# [WW] Scoreboard, Stats, and Rules

#### Don't panic

##### macrumors 603
Original poster
As suggested by Queen of Spades, here is a place to keep a running count of the WW games results and for basic stats about the games, rules and general guidelines, and links to ongoing and past games
it can also serve a go-to thread to discuss rules and other general [ww]-related stuff

Since we play games with different and changing rules and different number of players, it can be complex to use a good way to "keep score" in a fair way.

the way i will be using is as follows:

1. villagers get 1 point per game. +1 if they win, -1 if they lose.
2. wolves get points based on the villagers/wolves ratio. infected players count as wolves
example: if there are 12 players, of which 2 are wolves, the ratio is 5 (10/2). wolves get +5 if they win and -5 if they lose.
if it is 10/2 but the wolves infected one player, the ratio is 3 (9/3), wolves get +3 if they win and -3 if they lose​
3. a player does not need to be alive to score points

SCOREBOARD:

D1= lynched on day 1
N1= eaten on night 1
end= was present until the game-deciding event
surv= survived the game
inf= infected (or equivalent role)
guard=the village 'protector' role: guard, hunter or whatever s/he was called in that specific game

BASIC STATS:

13 games
5 wolves win
6 gamegods (raven-6, chrmjenkins-3, dontpanic-1, sythas-1, rick/qos-1, twietee=1)
35 different players
14 players played at least one third of the games (5/13)
2 players have perfect attendance records: plutonius (13 games), and ravenvii (7+6 as GG)
3.33: average game value

core players: (plutonius-13, moyank24-12, Queenofspades-12, scepticalscribe-12, tomorrow-12, twietee-11, koodauw-11, ricksnagwell-11, dontpanic-10, sythas-8 ravenvii-7, woodNUFC-7, techgod-6, chrmjenkins-5)

most games: plutonius, 13
most wins: moyank, 10 (W-L: 10-2, .833)
most points: moyank, 13
best 'core' record: moyank, .833 (W-: 8-1) *
...........................*several players have a perfect 1.0 record, but all with 3 games or less
..........................(aggie, fenris, appleguy, southerndad, costabunny, , jimN, mrkramer, rodimus)

most wolfish: 4 times Ricksnagwell (2-2), Plutonius (2-2)
most villagerish: 10 times Moyank (8-2), QoS (6-4), Scepticalscribe (5-5)
best wolfish record: dontpanic (2-0), Moyank (2-0)
best village record, Moyank (8-2) ravenvii, 4-1

best 'survivors' (including endgame): rick (7/10), twietee (7/11), moyank (7/11), QoS (6/11), plutonius (6/12)
most eliminated before day2: tomorrow (3/11: 1xD1, 2xN1)

CURRENT GAME: Knee-Deep in the Dead
GG: Twietee
type: multi-special
players: 19
WW: 3+1+1 (alpha, kami, normal, all with extra powers); infection and Morpher possibly in play
specials: everyone is special
Game value: 3.75
winner: Wolves

LAST/CURRENT TOURNEY: TBD

BALANCE GUIDELINES:

players..........wolves
8-10:............1 WW (alpha) + 1 infection [3-4 pt games]
11-15...........2 WW + infection; some/all get extra role [2.66-4 pt]
15-20...........3 WW+infection. some/all get extra role [2.75-4 pt]
20-25...........4 WW+infection. some/all get extra role [3-4 pt]

some possible balance tweaks:
- alpha and/or kami do not get extra roles (helps village)
- NW teams (helps village)
- some roles are excluded from NW (e.g, seer, guard) (helps WW)
- some powers or combination of powers are not made available to the WW (helps village)
example: WW can only have one out of: leech, necromancer, amplifier, maniac
- some powers or combination of powers are not made available to the village (helps WW)
example: WW can only have two out of: hunter, oracle, executioner, necromancer
- infection can also occur during the day (greatly helps WW)
- no infection at play (greatly helps village)

BASE RULES:

GAME INFOS:
Deadlines: Decided by the GameGod (GG).
A timeframeis usually provided at the beginning of each game.
It might or might not include MAJORITY LOCK, or other specific tie-breaking modes.
The DEFAULT tie-break is to lynch the player who first reached the tie, counting the valid votes at the deadline.
If a different mechanism is selceted, the GG will describe it at the beginning of the game. Both GG communications or gameplay can affect deadline, so stay tuned.
Night deadlines will also be established by the GG.

Please do not make any significant edits to posts. Never erase posts, Do not unbold old votes.
Please DO vote/participate. Going MIA is "a" strategy, but one the GG might frown upon. If you do so for an extended time, there might be consequences.

In-Game actions: if your power allows it, you can choose to use it publicly. To do so post your action in an ALL-BOLD post, where you describe your action and its target. The action is activated immediately, although the consequences might depend on other actions. For example a time-extension starts immediately and the player needs to indicate the new deadline in the post. An insta-shot is shot immediately, but the success of the kill is determined also by other factors (like protection), so the target is presumed dead, -and should not post- until the kill is confirmed, etc.

Dead players etiquette: usual. limited to 'color' posts, but they should not affect gameplay in any significant way. Please color them in ghost gray and try not to overwhelm the game with them.
Same is extended to "presumed dead" players (for example if majority-lock or a deadline has been reached, or if you have been insta-shot, then you should behave as if you were dead already).
keep in mind that due to some of the new roles and their possible interactions, "presumed dead" does not necessarily means "dead". A "presumed dead" should not post at all -even in ghostly gray- until the death is confirmed by the GG.

PMs. Only WWs and some special roles (like the NW) can communicate with one another.
Please send all night action PM timely. You CAN pre-send PMs to the GG describing the action, including using qualifiers (e.g.: if this happen I scan x).
ROLE DESCRIPTIONS
Every player in the game will have a special role or ability. Roles are randomly assigned and there are more role types than there are players, so some roles are not guaranteed to be in the game.
There are 5 categories of roles.

1. Village Core - These roles are always assigned and exclusive to villagers (good guys)
2. Village Exclusive - These roles can only be assigned to villagers (good guys) but are not guaranteed to be assigned.
3. General Pool - These roles can go to villagers (good guys) or werewolves (bad guys). They are not guaranteed to be assigned.
4. Werewolf Exclusive - These roles can only be assigned to werewolves (bad guys) but are not guaranteed to be assigned.
5. Werewolf Core - These roles are always assigned and exclusive to werewolves (bad guys)

Roles also have varying frequency, duration and nature (active vs. passive). These qualities are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Here are the types of roles:

1. Active - These roles require a direct action by the player (usually a PM to the GG). Example: Seer.
2. Passive - These roles are automatically performed without the player's input. Example: Die-hard.
3. One-time use - These roles can only be used once. Example: Amplifier
4. Recurring - These roles are used once every full game day cycle. Example: Guard.
5. Night-time - These roles can only be used at night. Example: Undertaker
6. Day-time - These roles can only be used in the daytime. Example: Soother
7. Anytime - These roles have no time restriction. Example: Leech
8. Private - These roles are only valid actions when PMed to the GM. Does not apply to passive roles. Example: Smoker.
9. Dual-nature - These roles can be used publicly or privately. When done publicly, their effect is immediate, if applicable. If performed privately, their effect takes place at the next day/night deadline, if applicable or when posted by the GG. Does not apply to passive roles. Example: Hunter
VARIANTS:
Some roles can be played in different ways. Some such common variants are indicated. Unless the GG indicates that the variant is in use, the "default" rule applies. this is also true for any other variations or tweaks the GG applies to any roles.
VILLAGE CORE:
1. Seer - This player can choose one other alive player to scan the role of, per night.
(Active, Night-time, Recurring, Private)

2. Guard - This player can choose one alive player to protect from death or infection (including self).
This protection extends into the following game day and protects from all types of death (infection) except lynching. The same player cannot be protected twice in a row
(Active, Night-time, Recurring, Private)

3. Undertaker - This player can choose one dead player to scan the role of, per night.
(Active, Night-time, Recurring, Private)

VILLAGE EXCLUSIVE:
1. Stalwart - This player is immune to one infection attempt by the werewolves.
(Passive, One-time use, Night-time, Automatic)

2. Thug - This player survives one death via any means except lynching.
(Passive, One-time use, Anytime, Automaitc)

3. Hunter - This player chooses one other player to kill instantly.
If the target is protected, or is the thug, the attack fails. When the kill is ordered privately, the hunter is not disclosed, nor there is certainty that the death is necessarily due to the hunter
(Active, One-time use, Anytime, Dual-Nature).

4. Executioner - This player chooses one other alive player to substitute for the lynching victim that day.
The executioner cannot save her/himself.
Variant a. The executioner CAN also save her/himself.
(Active, One-time use, Day-time, Dual-nature)

5. Morpher - This player chooses one role from the General Pool they would like to assume.
If that role is not assigned, they assume that role. If the role is assigned, the player can choose whether or not to assume the alignment of the other player (without being told what it is). For example, if that player is a villager (good guy), the Morpher is allowed to exchange PMs with that player and is a good player. If that player is a werewolf (bad guy), the Morpher is allowed to exchange PMs with all active werewolves and is a bad player. These choices must be made by the start of Day 2.
(Active, One-time use, Anytime, Private)

GENERAL POOL
1. Reverber - This player can once double their own vote for lynching.
If the reverbering is used publicly, the double vote counts for majority lock, but it does not affect thresholds. If the Reverber then changes their vote, the last valid vote is always the one doubled. Reverbering cannot be used to undo a majority AFTER it was reached in the thread.
If the reverbering is used privately, it will count twice ONLY at the deadline, when the adjusted COUNT is disclosed (not which specific vote was doubled, nor the reason it was doubled). Reverbering doubles whatever the last valid vote is, regardless of changes. If key to resolve ties, the timing in the thread of the valid doubled vote is what counts. Private reverbering does NOT affect majority lock, so it could go wasted if majority was reached in the thread
(Active, One-time use, Day-time, Dual-nature)

2. Rioter - This player can once double another player's vote for lynching.
If rioting is used publicly, the double vote counts for majority lock, but it does not affect thresholds. If the rioted player then changes their vote, the last valid vote is always the one doubled. Rioting cannot be used to undo a majority AFTER it was reached in the thread.
If rioting is used privately, it will count twice ONLY at the deadline, when the adjusted COUNT is disclosed (not which specific vote was doubled, nor the reason it was doubled). Rioting doubles the last valid vote by the rioted player, regardless of changes. If key to resolve ties, the timing in the thread of the valid doubled vote is what counts. Private rioting does NOT affect majority lock, so it could go wasted if majority was reached in the thread
(Active, One-time use, Day-time, Dual-nature)

3. Soother - This player can once block another player's vote for lynching.
If soothing is used publicly, the soothed vote -or any following vote by the soothed person-, does not count. This does not affect thresholds. Soothing cannot be used to undo a majority AFTER it was reached in the thread.
If soothing is used privately, the vote will be discounted ONLY at the deadline, when the adjusted COUNT is disclosed (not which specific vote was discounted, nor the reason for it). Soothing eliminates any vote by the soothed player, regardless of changes.
(Active, One-time use, Day-time, Dual-nature)

4. Spy - This player follows the target of a specific night-time use role.
Cannot follow the same role in consecutive nights.
(Active, Recurring, Night-time, Private)
Example: the spy selects to spy on the activity of the Seer, he/she will be told the target of the seer, but not the result of the scan or who did the scan.

5. Oracle - This player can ask 1 yes-or-no question.
Variant a. The Oracle is a village exclusive role.
(Active, One-time use, Anytime, Dual-nature)

6. Seeker - This player can identify the power being used on a specific player at night.
(Active, Recurring, Night-time, Private)
Example: the Seeker selects to follow Dontpanic; he/she will be informed of all activities targeting Dontpanic, but not who performed them.

7. Stretcher - This player can extend the lynching deadline by up to 12 hours (or max otherwise defined by the GG) anytime before it occurs
If stretching is used publicly, it is effective immediately and voids the majority lock for the rest of the day, until the new deadline established by the Stretcher. Majority lock cannot be overridden if it was reached before the use of the power.
If used privately, it works much in the same way: majority lock is disabled form the time of the PM was sent, so if reached it doesn't count. the GG will communicate the extended deadline as soon as possible.
(Active, One-time use, Day-time, Dual-nature)

8. Collapser - This player can shorten the lynching deadline by up to 12 hours (or otherwise defined by the GG) anytime before it occurs.
If collapsing is used publicly, the Collapser establishes in the thread the new deadline. Depending on the time remaining to the normal deadline, the Collapser could end the day instantly.
If used privately, the collapsing become effective at the earliest the moment the GG makes it public, with whatever vote situation is occurring then (NOT when the secret PM was sent).
(Active, One-time use, Day-time, Dual-nature)

9. Blocker - This player can block the special activity of one player for the next applicable day or night-time period (not both).
This does not apply to regular voting or to core WW powers such as night-time kills, infection or kamikaze kills (unless kami is an WW exclusive power, rather than WW core). it could apply to a Maniac kill.
(Active, One-time use, Anytime, Dual-nature)
Examples: a. if a Stretcher is expanding the deadline and removing the majority lock, the Blocker can make the extension collapse and the original deadline/majority lock is reinstated; b. when a soother is ‘silencing’ a player, if the blocker targets the soother, the mellowed player goes back to normal status and their vote counts as normal; c. if the power is used at night on player W, and they are the guard, their activity is ineffective, but they do not know it; d. if the Blocker target a player who turns out to be the Seer, the scan fails; e. if they target the Oracle before an answer is provided in the thread, the question goes unanswered, without explanations by the GG

10. Amplifier - This player can enhance the special power/activity of one player for the next applicable day or night-time period (not both).
The amplified player gets notified of the extra power.
Normal activities, such as regular voting, are not affected.
It is a FORCED enhancement of the special activity, not a second use. Thus, the target MUST use the power in that timeframe (or the very next one depending on the target power), although what they do with it is their choice. If the target’s power was already spent, nothing happens and the amplification is wasted.
the target players needs to use the amplified powers in one go (they can't wait for a result to use the double scan, for example)
Amplification does not apply to core WW powers such as night-time kills, infection or kamikaze kills. It could apply to a Maniac kill.
(Active, One-time use, Anytime, Dual-nature)
Examples: a Seer will get a double scan that night, a Guard gets double protection that night, the Hunter gets two kills (but they HAVE to be used at that time, or they are BOTH lost). If a rioter is targeted, the Rioter gets to riot two players, but s/he MUST use the power in the current/earliest vote period
more examples/discussion of the role are found below in the thread

11. Necromancer - This player can revive one dead player.
That player's power status returns to what it was just before death.
(Active, One-time use, Anytime, Dual-nature)

12. Die-hard - This player will survive one lynching attempt.
Nobody is lynched in their place
(Passive, One-time use, Day-time, Automatic)

13. Judge - This player can save another player from lynching.
No player is lynched that day to prevent redundancy with Executioner.
(Active, One-time use, Day-time, Dual-nature)

14. Swapper - This player may swap the powers between any other two living players.
If the swap is done privately, the swapped powers become available at the end of the current time-period. The GG informs the targets at the time of lynching or morning. if at night, the power available that night is still the old one (the target does not know it will be lost).
If swap is public, it is effective immediately. the players will have to wait for the GG to communicate them their new power.
Powers status is preserved (if they are spent, they stay spent). it doesn't apply to WW night killing, infection, or kamikaze killing. it does apply to Maniac killing.
(Active, One-time use, Anytime, Dual-nature)
example: the swap privately targets the seer and the hunter at night. the hunter had already used the instakill.
The seer still gets one more scan, then becomes the hunter, without instakill, in the morning. the hunter becomes the new seer from the next morning

15. Leech - This player may steal the power of another live player.
Leeching can only be performed privately. The leeched power becomes available at the end of the current time-period. The GG informs the target at the time of lynching or morning. if at night, the target still have their power available that last night (they do not know it will be lost).
Power use status is preserved. it doesn't apply to WW night killing, infection, or kamikaze killing. it does apply to maniac killing.
(Active, One-time use, Anytime, private)

16. Scavenger - This player may steal the power of a dead player.
Scavenging can only be performed privately. The scavenged power becomes available at the end of the current time-period. to be used in the next. The GG informs the target at the time of lynching or morning.
Power use status is preserved. it doesn't apply to WW night killing, infection, or kamikaze killing. it does apply to maniac killing.
(Active, One-time use, Anytime, Private)

WEREWOLVES EXCLUSIVE

1. Smoker - This werewolf may protect one other player from any night-time 'power' activities.
The protection is against all night 'powers' (scans, interference, etc.). However, the smoker does not protect against instakill not it can void guard protection
(Active, One-time use, Night-time, Private)
Example: the Smoker selects to ‘cover’ Dontpanic. if Dontpanic was the target of a seer scan, the scan fails, if he was the target of an amplification it fails. if he was protected by the guard, the protection stands. If he was targeted by instakill, the instakill is not blocked by the Smoker

2. Meddler - This werewolf may interfere with the special actions targeting another player.
This may result in fake scan results for the actions/status of another player (wolf or not), or in an alternative target being selected for the action targeting the protected player.
If the meddling is done during day time, it only works if done BEFORE an action (e.g. public instakill) or before an answer is provided (e.g. oracle question).
The Meddler CAN provide provide a specific preferred answer/target to an activity directed against the protected palyer. Otherwise, the GG randomly selects one (feasible) answer/target. If the Meddler choses to provide an answer it is only by type (scan vs target), not by specific action. That is, s/he cannot provide separate fake scan answers for a scan by the seer or spy, nor separate fake targets for hunter or amplifier. The meddler can exclude some specific roles (e.g.: "the scan result will not be the seer, the necromancer or the oracle").
(Active, One-time use, Any-time, Private)
Examples: the meddler selects to ‘cover’ Dontpanic. if Dontpanic was the target of night activities/scans, the scanners will receive wrong results; if there are multiple activities, they ALL result in incorrect information.
For example, if Dontpanic was the alpha wolf/rioter and was protected by the meddler, the meddler could directly provide the info given [e.g "if Dontpanic is scanned, he will result being the village hunter" or, "the target of a direct action will be Twietee instead"]. In absence of precise Meddler instruction, another random 'villager figure' picked form the entire villager pool (core, exclusive, general) irrespective of whether they are in play or not, would be the result of a scan provided by the GG. In case of an action (e.g amplification, block, instakill, etc), another random active player would be targeted instead by that action.

3. Maniac - This werewolf may choose one extra kill action or override an action protecting their target.
Normal protections apply. This is only effective at night.
(Active, One-time use, Night-time. private)

4. Bluff - This player submits a private vote that is different than their public vote.
Once enacted, the public vote from then on does not count, but the bluff can still ‘vote’ as usual in the thread. The bluff can change their secret vote in the same session, and the valid vote is the last one submitted in time, as per regular rules.
Neither the public vote, nor the secret vote count toward majority lock.
Variant a. The Bluff is a general pool role, instead of WW exclusive.
(Active, One-time use, Day-time, Private)
WEREWOLVES CORE

1. Alpha - This werewolf may select one other player to convert to a werewolf in the night-time period.
Normal protections apply. This is only effective at night.
In addition to their infection ability, the Alpha WW also may receive one of the 'regular' General Pool powers.
Variant a. Infection can be used at anytime (note: this means it is typically used towards the end of the game when the alpha is in danger. it also make villager much harder to clear. It is a major boost to the WW)
(Active, One-time use, Night-time, Private)

2. Kamikaze - This werewolf can kill a player of their choosing at the time of their death by lynching.
Normal protections apply.
In addition to their extra killing ability, the Kamikaze WW also may receive one of the 'regular' General Pool powers.
Variant a. The Kamikaze is a WW exclusive role, instead of WW core (without extra powers).
(Active, One-time use, day-time, Private)

OTHER:
NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH
(optional). Members of the NW can PM each other during the game. This ability does not substitute a role, but is present in addition to a role (unless otherwise specified by the GG). They are selected from the villagers at the beginning of the game. The GG may opt to exclude some roles from being part of the NW, not to overpower the village. The NW CAN be infiltrated by the WW through infection. A seer/undertaker scan will reveal membership of the NW
The basic NW is 2 members, however other options are possible (3, 2 teams of 2, 2 + one recruit) at the GG discretion

ORDER OF ROLE ASSIGNMENT
select Village Core players -> select WW Core players + their extra roles from General Pool -> select other initial WWs from General + WW Exclusive pools -> select remaining Villagers roles from General + Village Exclusive pools -> select NW from villagers

ORDER OF NIGHT ACTION RESOLUTION
All night actions are assumed to occur "simultaneously", and to be resolved at 'dawn'.
the result of scan will be communicated at dawn, along with the posting of the morning narration.
If for technical reasons the GG PMs the results early, it is implied that the receiver of the information will not make any use of it, in the thread or via PMs, before dawn.
To resolve conflicts, the GG will process night actions/orders in this general order:

actions that affect others: Blocker / Amplifier/ Smoker / Meddler / Hunter / Guard
WW kills and infections: Alpha, Maniac
Scans: Spy / Seer / Undertaker/ Seeker
action that change player's available powers: Swapper / Leech / Scavenger

however, the order is not rigid, and exceptions may be applied depending on specifics and context, at the discretion of the GG.
For some specific actions, the timing of the PM may be important.
any night order can be pre-arranged, with or without qualifiers.

some examples:

someone protected by the guard cannot be killed by a night kill.
if the guard is killed that night, than the protection is lost and the protected can be killed or infected that same night (by other means)
if the blocker was targeted by the WW, the block does not work, even if it occurs 'before'
if a blocker targets a guard the guard does not protect
if a meddler targets a blocker, the block affects a different player
if amplifier and blocker target the same player, the effect negate each other and that players keeps their normal activity
if a hunter and maniac target each other, they both die
if leech/swapper/scavenger are used at night, they occur "last" and players are informed of their changed powers at the morning deadline.
if the swapper or leecher target a player the same night that player gets killed, the swap/leech is successful

SUMMARY OF POWERS

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#### rick snagwell

##### macrumors 68040
great timing for ya!

#### Don't panic

##### macrumors 603
Original poster
great timing for ya!
it is always good timing for me
--------------------

I am moving the links to previous games and the individual games stats her, so i can use the OP for other stuff

Recent games:

Game:
GG:
type:
players:
WW:
specials:
Game value:
winner:

GG: Twietee
type: multi-special
players: 19
WW: 3+1+1 (alpha, kami, normal, all with extra powers); infection and Morpher possibly in play
specials: everyone is special
Game value: 3.75
winner: WW

GG: Ravenvii
type: simple
players: 12
WW: 2: basic WW, no infection
specials: seer, guard
Game value: 5
winner: WW

Game: Plains of Abraham
GG: Sythas
type: multi-special
players: 12
WW: 3: alpha (+infection), kami, all with extra powers
specials: everyone has a power
Game value: 3
winner: WW

Game: Zombies
GG: Chrmjenkins
type: multi-special
players: 15
WW: 4: alpha (+infection), kami, normal, all with extra powers
specials: everyone has a power
Game value: 2.75*
winner: village
*last wolf standing got detracted one less point, so the total is 3+3+3+2=11=villager number

Game: Heroes
GG: Chrmjenkins
type: multi-special
players: 16
WW: 4: alpha (+infection), kami, normal, all with extra powers
specials: everyone has a power
Game value: 3
winner: village

Game: Mistborn
GG: Don't Panic
type: multi-special
players: 18
WW: 3: alpha, kami, normal, all with extra powers. infection present but was not used
specials: everyone has a power
Game value: 5
winner: village

Game: Oregon Trail
GG: Rick Snagwell and Queen of Spades
type: simple
players: 12
WW: 3: alpha, normal (+infection)
specials: seer, guard, undertaker, NW
Game value: 3
winner: village

Game: Santa Clause
GG: Ravenvii
type: simple
players: 9
WW: 2: basic, no infection
specials: seer, guard, santa. special rules
Game value: 3.5
winner: village
*last wolf standing got detracted one less point, so the total is 4+3=7=villager number

Game: Speedy game
GG: Ravenvii
type: simple
players: 9
WW: 2: basic, no infection
specials: seer, guard. short days
Game value: 3.5 ->3*
winner: WW
*last villager standing got detracted one less point, so the total is 3+3=7-1
it would be better to give the extra point to one wolf, but which one?

Game: Game of Thrones
GG: Chrmjenkins
type: complex
players: 21
WW: 5: 4 initial WW + 1 added
specials: multiple powers, 8 paesants
Game value: 3.2*
winner: village
*first wolf captured, loses an extra point, so the total is 4+3+3+3+3=16

Game: Battlestar Galactica
GG: Ravenvii
type: complex
players: 15
WW: 4: 3 initial WW + 1 added
specials: multiple standard powers, 5 paesants
Game value: 2.75*
winner: village
*last wolf captured, loses an extra point, so the total is 3+3+3+2=11

Game: Thin's be stirrin' in Werewolville
GG: Ravenvii
type: Simple
players: 11
WW: 3: 3 initial, limited PMs
specials: telepathic seer, guard
Game value: 2.66*
winner: WW
*first wolf captured, gains one less point, so the total is 2+3+3=8

Game: in der woods
GG: Ravenvii
type: Simple
players: 12
WW: 3: 2 +infection (with possible double infection, unused)
specials: seer, guard
Game value: 3
winner: village

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##### macrumors 68030
as suggested by Queen of Spades, here is a place to keep a running count of the WW games results and for basic stats about the games, rules and general guidelines, and links to ongoing and past games
it can also serve a go-to thread to discuss rules and other general [ww]-related stuff

Since we play games with different and changing rules and different number of players, it can be complex to use a good way to "keep score" in a fair way.
I like it. I think it's a smart, straightforward way to get started. I would be interested in more complex scoring in the future.

great timing for ya!
it is always good timing for me
Ha ha, nice try. I'm assuming we start at 0.

#### Don't panic

##### macrumors 603
Original poster
I like it. I think it's a smart, straightforward way to get started. I would be interested in more complex scoring in the future.

Ha ha, nice try. I'm assuming we start at 0.
I saw that you were giving extra points to the seer, but i am not sure i would agree on that one.

we can start from 0, but i see no reason not to do a retrospective analysis.
it's unbiased, i think fun and we start off with some cool statistical factoids about the games.
you wouldn't be interested?

it is just work and not too much as that, i think i can easily squeeze it in my workflow, and mine the core of the the data in a couple of days. a nice break between experiments and grant writing

the basic fields i was going to track were (per player):

games played, W, L, W%, breakdown for games played as villager or wolf,
death stats: how frequently one is voted on D1, killed on N1 or makes it to the end of the game
roles, WW vs villager, seer, guard, infected.

the other roles are just too variable and would make thing complicated and make the data hard to read, but if anyone wants to tackle them, then be my guest.

as far as the point assignment, the proposed way tries to weigh in the variability, and the net of each game is always zero points. the + points are balanced to the - points

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##### macrumors 68030
I saw that you were giving extra points to the seer, but i am not sure i would agree on that one.

we can start from 0, but i see no reason not to do a retrospective analysis.
it's unbiased, i think fun and we start off with some cool statistical factoids about the games.
you wouldn't be interested?
Oh, you legitimately want to go back and pull old threads/stats for scores? I thought you were posting those as a guideline for how things would be scored. I don't have a problem with it, per se, but I was imagining this like a tournament with a defined set of time, and thus would want to start at 0.

I'm open either way, let's see what others think.

And for the record, I didn't develop the scoring system. I can't recall who did, as it was several years ago - I just continued it with my game. I do think there are areas where we could have slightly more complex scoring, though I support starting it simply so we can get some data.

#### Don't panic

##### macrumors 603
Original poster
Oh, you legitimately want to go back and pull old threads/stats for scores? I thought you were posting those as a guideline for how things would be scored. I don't have a problem with it, per se, but I was imagining this like a tournament with a defined set of time, and thus would want to start at 0.

I'm open either way, let's see what others think.

And for the record, I didn't develop the scoring system. I can't recall who did, as it was several years ago - I just continued it with my game. I do think there are areas where we could have slightly more complex scoring, though I support starting it simply so we can get some data.
i like the idea of a Tourney.
in that case obviously we would start from zero.

but i was seeing more like an open-ended project, just to keep track of stuff.
I am not sure how back i want to go, especially because at some point we hit the vampire phase, which complicates things significantly. so maybe i'll stop when we get there.
the two approaches are not mutually exclusive. we can have an "historical" scoreboard, which would also include the tourney.
the problem of a tourney is that it would work best with fixed rules and players, which we never keep

#### twietee

##### macrumors 603
agreed re more complex scoring when doing it within a tourney. Doesn't look that balanced right now (DPs version). For example kill a wolf +1pt. Eat a (core) special +1pt, win flawless +1 and so on.

... I was imagining this like a tournament with a defined set of time, and thus would want to start at 0.
What do you mean by defined set of time though? Defined number of games I would guess (say best of 5 sounds good although we haven't played that many lately). Or you really mean time as in speed up things? Not sure I like that since I see the score-thingy as completely additional and don't think I'd like it that much when heavily influencing the way we'd play. But dunno, you played one this way already? How did it fare? If everybody's cool with it so am I of course but I can imagine some issues that way.

#### Scepticalscribe

##### macrumors Sandy Bridge
agreed re more complex scoring when doing it within a tourney. Doesn't look that balanced right now (DPs version). For example kill a wolf +1pt. Eat a (core) special +1pt, win flawless +1 and so on.

What do you mean by defined set of time though? Defined number of games I would guess (say best of 5 sounds good although we haven't played that many lately). Or you really mean time as in speed up things? Not sure I like that since I see the score-thingy as completely additional and don't think I'd like it that much when influencing the way we'd play. But dunno, you played one this way already? How did it fare? If everybody's cool with it so am I of course but I can imagine some issues that way.
Would such a tourney be envisaged as eternally open-ended, or is the idea that it would be applied to a set series of games (say, for example, around five) as was the case previously?

#### twietee

##### macrumors 603
Would such a tourney be envisaged as eternally open-ended, or is the idea that it would be applied to a set series of games (say, for example, around five) as was the case previously?
I'd say limited amount of games.

As I understood it there were multipe tourneys held already so one could just create a point system (1st place: 10pts, 2nd: 8pts 3rd: 6pts for example) and could create a overall, 'legendary' scoreboard besides.

#### Sythas

##### macrumors 6502a
I'm not sure about the points "variability" for the wolf.

10 villagers 2 wolfs : it's "relatively" easy for a wolf to hide in the crowd, but again more scans against them.
9 villagers 3 wolfs : Harder to hide, faster to finish the game but need to coordinate actions better and faster.

I would keep the point equals every game for the wolfs.

Maybe awards a point for a villagers lynched/killed the first day

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And a point for new players, to encourage them to join us.

#### twietee

##### macrumors 603
Btw. I'd run the next one if no one objects. So let me know if the rules setup should be determined beforehand with a Tourney in mind.

Thouhgt I'd start sign-ins tomorrow or Friday so maybe we can start next week.

#### Don't panic

##### macrumors 603
Original poster
I'm not sure about the points "variability" for the wolf.

10 villagers 2 wolfs : it's "relatively" easy for a wolf to hide in the crowd, but again more scans against them.
9 villagers 3 wolfs : Harder to hide, faster to finish the game but need to coordinate actions better and faster.

I would keep the point equals every game for the wolfs.

Maybe awards a point for a villagers lynched/killed the first day

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And a point for new players, to encourage them to join us.

the higher the ratio between wolves and villagers, the hardest it is for wolves.
it is a LOT harder for wolves 2 vs 10 than 3 vs 9. Of course a big discriminant is if infection is at play, since it is the best weapon at the WW's disposal.

in general, the problem that i see with complex points systems, especially if the reward/punish individuals, is that in the long run they would affect the specific games and how they are played, as players would act in their own best interest (in terms of points) rather than their current 'team'.

i think it is important that the 'net' of each game is zero points for a general board, while if we have short bursts of coordinated games for mini-tournaments, then more complex rules are fine

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Btw. I'd run the next one if no one objects. So let me know if the rules setup should be determined beforehand with a Tourney in mind.

Thouhgt I'd start sign-ins tomorrow or Friday so maybe we can start next week.
go for it.

I highly recommend that you use to the multi-special format, which i think is a lot more fun

also please allow some time in the thread before beginning the actual to discuss balancing of teams

#### twietee

##### macrumors 603
in general, the problem that i see with complex points systems, especially if the reward/punish individuals, is that in the long run they would affect the specific games and how they are played, as players would act in their own best interest (in terms of points) rather than their current 'team'.
I thought points would ALWAYS be distributed regarding teams and not individuals (only regarding the outcome, doesn't matter if the individual survives or not). If the latter would be the case I'm strongly objecting. Should always be a team approch and teamwork should rather be beneficial than handicapped.

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I highly recommend that you use to the multi-special format, which i think is a lot more fun

also please allow some time in the thread before beginning the actual to discuss balancing of teams
Yes wanted to do that (I call them modern opposed to classic). Isn't there a rules thread somewhere? I might dig that up so stuff like setup etc can be discussed there. I'd like the game-thread to be as minimal as possible so eventually game related posts start at page 1 at best. Better to play when via mobile and it's boring to scroll past 2-3 pages until the real stuff begins when re-reading the thread for the umpteenth time.

#### Don't panic

##### macrumors 603
Original poster
I thought points would ALWAYS be distributed regarding teams and not individuals (only regarding the outcome, doesn't matter if the individual survives or not). If the latter would be the case I'm strongly objecting. Should always be a team approch and teamwork should rather be beneficial than handicapped.
i agree. my concern would be that situations might arise where there is a conflict of interest between ideal performance within a specific game and behavior that maximizes a desired outcome on the board.

however, this could be acceptable on a short tournament, as would be understood that the goal is not to win the game, but to win the tournament

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I thought points would ALWAYS be distributed regarding teams and not individuals (only regarding the outcome, doesn't matter if the individual survives or not). If the latter would be the case I'm strongly objecting. Should always be a team approch and teamwork should rather be beneficial than handicapped.

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Yes wanted to do that (I call them modern opposed to classic). Isn't there a rules thread somewhere? I might dig that up so stuff like setup etc can be discussed there. I'd like the game-thread to be as minimal as possible so eventually game related posts start at page 1 at best. Better to play when via mobile and it's boring to scroll past 2-3 pages until the real stuff begins when re-reading the thread for the umpteenth time.
yeah, i thought this could act also as a place to discuss rules and balancing.
i was eventually going to post, cure and maintain the various general rules 'sets' in here so we have a go-to place, but i didn't think we were going to start so early, so I am not sure i have time to do that today

#### twietee

##### macrumors 603
yeah, i thought this could act also as a place to discuss rules and balancing.
i was eventually going to post, cure and maintain the various general rules 'sets' in here so we have a go-to place, but i didn't think we were going to start so early, so I am not sure i have time to do that today
What? No rush, I can wait til Tuesday..

But I'd start with sign-ups rather early (next week? I don't really care) since they can take a while. And as far I know, personal experience and all, folks don't read the rules anyway pre Day2 or 3.

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#### Don't panic

##### macrumors 603
Original poster
What? No rush, I can wait til Tuesday..

But I'd start with sign-ups rather early (next week? I don't really care) since they can take a while. And as far I know, personal experience and all, folks don't read the rules anyway pre Day2 or 3.
do you already have a theme?

#### twietee

##### macrumors 603
do you already have a theme?
Yes. Do you want to discuss the theme as well?

It's not abou tBlade Runner so no worries. The narrations will be a problem but I have means of cheating..don't expect QoS or chrmjenkins level of AAA entertainment though.

#### Don't panic

##### macrumors 603
Original poster
Yes. Do you want to discuss the theme as well?

It's not abou tBlade Runner so no worries. The narrations will be a problem but I have means of cheating..don't expect QoS or chrmjenkins level of AAA entertainment though.
nope, just curious
and you can do the Blade Runner one if you want! Unless Melrose calls digs on running it

#### Don't panic

##### macrumors 603
Original poster
i updated the first post with an attached table with the stats of the last 5 games, will extend to the last 10 (all those linked) when i manage to, probably tonight

#### Plutonius

##### macrumors 604
Btw. I'd run the next one if no one objects. So let me know if the rules setup should be determined beforehand with a Tourney in mind.

Thouhgt I'd start sign-ins tomorrow or Friday so maybe we can start next week.
I'll object only because we can't kill you in the game if you are running it .

#### twietee

##### macrumors 603
the player with the most points is Twietee!

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I'll object only because we can't kill you in the game if you are running it .

No wonder you have only -3pts, son.

#### Don't panic

##### macrumors 603
Original poster
i am not done with the analysis, but i think i pulled out all the games from the last 2 years and i think i will stop there.
anyone else wants to go further back, i will then include the data into "the Board"
if i missed games from 2013-2014, post a link, i will include those.

there have been 12 games that i could find.

some initial general stats:

Gamegods: Ravenvii (6), Chrmjenkins (3), rick/QOS (1), dontpanic (1), Sythas (1).

Wolves won 4/12 games

Average Game Value: 3.3, which sounds about right in terms of villager/wolves ratio​

#### Melrose

##### Suspended
nope, just curious
and you can do the Blade Runner one if you want! Unless Melrose calls digs on running it
Digs, maybe. Not dibs. Have at it.

#### Don't panic

##### macrumors 603
Original poster
Digs, maybe. Not dibs. Have at it.
uops
bloody iphone
well, it could have been worse