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[WW] Friend... or foe? : GAME OVER WOLVES WIN
- Thread starter ravenvii
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We voted for twietee - I voted for him two separate times. Most recently on day 3, when no one else did.
Seriously! If one more person posts something akin to "I had it right the whole time!" based on a one-off vote with the huge benefit of hindsight, I might rip my hair out.
*waiting for Meister to chime in*
...based on a one-off vote with the huge benefit of hindsight, I might rip my hair out.
That was nasty though.
Any thoughts on re-instituting the scoreboard system we tried awhile back? Wherein everyone on the winning team gets points, everyone on the losing team loses points, etc.?
I thought that was a fun way to change things up.
I thought that was a fun way to change things up.
i just got back from convocation (btw, why no alcoholic beverages at those ceremonies? gee! ) and have some time for some comments.
it is really easy to 'see' how things are in hindsight, or when the pressure is off and we don't have to make an actual "life-or-death" () decision.
we all do it.
but it is different at the moment and i am sure everyone is thinking, guessing, double-guessing themselves and everyone else, and then come out with a decision which, at the time, seems the most reasonable.
sometimes they are right, some time they are wrong, some times they are right, but for entirely wrong reasons.
for example, the point of trusting the seer on principle is in general a good strategy, but not in absolute.
you'd generally follow the seer, especially when they identify a baddie, because if they are wrong you can retaliate, or you can expect the real seer to come out.
in this game, however, that was not the case. the ww needed a single lynch to win the game, so the retaliation argument was inexistent, and the common consensus was that the seer was gone.
that is a good situation to try to pull a BlindSeer Gambit™, and in fact me and twietee had discussed it, although in our case was more to try to smoke the real seer out on day 3 and protect twietee at the same time. We ruled it out on day 4, exactly because we reasoned noone would fall for it so late.
if you add that Sythas had been unlucky in the scans, and had other weaknesses in his story which i think we exploited well, it would have been silly not to seriously consider the idea he was lying, because he could well have been.
the hunter claim put us on the defensive, as mentioned. We thought the rick scan was a lie, and that he had instead scanned moyank or QoS the second day, finding the hunter.
if he named her and she confirmed, our only next line of defense would be to argue that he guessed that or that he was in cahoot with her, so both were baddies, but we had to set up the defenses before the accusation was done, hence twietee's comment on moyank the Slasher and my 'attack' on QoS.
his decision to wait to come out late in day 4, and then to wait on name the culprit, gave us some room to manouver for damage control, and then the non-appearance of a hunter sealed his lack of credibility and the game, IMO
and even if i were lynched, there was already enough doubt on sythas so to make the next day not a foregone conclusion, no matter what the scan would have said, because me and him could have planned the entire Seer thing together (like melrose had already suggested). leaving twietee in a 50-50 or 33-33-33 situation for the final day, which in our view were still excellent odds compared to what we thought at the beginning of the game.
) and have some time for some comments.it is really easy to 'see' how things are in hindsight, or when the pressure is off and we don't have to make an actual "life-or-death" (
) decision. we all do it.
but it is different at the moment and i am sure everyone is thinking, guessing, double-guessing themselves and everyone else, and then come out with a decision which, at the time, seems the most reasonable.
sometimes they are right, some time they are wrong, some times they are right, but for entirely wrong reasons.
for example, the point of trusting the seer on principle is in general a good strategy, but not in absolute.
you'd generally follow the seer, especially when they identify a baddie, because if they are wrong you can retaliate, or you can expect the real seer to come out.
in this game, however, that was not the case. the ww needed a single lynch to win the game, so the retaliation argument was inexistent, and the common consensus was that the seer was gone.
that is a good situation to try to pull a BlindSeer Gambit™, and in fact me and twietee had discussed it, although in our case was more to try to smoke the real seer out on day 3 and protect twietee at the same time. We ruled it out on day 4, exactly because we reasoned noone would fall for it so late.
if you add that Sythas had been unlucky in the scans, and had other weaknesses in his story which i think we exploited well, it would have been silly not to seriously consider the idea he was lying, because he could well have been.
the hunter claim put us on the defensive, as mentioned. We thought the rick scan was a lie, and that he had instead scanned moyank or QoS the second day, finding the hunter.
if he named her and she confirmed, our only next line of defense would be to argue that he guessed that or that he was in cahoot with her, so both were baddies, but we had to set up the defenses before the accusation was done, hence twietee's comment on moyank the Slasher and my 'attack' on QoS.
his decision to wait to come out late in day 4, and then to wait on name the culprit, gave us some room to manouver for damage control, and then the non-appearance of a hunter sealed his lack of credibility and the game, IMO
and even if i were lynched, there was already enough doubt on sythas so to make the next day not a foregone conclusion, no matter what the scan would have said, because me and him could have planned the entire Seer thing together (like melrose had already suggested). leaving twietee in a 50-50 or 33-33-33 situation for the final day, which in our view were still excellent odds compared to what we thought at the beginning of the game.
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I had it right the whole time!We voted for twietee - I voted for him two separate times. Most recently on day 3, when no one else did.
Seriously! If one more person posts something akin to "I had it right the whole time!" based on a one-off vote with the huge benefit of hindsight, I might rip my hair out.
Admit it: you supporting Sythas with your votes from the get go WAS hindsight!
A bit sad to see such a tasty village fall apart even after everything is said and done. Except some minor braggin' here and there or some aftermath fun.
.
Btw, Pluto, we weren't just eating you for the fun of it, please believe. And I doubt you have to wait for another six months to retaliate - although I'm not sure if I'm allowed to play the next one. Hope it's not the Blade Runner one but DiscWorld..
That sure was frustrating.
Rik supected Don't Panic in the beginning. Then he was killed...
I pointed out several times that Don't Panic posted blocks of text that made no sense at all and had the sole purpose of building a smokescreen. He also gave obviously falls advice and tried to 'clear' Moyank right in the beginning and caused me to vote for her in the second round. (Kudos dp - smart move!) After he tried to pressure me to vote for sceptical or moyank it was clear that he was not in with them. Then sceptical quit ...
And last but not least I had to watch from the grave how Sythas was lynched despite making an excellent point.
Meister,
i think you played a good game, even more so since it was your first, but you are looking at things with too much benefit of hindsight.
while you were correct in accusing me, you were so for mostly incorrect reasons.
the main reason Rick, and then you, were targeted was that we [wrongly] interpreted your steadfast defense of each other as indication that one of you two was the seer and he scanned the other one first (a logical approach) and thus you could trust each other.
my 'blocks of text' were mainly posted to stay true to character (since i usually post my analytical impressions of the game), and while obviously they had to contain a level of deception, i would hold they were mostly valid comments. if i just posted gibberish, the other players would have quickly seen through it.
in particular, the defense of Moyank's that you claim made no sense, was in my opinion quite robust and -ultimately- all true.
she was a villager and thus the advice i gave "do not vote for her" was quite obviously not false.
and again, i did not try to pressure you in any way to change your vote, so you'd be incorrect to validate your impression based on that
i just commented that to vote for oneself, -usually in frustration or to vent disappointment- is in all but very few circumstances pointless and detrimental to your team. i would have done exactly the same comment if i was not a wolf, or if any of the two to be lynched were a wolf.
and i strongly suspect ScepticaScribe would have done the same.
those were comments about the games in general, not this game in particular.
finally, you are right of course about sythas being correct. However, like our northern Cassandra has surely learned by now, to make an excellent point it is not enough to tell the truth, you have to convince the others that it is the truth.
I explained during the game that a selfvote is not pointless for several reasons. But since you and sceptical don't seem to know this, I won't explain in detail why and save this 'move' for a later game.
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From your standpoint not voting for Moyank was false.
And I fail to see any deeper conclusions in your posts. Mere pointless mental gymnastics - gibberish
It did work however and you and Tweetie ate us all And: I had it right the whole time!
Seriously! If one more person posts something akin to "I had it right the whole time!" based on a one-off vote with the huge benefit of hindsight, I might rip my hair out.
Hey, hey, sweetie - I went on over several posts about my viewpoint. I ain't just any ol' villager looking back in hindsight and trying to vindicate myse'f.
Well, I wasn't really referring to you (hope that sweetie is not mocking) - you played a good game and I was close to voting for DP based on your reasoning and also his dogged inclusion of me as a prime suspect, despite my voting patterns. I wish you were more prolific, but, different styles.
I went along with you when you said to "please" vote for twietee. Remember?
He was the object of our failed switcharoo, so it made sense regardless. Things just fell apart after the late Sythas revelation. Again, I'll take the blame for that one. That's about all I can offer - again. Even you have to admit the post-game "I told you so" hindsight from everyone is lol.This thread did provide a wealth of information for use in future games. The voting records stand.
Well, it's finished, but I suppose that I am slightly irked that I failed to persuade people to join me when I tried to nail DP (and who have you in mind when referring to Cassandra?).
Granted, my persistence in pursuing anjinha may have undermined my credibility. Great play wolves; hats off for cool nerves, and excellent strategy and tactics.
Granted, my persistence in pursuing anjinha may have undermined my credibility. Great play wolves; hats off for cool nerves, and excellent strategy and tactics.
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Sythas.
he was the one actually telling the truth, but in the end no one believed him.
everyone else just had opinions, which were on some occasions based on solid reasoning, on others not.
the fact that a posteriori some of those opinions turned out to be correct does not mean they were the truth, just that they eventually coincided with the truth.
One thing that irked me quite a bit and just to make sure you hear that since it got lost in the thread: rick, that misogynist stuff wasn't meant serious in any way, shape or form - at no time. Sorry, if that came across the wrong way - thought you would get that right away as poking around a bit and nothing serious at all. I thought that was obvious.
Twietee, I'm sur Rick is ok with that. Remember when as a wolf and I only killed our lovely girls.... the nickname "lady killer" stuck for a long time
Twietee, I'm sur Rick is ok with that. Remember when as a wolf and I only killed our lovely girls.... the nickname "lady killer" stuck for a long time
Oh, yes, gosh, I do remember that particular, ah, event ..or, series of events the 'Lady killer' ..yes. That does indeed bring back memories...
i already mentioned this earlier, but i can expand it a bit.
i like the pairwise connection because it is adds another level of information and it is a puzzle within the game to be cracked. and i like puzzles.
in fact i was a bit disappointed when everyone went public with it, especially since we had already figured it all out,
it is something to consider carefully when weighting the balance of the game, as it adds a new very significant weapon to the villager's arsenal (so does the tie-break format)
in addition, as you said, it introduces an initial level of team-loyalty which has an effect on the game. but we would need to test-play several time before we know who this favors, or if the effect fades with use.
however, from a WW perspective it has a bitter taste because it implies disloyalty from your partner from the get go. As mentioned, one thing is to lie in the thread, another different in PMs, as it feel more 'personal'. if infact does have an lingering effect on the direct relationship with opther players, than it should be dropped. you and melrose might have a better opinion on this, since you were on the wrong end of it.
however i remember at the beginning, there were several people who had issues with impersonating the 'bad guys'. we even had 'confessions' and people throwing games.
luckily we moved past that and now we all accept that it is a team game of deception, and that if one signs up, one agrees to play to win, no matter which sides you end up with.
it could well be the same with the traitorous PMs.
the other issue is that it can add a lot of work, especially to the WWs. now you have to follow the thread, interact with your comrade and interact with your twin.
I wondered if you were a naughty but didn't want to offend you by voting for my partner.
Thankfully, you MADE ME LINGER ON TO THE LAST POST.
In retrospect, I don't think I usually survived these games...
I didn't know anyone but me knew what that meant, or could use it in casual context...
By that I mean, I have a head full of bits of knowledge most people consider boring.
I couldn't say - I was lynched too early.
But I can say this - I don't really like to tip my hand one way or another. I don't like coming out and saying that I'm a normal villager, because then in the games I don't say that it's obvious that I'm a WW. So I try to play my hand close to the vest at all times. Having a partner seems to encourage sharing details like that, and not knowing whether your partner is a good guy or bad guy makes me want to treat him/her as suspect as anyone else. So I don't really think it benefits my playing style.
the big advantage of the pairing is how it can help the seer.
The seer can scan their team mate first, clear them (or not) and then they have someone who they can trust, who can protect them to some extent and who can act as a more 'spendable' voice of the oracle.
for the rest of the village, i agree that it is dum to blindly trust a paired mate at the beginning, but depending on the development of the game, one can make an educated guess and decide if it has become reasonable to do so.
of course one has to keep an open mind regarding the possibility the partner is from the other team.
if we go back to the multi-special format (which i hope we do as i think it is more fun and engaging), it is hard to predict how it would effect that kind of game, but i think it would be an even larger boon to the village.
I can see the argument of holding back because it's your 'partner' but I doubt that would hold on for too long into the game. Melrose voted for DP IIRC? But he's awesome so that doesn't count maybe. But also Sythas didn't do it.
On the other hand I think there are possibilities to exploit the partnership to an extent. I (not sure about DP) thought at one point rick and Meister played a surprisingly deep game. Not sure if they set that up intentionally and played it through even after rick was dead but it's an unusual element and wouldn't work with just a NW.
Although it is quite some amount of work as a ww since you have to post in the thread, with your partner and your sidekick - and in the crucial moments almost simultaneously.
On the other hand I think there are possibilities to exploit the partnership to an extent. I (not sure about DP) thought at one point rick and Meister played a surprisingly deep game. Not sure if they set that up intentionally and played it through even after rick was dead but it's an unusual element and wouldn't work with just a NW.
Although it is quite some amount of work as a ww since you have to post in the thread, with your partner and your sidekick - and in the crucial moments almost simultaneously.
was it actually done or was it just a proposal? i forget
link?
i might have some time this afternoon to revisit/update that