Apr 30, 2010
1,111
2,743
Unsurprising. Building a cellular modem in a manner that doesn’t infringe on existing patents and also in a power efficient manner is extremely hard. Intel failed. Also that’s why only a few companies have standard essential patents for the complicated math and tech necessary to implement a wireless modem.
 

bergert

macrumors 6502
Jun 24, 2008
255
145
Some people naively believed Apple Silicon would bring down Mac prices. When Apple completes their 5G modem project, it’ll just add to their margins.
Or rather uphold these margins vis-a-vis competition from Android ...

If these modems would not be so expensive to license from Qualcomm, maybe we will see 5G built into all iPads and laptops standard. All mobile devices, and should all have a 5G modem built-in; and not just WiFi.
 

FlyingTexan

macrumors 6502a
Jul 13, 2015
835
580
Not sure who’s making things up but intel modems have been some of the best, if not the best, out there. First thing I did with my Lenovo Legion gaming laptop was swap to the intel modem. Better reception and speeds. Intel modems were the most common place in the industry.
 

Darren.h

macrumors regular
Apr 15, 2023
189
312
APPLE buys Intel's cellular modem business and still 3 years behind.

thats pretty bad.

I wander how long it will take Apple to put Thunderbolt 5 in the new M3 Macs When Intel releases it next year??
 

God of Biscuits

macrumors regular
Sep 17, 2007
222
517
Unless Apple licenses Qualcomm patents so they use the technology in their own modem chips Apple will never have a modem chip that will come close to Qualcomm's modems. Apple has bitten off more than it can chew and their stubbornness to build their own modem chip rather than just pay to use Qualcomm's is costing Apple billions.

yeha, and Apple should be using AMD instead of its own chips in iPhones and Macs! /s
 
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Leon Ze Professional

macrumors 6502a
Sep 23, 2021
599
3,268
"Its circuit board was so big it would take up half an iPhone, making it unusable."

Yikes, it sounds like 2026 is still a very optimistic timeline for the completion date of this modem.
 
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