neat idea.
twietee, it would also be good if by default you will then report the official lynching count at the end of each day.
it would be up to the players to recognize what, if anything was changed compared to the public votes in the thread
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[WW] Scoreboard, Stats, and Rules
- Thread starter Don't panic
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
neat idea.
twietee, it would also be good if by default you will then report the official lynching count at the end of each day.
it would be up to the players to recognize what, if anything was changed compared to the public votes in the thread
i updated/rewrote the role descriptions and uploaded in the OP.
i tried to write them in a clearer/more consistent way. feed back is appreciated.
i tried to resolve some of the issues, based on the discussion in the thread. i did make some minor changes to the language of some roles (see blocker, meddler)
i did NOT resolve some of the open questions, since i was waiting for a bit more feedback.
specifically:
a) should the executioner be able to save himself?
previously it was possible. there are arguments to eliminate that option. the current language does not specify either way, which means yes.
b) should the bluff be a general pool role or a WW exclusive?
it is most effective as a WW role, but it could have some usage for the village in specific contexts.
as a village role would be rather weak in most games, as WW role is more interesting
c) should the Kamikaze be moved form the 'WW core' to the 'WW exclusive'.
right now it is a WW core ability, meaning it is certain to occur in games with at least 2 WW and s/he will have an additional power in addition to kamikaze abilities.
moving it to the WW exclusive pool means it would only occur in some games, (like the other WW exclusives), and that they would not get the extra power.
also, it would become subject of the effect of some of the other powers to which it is currently immune
d)more?
i tried to write them in a clearer/more consistent way. feed back is appreciated.
i tried to resolve some of the issues, based on the discussion in the thread. i did make some minor changes to the language of some roles (see blocker, meddler)
i did NOT resolve some of the open questions, since i was waiting for a bit more feedback.
specifically:
a) should the executioner be able to save himself?
previously it was possible. there are arguments to eliminate that option. the current language does not specify either way, which means yes.
b) should the bluff be a general pool role or a WW exclusive?
it is most effective as a WW role, but it could have some usage for the village in specific contexts.
as a village role would be rather weak in most games, as WW role is more interesting
c) should the Kamikaze be moved form the 'WW core' to the 'WW exclusive'.
right now it is a WW core ability, meaning it is certain to occur in games with at least 2 WW and s/he will have an additional power in addition to kamikaze abilities.
moving it to the WW exclusive pool means it would only occur in some games, (like the other WW exclusives), and that they would not get the extra power.
also, it would become subject of the effect of some of the other powers to which it is currently immune
d)more?
a) Yes. The executioner should be able to save themselves with their power.
b) Bluff WW exclusive
c) Kamikaze WW core (An integral part of the game is that the WW have a Kamikaze and an infection). The kamikaze should really be a WW role and independent of powers.
b) Bluff WW exclusive
c) Kamikaze WW core (An integral part of the game is that the WW have a Kamikaze and an infection). The kamikaze should really be a WW role and independent of powers.
Hmm, got carried away while writing I guess, lol.
Initially I wanted to say that I love the Kami and wouldn't change it but really like the idea of it becoming a swappable role. You're right re Seer aspect of course so I'll leave it be. in fact, except for the night watch, i won't change a thing.
still think that infection+kami + 2ww/ex + 2general powers + 1 role of the infectee are OP with now 13 players. if 1or 2 join, ok.
Initially I wanted to say that I love the Kami and wouldn't change it but really like the idea of it becoming a swappable role. You're right re Seer aspect of course so I'll leave it be. in fact, except for the night watch, i won't change a thing.
still think that infection+kami + 2ww/ex + 2general powers + 1 role of the infectee are OP with now 13 players. if 1or 2 join, ok.
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I am not sure i am following your calculations of WW.
if the goal is to keep the ratio of villagers to wolves between 3 and 4 (including the infection),
then with 13 players you would have
13 players
11 starting villagers
2 starting wolves (alpha and kami)
+ 1 infection.
if the WW don't blow the infection, they get a 3rd wolf
so during the game it is effectively 3 wolves and 10 villagers -all with powers-. game value 3.3
WW do not seem very OP to me, even with the WW extra powers
if the infection fails for whatever reason, than it is 2 vs. 11. very tough game for the WW, (5.5 value)
in the very unlikely case the morpher gets selected and then becomes a WW, then it is 4 vs 9 and it would make the WW game much easier
right now we have 15 players, in this situation you can go either way.
keep 2+1, with a base value of 4 if infection is sucessful. that would make a tough game for the WW to begin with, and very very hard if infection fails.
go to 3+1, with a base-line of 2.75 for an easier WW game (note, village still wins the majority of these, based on past games).
if you feel the WW are OP in this context, you can play with the NW (3 members, two teams of two) or take a way the extra role from -for example- the kami. Or -for example- you could identify the 'best' extra roles for the WW and stipulate the WW can get at best one of them.
lots of options.
whatever you chose will be fine, but you should explain the criteria used in the first post of the game thread, so the villager can make informed guesses about roles.
do a few mock role assignements and see how the teams stack up.
for example:
test 1
15 players, 2+1 WW
village core:
seer -># 4
guard -> # 10
undertaker -> # 13
WW core
alpha -> #5 - rioter
kami -> #1 - necromancer
villagers:
#2 - collapser
#3 - thug
#6 - spy
#7 - stretcher
#8 - swapper
#9 - soother
#11 - hunter
#12 - scavenger
#14 - judge
#15- seeker
I understood you that Alpha + Kami both get a WW-exclusive role + an additional general pool one which I felt a bit OP (with then 13 players). If the infection would work out (early- but that's not unusual) they had then 4 powers at hand + one from the infectee.
We're now 15 players so it's fine I guess.
Preferences? I think with 15 players two ww with infection at any given time is ok, no?
only at night.
this way it is a strategic decision rather then a bailout mechanism
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yes, 3 powers would be way OP.
actually they way it is written now, the core do not get access to the WW exclusives, only to the general pool ones. one reason is not to OP them, the other is that they need the general pool one to 'hide'. otherwise the villagers can just all declare their powers at the beginning and the WW are left exposed. it is the reason in the 'normal' games you need a bunch of plain villagers, regardless on how good/bad the powers are
with only 2 initial WW, the WW exclusives are not in play at all
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here is how a possible game with 15 players and 3 initial WW would look like
test 2
15 players, 3+1 WW
balance tweaks: kami does not get extra power, NW
village core:
seer -># 14
guard -> # 4
undertaker -> # 12
WW core
alpha -> #7 - seeker
kami -> #13 - no additional powers
normal -> 3 - leech
villagers:
#1 - stalwart
#2 - executioner
#5 - spy
#6 - reverber
#8 - necromancer
#9 - stretcher
#19 - oracle
#11 - rioter
#15- collapser
NW: #2, #14,
test 2
15 players, 3+1 WW
balance tweaks: kami does not get extra power, NW
village core:
seer -># 14
guard -> # 4
undertaker -> # 12
WW core
alpha -> #7 - seeker
kami -> #13 - no additional powers
normal -> 3 - leech
villagers:
#1 - stalwart
#2 - executioner
#5 - spy
#6 - reverber
#8 - necromancer
#9 - stretcher
#19 - oracle
#11 - rioter
#15- collapser
NW: #2, #14,
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a) there seem to be different opinions on the executioner.
i put it as two variants, so the GG can choose
b) it is there now
c) kami is staying as WW core by default, unless a GG wants different
one of my favorite roles is the Amplifier.
it's probably the most complex role in term of effects, because the effect is different depending on the target.
It is a very powerful role, but also risky one: it can be a tremendous help for the village, but if used improperly it could gift the game to the WW.
I also like the fact that it forces the target to spend their power, so it messes with other people's plans, and that there is a timing issue,: the more you wait, the more likely you used it properly, but also the more likely it gets wasted.
10. Amplifier - This player can enhance the activity of one player for the next applicable day or night-time period (not both).
The amplified player gets notified of the extra power.
It is a FORCED enhancement of the activity, not a second use. Thus, the target MUST use the power in that timeframe (or the very next one depending on the target power), although what they do with it is their choice. If the target’s power was already spent, nothing happens and the amplification is wasted.
the target players needs to use the amplified powers in one go (they can't wait for a result to use the double scan, for example)
Amplification does not apply to core WW powers such as night-time kills, infection or kamikaze kills. It could apply to a Maniac kill.
(Active, One-time use, Anytime, Dual-nature)
Examples: a Seer will get a double scan that night, a Guard gets double protection that night, the Hunter gets two kills (but they HAVE to be used at that time, or they are BOTH lost). If a rioter is targeted, the Rioter gets to riot two players, but s/he MUST use the power in the current/earliest vote period
I made a putative full list of possible effects, to simplify/unify interpretations and to try to make them balanced and consistent.
target role: amplified effect
Seer: scans two people the same night
Guard: protects two people the same night
Undertaker: scans two people the same night
Stalwart: completely immune to infection (if more than one infection at play) or learns that an infection has been attempted and failed (if no extra infections at play)
Thug: survives two attempts, if tried during the same time period
Hunter: insta-kills two people on that same period
Executioner: sends two people to the gallows, instead of the one selected for lynching
Morpher: on day/night 1, option to pick a second role if first is already taken
Reverber: own vote counts 3 times
Rioter: riots 2 targets that day
Soother: sooths 2 targets that day
Spy: follows two roles the same night
Oracle: asks two questions on that same period
Seeker: follows two players the same night
Stretcher: Longer extension of deadline
Collapse: earlier contraction of deadline
Blocker: blocks two targets on that same period
Necromancer: revives two players in that same period
Die-hard: will survive lynching attempts the next two days
Judge: the pardoned player is safe for an extra consecutive lynching
Swapper: two swaps in that same period
Leech: can select a second leeching, but would lose the first one without being able to use it.
Scavenger: can select a second TARGET, but would lose the first POWER without being able to use it.
Smoker: covers two players
Meddler: covers two players
Maniac: gets two kills on that night
Bluff: bluffs two days in a row.
it's probably the most complex role in term of effects, because the effect is different depending on the target.
It is a very powerful role, but also risky one: it can be a tremendous help for the village, but if used improperly it could gift the game to the WW.
I also like the fact that it forces the target to spend their power, so it messes with other people's plans, and that there is a timing issue,: the more you wait, the more likely you used it properly, but also the more likely it gets wasted.
10. Amplifier - This player can enhance the activity of one player for the next applicable day or night-time period (not both).
The amplified player gets notified of the extra power.
It is a FORCED enhancement of the activity, not a second use. Thus, the target MUST use the power in that timeframe (or the very next one depending on the target power), although what they do with it is their choice. If the target’s power was already spent, nothing happens and the amplification is wasted.
the target players needs to use the amplified powers in one go (they can't wait for a result to use the double scan, for example)
Amplification does not apply to core WW powers such as night-time kills, infection or kamikaze kills. It could apply to a Maniac kill.
(Active, One-time use, Anytime, Dual-nature)
Examples: a Seer will get a double scan that night, a Guard gets double protection that night, the Hunter gets two kills (but they HAVE to be used at that time, or they are BOTH lost). If a rioter is targeted, the Rioter gets to riot two players, but s/he MUST use the power in the current/earliest vote period
I made a putative full list of possible effects, to simplify/unify interpretations and to try to make them balanced and consistent.
target role: amplified effect
Seer: scans two people the same night
Guard: protects two people the same night
Undertaker: scans two people the same night
Stalwart: completely immune to infection (if more than one infection at play) or learns that an infection has been attempted and failed (if no extra infections at play)
Thug: survives two attempts, if tried during the same time period
Hunter: insta-kills two people on that same period
Executioner: sends two people to the gallows, instead of the one selected for lynching
Morpher: on day/night 1, option to pick a second role if first is already taken
Reverber: own vote counts 3 times
Rioter: riots 2 targets that day
Soother: sooths 2 targets that day
Spy: follows two roles the same night
Oracle: asks two questions on that same period
Seeker: follows two players the same night
Stretcher: Longer extension of deadline
Collapse: earlier contraction of deadline
Blocker: blocks two targets on that same period
Necromancer: revives two players in that same period
Die-hard: will survive lynching attempts the next two days
Judge: the pardoned player is safe for an extra consecutive lynching
Swapper: two swaps in that same period
Leech: can select a second leeching, but would lose the first one without being able to use it.
Scavenger: can select a second TARGET, but would lose the first POWER without being able to use it.
Smoker: covers two players
Meddler: covers two players
Maniac: gets two kills on that night
Bluff: bluffs two days in a row.
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For the amplifier, we should be very clear if the target's actions must be simultaneous. An oracle who can ask a yes or no question with a follow up question could be devastating for the wolves.
i think all actions should be in 'one go'
for the oracle, they can ask two questions, but not wait for one answer first.
the hunter has two kill, but they can't wait to see the effect of the first kill, and so on.
also in case of the oracle, if the amplifier uses their power after the question is asked, but before the answer, the oracle gets another question before the answer is provided, but if they amplify after the answer has arrived, they wasted the amplification, because it would be directed at an 'empty' power
What about vote manipulation (e.g. Reverber)? does the vote count as activated at deadline or majority lock or once cast? So can the amplifier amplify a vote after it was bolded or before? Does he amplify the player, so the bolded vote is rather meaningless in case s/he switches afterwards?
Question clear?
here is my view of the matter:
the amplifier acts on the power of the target, not on its effect (in fact in most cases the Amplifier likely does not know for sure the role of the target).
if they target the Reverber, for example, this forces the Reverber to use their power that day (or the next day if the amplifcation occurs at night). that day the reverber's power is amplified. since by itself the reverberation already doubles the vote, when amplified it adds another +1 so the vote gets triplicated.
to see what the specific effect is, you have to go back to the workings of the targeted power, in this case the Reverber. the effect applies to the current/last valid vote the Reverber cast. so if the Reverber changes the vote (by bolding another player's name), then the next vote is the one triplicated.
if the amplification is used during the time the target power is being actively used, the amplification would work, depending on the specific power targeted.
For example, if the reverber used their power on day 2, and the amplifier targets them also on day 2, it will amplify them, because their power is 'sustained' till the end of the day (as it will affect the last valid vote, and they can change their vote till last minute). similar would be for other powers that last until the end of the deadline. in the case of the hunter, however, the window would be only between the 'shot' and posting of its effect by the GG if used privately. after that point the instakill is spent, and it cannot be amplified retroactively. if instakill was public, then it cannot be amplified after the shot.
as far as majority lock, it depends again on how the Reverber used their power. if privately it is triggered at deadline (so it does not affect majority lock) and it affects the last valid vote. same applies if the vote was amplified.
if reverbering was used publicly, the reverber's vote (again, this is applied to the last valid vote) does affect majority lock. for consistency i would say that the additional (amplified) vote does affect majority lock as well.
as a GG, the easiest way to communicate this while not disclosing too much, would be to post a current official count of the votes, which reflects the public changes, and includes the possible effect of an amplification.
I'd put the official tally out, but NOT explain why the count is different from what is apparent from the thread. that is the vilage's job to figure out
My understanding is that the 'Amplifier' knows the name of the person - but not necessarily the role that this person has - of the target; thus, the Amplifier can request the GG to 'amplify' - for example - 'Don't Panic' - not knowing what particular power that Don't Panic is actually wielding. (Hence, the effects of the amplification are unknown, although, if the amplifier lives long enough, s/he may have worked out a few names along with accompanying roles ..)
Yes, I agree. But it is one thing (or can be one thing, depends on how interpreted or played) to target in game (so it will always be a player as target since otherwise I would just say: "amplify the Seer. Thx." day1 and call it a day as opposed to how the then played power works as a game mechanic and targets/affects the power. But I think we mean basically the same thing.
One thing though DP: I may read this incorrect, then please excuse, but can your explanation of the Amplifier be read that the target must use their power? You wrote:
(...)Thus, the target MUST use the power in that timeframe (or the very next one depending on the target power), although what they do with it is their choice.(...)
What Power though? Amplification, right? So if the amplified Seer decides to lay back and do nothing at all, it's fine - s/he's not forced to use their amplified Seer role (bad example but I guess you know what I mean?)
Also, is voting (plain voting) considered an activity? I would say yes and the vote would count double. The amplified player has then to PM the gg which specific activity he wants to amplify (he could amplify his vote, or his Seer-techniques for example - not both, correct?) What happens if he doesn't specify this? It says it is forced upon the activities.
If you think this shouldn't be the case I would scratch activity in your explanation and use the wording power only.
- The amplified power/activity is ONLY the SPECIAL power/activity. A normal vote is not a special power/activity. Only the Rioter can decide to enhance another person's vote. the only way the Amplifier can affect voting, is if they target one of the players whose power affects voting.
- the amplifier ALWAYS amplifies a player. One cannot say "amplify the seer", they have to say "amplify player X". if they know the role of player X, that is fine
-the targeted player must use their special power (special activity). That is the power that is being amplified.
the reason for this is balance, and it is mainly directed at the one-off powers. It also adds importance at the timing of when the amplification is used, so it gives more relevance to the amplifier player, rather than just basically delegating the use to the person who is being amplified.
so if the seer is targeted, the power that gets amplified and must be used is Seance. the seer must give two names for that night, or lose the ability for that night. As you said, this is not a particularly good example, since there is basically no reasons for the seer not to want to check two people instead of one.
however, for other powers the amplification might not necessarily be welcome, or at least welcome at that time.
the hunter gets to use the instakill twice, but they have to do it right away, or they lose their power entirely (they retain the option of not using the power, at the cost of losing it)
the rioter might want to save the power for when they can control the result of a lynching, but now they have to use it right away -doubled- or lose it, and so on
- I edited the rule to clarify this aspect.
To be fair, you wrote activity (not special activity for example) in parts of your axplanation foor the Amplifier.
Not sure I can fully understand you:
the Seer doesn't use it: can see again next day as normal
Hunter doesn't use it: loses it completely
Did I miss a specification for this?
Not sure I can fully understand you:
the Seer doesn't use it: can see again next day as normal
Hunter doesn't use it: loses it completely
Did I miss a specification for this?
To be fair, you wrote activity (not special activity for example) in parts of your axplanation foor the Amplifier.
Not sure I can fully understand you:
the Seer doesn't use it: can see again next day as normal
Hunter doesn't use it: loses it completely
Did I miss a specification for this?
yes I did,
i apologize it wasn't well explained. i modified it now so hopefully it is clearer.
Btw, the same applies to the blocker, s/he can only block the special activity, not a vote. otherwise the blocker includes the soother and the amplifier includes the rioter.
the difference in loss would be if the power targeted is recurrent vs one shot
if it is one shot, it has to be used immediately. again this is to balance it , otherwise it would be too powerful.
if it is recurrent, (seer, undertaker, guard, spy, etc.), this is not very meaningful as they should already be using their power at every opportunity.
To be fair, you wrote activity (not special activity for example) in parts of your axplanation foor the Amplifier.
Not sure I can fully understand you:
the Seer doesn't use it: can see again next day as normal
Hunter doesn't use it: loses it completely
Did I miss a specification for this?
No. My understanding is that the power must be used at the time it is bestowed, or it goes to waste. The Hunter doesn't 'lose it completely'; it means that s/he will revert to his or her normal power if the amplification is not used.
As DP has noted, - there is a difference between powers that are 'once off' and recurrent powers, and this will have an effect on how the 'amplification' power gets used.
Other than that, the powers that are normally used each night, will continue to be used - it is just that for one night, the use of these powers will be doubled if that particular player happens to be the target of the Amplification Power.