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[WW] Scoreboard, Stats, and Rules
- Thread starter Don't panic
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
Why is swapper being dual-nature but Leech/Scavenger private only. Why not dual-nature like swapper? Or swapper private only. It seems using leech to try to prevent a swap ought to be a reasonable use of the role
Also - private powers used during the day like leech / scavenge - do they happen at the time they were communicated to the GM or at the end of the day - the description kinda implies they happen at the end of the day. But then swapper can take place publicly instantly? This seems to make swapper more powerful than Leech.
What happens if both Leech and swapper are used on the same target privately - first to communicate to GM gets there first or is there a specific order they are applied?
Also - private powers used during the day like leech / scavenge - do they happen at the time they were communicated to the GM or at the end of the day - the description kinda implies they happen at the end of the day. But then swapper can take place publicly instantly? This seems to make swapper more powerful than Leech.
What happens if both Leech and swapper are used on the same target privately - first to communicate to GM gets there first or is there a specific order they are applied?
it is mostly for thematic reasons (you don't really lech/scavenge in public), but in reality it is not much of a difference. since the leech depends on a communication by the GG -like the swapper- then if the leech uses the power before the swapper (py PM) then it would just work the same, the rest of the players simply do not know about it (but the leecher can still post "i am leeching X" if they want).
in this game, if ravenvii had send a PM leeching tomorrow before pluto swapped him, then pluto would have swapped nothing to you, and ravenvii would have been the new seer.
i will look at the text and re-write more clearly, but they all operate the same way. same with blocker.
i have no problem making them all dual. I think they would be mostly be used in private anyway
rick, I hope you'll remember I'm "most villagerish" the next time you accuse me of a being a wolf in every. single. game.
And yes, DP, awesome job! Thanks for all the work.
of course, the one you are is this one...
I can't help it if they keep infecting me!!
Just stop being that awesome?
That's what should happen imo. (and then we could scratch the dual-nature addendum at all. Think this confuses a lot of players). The exhaustive role description could graphically stand out some more regarding differences using it open/private. For example:
Rioter - This player can once double another player's vote for lynching.
(Active, One-time use, Day-time)
publicly: the double vote counts for majority lock, but it does not affect thresholds. If the rioted player then changes their vote, the last valid vote is always the one doubled. Rioting cannot be used to undo a majority
privately: it will count twice ONLY at the deadline, when the adjusted COUNT is disclosed (not which specific vote was doubled, nor the reason it was doubled). Rioting doubles the last valid vote by the rioted player, regardless of changes. If key to resolve ties, the timing in the thread of the valid doubled vote is what counts. Private rioting does NOT affect majority lock, so it could go wasted if majority was reached in the thread
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One slight general note/observation: I think the exhaustive, go-to roles section should be separated from the scoreboard post.
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We should discuss how certain roles can drag the game in certain situations (collapser within endgame for example) and kill lots of drama.
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I was happy that ww didn't infect a guarded target because I was unsure myself (would have asked mscriv tbh).
It makes sense to play it the way that protection is meant in a general way, not only night-kills. Amplificated powers would overrule that though.
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I honestly don't think there is much need to balance the roles much further though. Explaining them more detailed is another thing. For example how should the Executioner be worked with in case of a ML? I think there could be a set deadline in that case (say 2h) which start right after ML kicked in (not when the GG announces it). In hindsight I should have done that when Pluto got ML'd. Since I didn't, it would have been inconsistent doing it at the end and could have influenced the game. If The Executioner had privately announced a possible action before ML was reached it would have been different of course.
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Last but not least: I think the no1 rule is to ask the GG. Lots of players did that. A few did that exhaustively. All of those were werewolves.
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Thoughts, then, on the swapped Seer, as opposed to the infected Seer, which I raised in the game thread?
I take it that people are happy with the way it turned out, rather than limiting its use somewhat if it is snatched by the WWs as a power, rather than by infecting the person.
I take it that people are happy with the way it turned out, rather than limiting its use somewhat if it is snatched by the WWs as a power, rather than by infecting the person.
I don't think the last game is a good example on how unbalanced it could get. Quite the contrary tbh - I thought it was well balanced overall. Killing off the NW the first night was pure luck, since we especially reintroduced it to counter other effects. Killing off the necromancer the following night as well. But there were still some tools to prevent the swap in play, Leech and majority lock for example, others weren't (the blocker, but could be theoretically; now additionally the guards protection), and the swap could only appear since Tomorrow outed himself in the first place. No criticism, but could have been played differently as well. Maybe the swap being night-time only could work, since then it's basically 50/50 if the (outed) target is protected or not.
I do think that the complex games somewhat make MIA players/villagers having more negative impact though, depending on the role, that I have no real solution for.
I could imagine pimping the Spy so when a possible swap appears s/he could spy on that and get the info player x and player y have been swapped. That would be quite a powerful info. That could mean:
a)spy day and night (too powerful imo)
b)spy day and night but can't do both (day1and night1 would be considered a pair and the spy could use the power in one of the two. so spying n1 and the following d2 would be possible for example)
c)swapper swaps night-time only
d) leave it as is
Can imagine b), c) and d) all the same to be honest. < make it alternatives?
I agree about the negative effect of the MIA people; it really irked me that some of them just did not pull their weight at all.
More to the point, while in the usual games they are just wolf nibble, but in a game of this sort they have roles which remain unused, roles the village is unable to take advantage of, and they may also have opinions and thoughts which could be useful when trying to put the whole thing together.
Re the Seer, then, people are fine with the Power being capable of being swapped, rather than a limit of some sort?
Swapper swapping at night time only strikes me as possibly a good idea.
More to the point, while in the usual games they are just wolf nibble, but in a game of this sort they have roles which remain unused, roles the village is unable to take advantage of, and they may also have opinions and thoughts which could be useful when trying to put the whole thing together.
Re the Seer, then, people are fine with the Power being capable of being swapped, rather than a limit of some sort?
Swapper swapping at night time only strikes me as possibly a good idea.
Think of it the other way as well: an outed Seer could also be swapped by another villager hence the power possibly saved just as well. In regular games, the Seer outs him -herself mid- to endterm, so the Oracle and Necromancer both are already played out if in play (generally speaking). The Hunter, as we learned by Pluto, is better kept in play by the wolves since s/he insta-kills villagers mostly
, and with the Seer-power lost 100% sure shots are almost impossible either, so another valuable role not really interesting for the ww. The only role that'd be interesting I guess is the Guard. Since they get Seer info at the start of the new day they can't see and kill the Guard right away nor infect another role they think valuable for themselves (would also mean infection appears late in game which is also not that common with it being night time only).The sole issue I have right now is what Fenris pointed out in the game-thread: since the target player receives info about lost role due swap at the end of a cycle, it is possible to swap n kill the player without him/her being able to inform the village (Leech the same).
We could let the spy spy anything day and night, but imo it's not that powerful because you need to know before what to spy. In that game, I'm pretty sure the spy would continue to watch the seer every 2 nights instead of waiting for the swapper to do his thing.
But, we could change the seeker to instead of looking wich power is used on a player, could be to knows when a kind of power is used ?
Like he recieved a PM stating that a modifier power as been used (Leech, swapp, Infect) or a controling power (Riot, soother, blocker, collasper)
Think of it the other way as well: an outed Seer could also be swapped by another villager hence the power possibly saved just as well. In regular games, the Seer outs him -herself mid- to endterm, so the Oracle and Necromancer both are already played out if in play (generally speaking). The Hunter, as we learned by Pluto, is better kept in play by the wolves since s/he insta-kills villagers mostly
The sole issue I have right now is what Fenris pointed out in the game-thread: since the target player receives info about lost role due swap at the end of a cycle, it is possible to swap n kill the player without him/her being able to inform the village (Leech the same).
I think DP pointed out that is a GG variant. Like the seer killed the same night, I will tell the seer the result of the scan and that BTW he is dead
I'm in favor to let the swap happened anytime, because that could greatly help the villagers too. Same thing with the Guard.
But yeah maybe buff up the guard protection against evil.
I think DP pointed out that is a GG variant. Like the seer killed the same night, I will tell the seer the result of the scan and that BTW he is dead
Yea, not a fan of this. If the seer dies that night he or she shouldn't be able to tell what he saw. Only if revived later, I'd hand out the info about the scan. But that's down for every GG to decide of course.
And I have to say that I don't really think there is any need to change roles now. Better or more thorouhgly explanations: yes of course! I don't think we should overtly tweak after every single game. Sometimes it's also just bad luck mixed with bad play/excellent play by the opponents.
The swapped Seer made not a real difference. Did it influence the course of the play? Yes! was that necessarily bad? No! The all-out outing was 'fun' I'd argue and pointed directly to Fenris and Melrose.
This is the scenario that will happen most of the time during a game. The villagers will have the power most of the time. The swapper power is fine the way it is.
As far as infections, it depends on who the alpha is. Certain players attract attention every game and have to use it right away. People keep saying "protect the alpha" but that's not an option for some players. I doubt you will ever see again a seer being infected.
If you are keeping the infection only at night, modify the rules to allow the alpha to transfer (one time at night) the infection ability to another WW.
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Agreed. It can happen, but on the off chance when infecting someone that this person could be the Seer. Or Guard, or Necromancer...
Also, I'd argue that the Die-Hard is an attractive candidate as an outed Seer is. Kill the Seer and infect, swap, leech whatever the heck out of the die-hard.
That makes sense, that WWs be allowed to off-load the alpha power at night, and agreed, the infection should only be used at night.
Well, I do see a Seer being infected in the future - granted, it doesn't happen often - but swapping the power may be a bit more unusual.
Two excellent ideas.
I'd certainly agree that the Guard should be able to protect against a swap, and that the position could be strengthened; that is still only one player protected that night.
And, I think that is an excellent tweaking of the seeker powers; inform of a power used rather than having to ask. However, if several powers are used in a given night, how many should he/she be informed of? and should it be kept general (Modifier or Controlling power used) or specific (swap, infect…)
I would only say that he sens a disturbance in the force
it's not a seer power, it's informative and need to keep it vague, and can be trigerred once per cycle per classification. like if the swapper and leech is used during the same night or day, the seeker will only sens the first one.
Once Ravenvii's agent game concludes, I was thinking of running a "saw" themed WW game where the player to be lynched is randomly selected every day and has to be overruled by the players. Are people interested in that concept?
the idea is intriguing, but it might lead to even more apathy since most people will not be invested in that specific player and the personal risk would be minimal to everyone else.
especially in the fist couple of days, why would anyone bother overruling chance? especially where there would be a good argument it is wolvish.
you have to give incentives to the villagers
I think some role tweaks would be in order, but imagine a wolk being randomly selected for death. It makes their collective job to manipulate the vote much harder.
Examples would be punishing villagers for losing villagers x days in a row. Rewarding villagers for switching from villager to wolk vs. randomly getting wolk. An ability that enhances the probability of a wolk being randomly selected the following day.
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