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WWDC Coming...
- Thread starter arn
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For grins, who here is actually going to be at WWDC?
I was just thinking: if there's no QTTV stream of the keynote (since it's a paid admission-type thing), are there going to be people there that will post whatever happens to sites such as this/other rumor sites?
Wait, never mind. If they announce anything that will be big to the consumer marketplace, it'll make its way to the media somehow...somehow I had this strange momentary impression that whatever came out of WWDC pretty much stayed among developers.
I was just thinking: if there's no QTTV stream of the keynote (since it's a paid admission-type thing), are there going to be people there that will post whatever happens to sites such as this/other rumor sites?
Wait, never mind. If they announce anything that will be big to the consumer marketplace, it'll make its way to the media somehow...somehow I had this strange momentary impression that whatever came out of WWDC pretty much stayed among developers.
Re: PPC970 at WWDC 2004?
Overly pessimistic. As of Oct of 2002 IBM stated in docs from the Microprocessor that "Volume" production of PPC 970s will commence 2H 2003. It's altogether likely that IBM was able to beat these estimates. Fabbing at .13um is a piece of cake for the Fishkill Foundry. I believe Apple could easily announce Machines in June for preorder and shipment in August.
Arstechnica debunked nothing. They explained the processor in more detail but none of us knows how Altivec will funtion with 4x the bandwidth available with the 970s FSB. I'm afraid this change in hardware is going to be a little too hard to accurately predict the speed.
That's too many Models. Apple must remain committed to shipping Dual Processor systems. 3-4 years ago they announced that Dual was the future of Powermacs. They must keep this intact. The OS is optimized as well as many third party apps. If IBM's yields are extremely high on the 970s then I expect the 970s to be cheaper overall than G4s. Just imagine how much Apple is paying for the 1.42Ghz .18um G4s. Plus they STILL need to shell out for L3 cache as well. IBM moves to 300mm Wafers and the price drops even more per chip. I say 970s at current pricing Dual Configs on Midrange and High End.
That depends. If Apple does as you believe and ships Uniprocessor systems then the Powermacs won't be setting any new benchmarks. However if you are incorrect and they ship Dual configs then yes we will have faster machines that should outperform P4s. Prescott will probably exceed 1200/1200 specint and specFP plus use hyperthreading but I like a dual 1.8 system to provide 1900/2200 specint SpecFP combined. That's a smokin' system.
Overly pessimistic. As of Oct of 2002 IBM stated in docs from the Microprocessor that "Volume" production of PPC 970s will commence 2H 2003. It's altogether likely that IBM was able to beat these estimates. Fabbing at .13um is a piece of cake for the Fishkill Foundry. I believe Apple could easily announce Machines in June for preorder and shipment in August.
Arstechnica debunked nothing. They explained the processor in more detail but none of us knows how Altivec will funtion with 4x the bandwidth available with the 970s FSB. I'm afraid this change in hardware is going to be a little too hard to accurately predict the speed.
That's too many Models. Apple must remain committed to shipping Dual Processor systems. 3-4 years ago they announced that Dual was the future of Powermacs. They must keep this intact. The OS is optimized as well as many third party apps. If IBM's yields are extremely high on the 970s then I expect the 970s to be cheaper overall than G4s. Just imagine how much Apple is paying for the 1.42Ghz .18um G4s. Plus they STILL need to shell out for L3 cache as well. IBM moves to 300mm Wafers and the price drops even more per chip. I say 970s at current pricing Dual Configs on Midrange and High End.
That depends. If Apple does as you believe and ships Uniprocessor systems then the Powermacs won't be setting any new benchmarks. However if you are incorrect and they ship Dual configs then yes we will have faster machines that should outperform P4s. Prescott will probably exceed 1200/1200 specint and specFP plus use hyperthreading but I like a dual 1.8 system to provide 1900/2200 specint SpecFP combined. That's a smokin' system.
Re: PPC970 at WWDC 2004?
They could face overheating problems if they try to stick a high frequency chip inside. For this same reason the current Xserve runs only at 1.33 GHz, the bigger enclosure of the Power Mac allows better cooling. I would not be surprised if the the high-end 970 processors appear only in Apple boxes.
This is an IBM blade:
They could face overheating problems if they try to stick a high frequency chip inside. For this same reason the current Xserve runs only at 1.33 GHz, the bigger enclosure of the Power Mac allows better cooling. I would not be surprised if the the high-end 970 processors appear only in Apple boxes.
Re: Re: Re: Re: No "New" PowerMacs Coming At WWDC
...and if they release a gaming console they will call it xbox, right ?
Is anybody else getting tired of the whole 'X' thing, or is it just me ? Common, give me a Z ! Zmac ! Zbook !Give me zee power !
Originally posted by Bengt77
I never liked the capital 'X' and lowercase 'serve' name-parts of the Xserve; think they should have named it xServe. Then, the xMac name would make sense (note that it sounds like Axe Mac: the Mac that'll finally take good care
...and if they release a gaming console they will call it xbox, right ?
Is anybody else getting tired of the whole 'X' thing, or is it just me ? Common, give me a Z ! Zmac ! Zbook !Give me zee power !
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No "New" PowerMacs Coming At WWDC
I have just one thing to say to this (and you're going to groan...):
Why?
Originally posted by etoiles
...and if they release a gaming console they will call it xbox, right ?
Is anybody else getting tired of the whole 'X' thing, or is it just me ? Common, give me a Z ! Zmac ! Zbook !Give me zee power !
I have just one thing to say to this (and you're going to groan...):
Why?
Re: Re: PPC970 at WWDC 2004?
I realize that there are form factor heat issues. But, we really don't know how that's going to come into play with the 970. We have no firm numbers on how hot these chips will run (other than to say that they are cooler than the current crop of G4s).
Originally posted by mathiasr
This is an IBM blade:
They could face overheating problems if they try to stick a high frequency chip inside. For this same reason the current Xserve runs only at 1.33 GHz, the bigger enclosure of the Power Mac allows better cooling. I would not be surprised if the the high-end 970 processors appear only in Apple boxes.
I realize that there are form factor heat issues. But, we really don't know how that's going to come into play with the 970. We have no firm numbers on how hot these chips will run (other than to say that they are cooler than the current crop of G4s).
Re: Re: PPC970 at WWDC 2004?
Yes, but those things are run in rooms with 55 degree temperatures and tremendous air flow.
Originally posted by mathiasr
This is an IBM blade:
They could face overheating problems if they try to stick a high frequency chip inside. For this same reason the current Xserve runs only at 1.33 GHz, the bigger enclosure of the Power Mac allows better cooling. I would not be surprised if the the high-end 970 processors appear only in Apple boxes.
Yes, but those things are run in rooms with 55 degree temperatures and tremendous air flow.
Re: Re: Re: PPC970 at WWDC 2004?
That's what I loved about working in a scanner room for a few months, I could always wear my sweatshirts in there. And then everyone who came in to pester us would be all freezing
Right, I think that's what he was saying.
That's what I loved about working in a scanner room for a few months, I could always wear my sweatshirts in there. And then everyone who came in to pester us would be all freezing
The pessimist -- maybe
If I seem a bit pessimistic about the recent PPC970 rumors I think it is only fair to point out that some of the optimists may be overlooking an important issue concerning the performance of any PPC970-based Mac. What makes the optimists think that Apple will be able to produce a motherboard and chipset architecture that will take FULL advantage of the PPC970? When these Macs ship I suspect that as a SYSTEM they will perform somewhat below IBM's raw estimates for the PPC970 itself. No, I'm not saying that Apple can't do good work, but the first of anything is seldom as good as it could be.
In any case, I think that the PPC970 ship date and performance rumors need to be taken will a great deal of skepticism. I would go as far as saying that there is absolutely no chance that they will be introduced at this year's WWDC. And, of course, that's a win-win attitude because I'm either going to be proven right (no PPC970 at WWDC) or in just over one month we're going to have one of the most important product announcements in the history of the Macintosh.
If I seem a bit pessimistic about the recent PPC970 rumors I think it is only fair to point out that some of the optimists may be overlooking an important issue concerning the performance of any PPC970-based Mac. What makes the optimists think that Apple will be able to produce a motherboard and chipset architecture that will take FULL advantage of the PPC970? When these Macs ship I suspect that as a SYSTEM they will perform somewhat below IBM's raw estimates for the PPC970 itself. No, I'm not saying that Apple can't do good work, but the first of anything is seldom as good as it could be.
In any case, I think that the PPC970 ship date and performance rumors need to be taken will a great deal of skepticism. I would go as far as saying that there is absolutely no chance that they will be introduced at this year's WWDC. And, of course, that's a win-win attitude because I'm either going to be proven right (no PPC970 at WWDC) or in just over one month we're going to have one of the most important product announcements in the history of the Macintosh.
Re: The pessimist -- maybe
Skepticism is one thing, but this...
seems a bit extreme. Absolutely no chance? I'd say that's as irrational as saying that it is assured that they will be released...
Skepticism is one thing, but this...
seems a bit extreme. Absolutely no chance? I'd say that's as irrational as saying that it is assured that they will be released...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No "New" PowerMacs Coming At WWDC
why am I tired of the X ? Well, look around you: the x is everywhere. Plus, I think 'extreme' and 'experience' is as cheesy in a product description as 'new and improved formula'. I know OS X comes from 10, but not only: see AirportExtreme, QuartzExtreme...
I am probably overreacting
But remember, there is already products called xbox, xstation, xscale etc. so using the x might also be confusing in terms of marketing. Although they already started using it for the Xserve...oh well.
Now Blade, that is a cool name for a server. Or what SGI uses for their workstations: O2, Fuel, Octane (or before that: Indigo, Crimson, Onyx...). Something with character.
Actually, I am just focusing on meaningless things like naming, because I am afraid to speculate (and be disapointed) on the actual products. I am not a hero, I know
why am I tired of the X ? Well, look around you: the x is everywhere. Plus, I think 'extreme' and 'experience' is as cheesy in a product description as 'new and improved formula'. I know OS X comes from 10, but not only: see AirportExtreme, QuartzExtreme...
I am probably overreacting
But remember, there is already products called xbox, xstation, xscale etc. so using the x might also be confusing in terms of marketing. Although they already started using it for the Xserve...oh well.
Now Blade, that is a cool name for a server. Or what SGI uses for their workstations: O2, Fuel, Octane (or before that: Indigo, Crimson, Onyx...). Something with character.
Actually, I am just focusing on meaningless things like naming, because I am afraid to speculate (and be disapointed) on the actual products. I am not a hero, I know
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No "New" PowerMacs Coming At WWDC
I think your right about the names. Remember, naming is a cornerstone of Apple's product strategy. How many i-whatevers came out after they introduced the imac? Lots. Steve's Apple is well known for coming up with identifiable and, for lack of a better word, cool names. But, I'm going to go on the record here and say that we will probably not see a full 970 system, but it wouldn't hurt if Steve acknowledged that Apple is looking at some new hardware.
Originally posted by etoiles
...Actually, I am just focusing on meaningless things like naming, because I am afraid to speculate (and be disapointed) on the actual products. I am not a hero, I know
I think your right about the names. Remember, naming is a cornerstone of Apple's product strategy. How many i-whatevers came out after they introduced the imac? Lots. Steve's Apple is well known for coming up with identifiable and, for lack of a better word, cool names. But, I'm going to go on the record here and say that we will probably not see a full 970 system, but it wouldn't hurt if Steve acknowledged that Apple is looking at some new hardware.
Why do people spout opinions without checking the facts?
Well, I've got a bunch of those with dual 2.8GHz Xeon chips. This seems to blow that argument right out of the water!
If you'd check the docs (ftp://ftp.pc.ibm.com/pub/pccbbs/pc_servers_pdf/59p6546.pdf) you'd see that the BladeCenter is rated at 35 degrees at up to 914m altitude (that's 95F/3000ft for you backwards folks). No need for a refrigerator to put 78GHz of Xeon power in a 7U system.
Come on people, open your eyes to what's available outside of Cupertino!
Well, I've got a bunch of those with dual 2.8GHz Xeon chips. This seems to blow that argument right out of the water!
If you'd check the docs (ftp://ftp.pc.ibm.com/pub/pccbbs/pc_servers_pdf/59p6546.pdf) you'd see that the BladeCenter is rated at 35 degrees at up to 914m altitude (that's 95F/3000ft for you backwards folks). No need for a refrigerator to put 78GHz of Xeon power in a 7U system.
Come on people, open your eyes to what's available outside of Cupertino!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No "New" PowerMacs Coming At WWDC
Okay, I guess I was too cryptic. I'll try again.
If you're tired of ex, why zee?
Okay, I guess I was too cryptic. I'll try again.
If you're tired of ex, why zee?
Re: Re: The pessimist -- maybe
Yes, but the problem with maybe this and maybe that is that you really aren't saying much of anything. I'm willing to go on record (for what it's worth) as saying that there will be no PPC970 introduction at WWDC. By "introduction" I'm talking about an actual product demo followed by a reasonable number of shipments within 30 days of WWDC. If I'm wrong then I'll be wrong. However, if I said that there was little chance of an introduction and then they are introduced what does that mean? Was I 50% wrong, 70% wrong, mostly correct if they don't ship until after July 15? If we're going to make predictions then we might as well be bold.
So, what I'm saying is no PPC970-based Macs until at least LATE summer. No significant change in the price points over what we have today ($1500 to $2700 with ultimate well over $3000). And a likelihood of more single processor configurations replacing the existing dual G4s. That doesn't mean more models, I'm just saying that I expect that a single processor PPC970 will replace one of the configurations that is currently occupied by dual G4s.
Why will Apple move to more single processor configurations? They'll do it to maintain profit margins and to set the tone for positioning the PPC970 as a direct competitor to single processor WINTEL systems. It will also give them a buffer in case initial supplies of the PPC970 become tight. We'll see multi-processor PPC970 systems at the very high-end and in Xserves and I expect as the months and years go by we'll see more of a return to dual processor configurations, but as a general business model I think Apple would like to return to single-processor systems -- at least during the initial transition. Save the dual-970s for when and where they will really be needed.
Yes, but the problem with maybe this and maybe that is that you really aren't saying much of anything. I'm willing to go on record (for what it's worth) as saying that there will be no PPC970 introduction at WWDC. By "introduction" I'm talking about an actual product demo followed by a reasonable number of shipments within 30 days of WWDC. If I'm wrong then I'll be wrong. However, if I said that there was little chance of an introduction and then they are introduced what does that mean? Was I 50% wrong, 70% wrong, mostly correct if they don't ship until after July 15? If we're going to make predictions then we might as well be bold.
So, what I'm saying is no PPC970-based Macs until at least LATE summer. No significant change in the price points over what we have today ($1500 to $2700 with ultimate well over $3000). And a likelihood of more single processor configurations replacing the existing dual G4s. That doesn't mean more models, I'm just saying that I expect that a single processor PPC970 will replace one of the configurations that is currently occupied by dual G4s.
Why will Apple move to more single processor configurations? They'll do it to maintain profit margins and to set the tone for positioning the PPC970 as a direct competitor to single processor WINTEL systems. It will also give them a buffer in case initial supplies of the PPC970 become tight. We'll see multi-processor PPC970 systems at the very high-end and in Xserves and I expect as the months and years go by we'll see more of a return to dual processor configurations, but as a general business model I think Apple would like to return to single-processor systems -- at least during the initial transition. Save the dual-970s for when and where they will really be needed.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No "New" PowerMacs Coming At WWDC
I was not serious, just trying to be funny saying "give me zee power !" with a German accent...
Oh well, either the accent doesn't come accross too well or I am really trying too hard
I was not serious, just trying to be funny saying "give me zee power !" with a German accent...
Oh well, either the accent doesn't come accross too well or I am really trying too hard
Re: Re: Re: The pessimist -- maybe
I guess I take the stance of trying to avoid being wrong. Maybe it's the scientist in me. There's insufficient data to make an accurate prediction at this time.
If I wanted to be bold, I'd rather predict something I'd like to be right about than something I'd like to be wrong about. So I'd predict that we will see 970 based Macs at the WWDC.
I guess I take the stance of trying to avoid being wrong. Maybe it's the scientist in me. There's insufficient data to make an accurate prediction at this time.
If I wanted to be bold, I'd rather predict something I'd like to be right about than something I'd like to be wrong about. So I'd predict that we will see 970 based Macs at the WWDC.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No "New" PowerMacs Coming At WWDC
Yes your implied accent came across just fine. My joke is still getting lost, though. Oh well. I give up...
Originally posted by etoiles
I was not serious, just trying to be funny saying "give me zee power !" with a German accent...
Oh well, either the accent doesn't come accross too well or I am really trying too hard
Yes your implied accent came across just fine. My joke is still getting lost, though. Oh well. I give up...
Exactly.
This is why it will be all about the price point. The dual 970 configurations will not be much faster than the dual Xeon systems available today, if at all (estimating from the SPEC-benchs here).
Especially in the world of blade servers, Apple will need highly competitive pricing just to be taken serious. These folks are really hard to convince.
when will the ppc 970 be in our computers?
i have read a whole lot on the subject, but as every rumor monger knows; we'll just have to wait & see, every opinion is worth as much as the next; wich doesn't rule out interesting discussions however...
just had to post my best guess; ppc 970 will ship with the release of Panther
so, does anybody know something more than the fact thet each attandee at wwdc will recieve a pre-release?
i have read a whole lot on the subject, but as every rumor monger knows; we'll just have to wait & see, every opinion is worth as much as the next; wich doesn't rule out interesting discussions however...
just had to post my best guess; ppc 970 will ship with the release of Panther
so, does anybody know something more than the fact thet each attandee at wwdc will recieve a pre-release?
I would but PowerBox in the same place as the PowerDolphin. Or put the two together...
I'm sorry. I just had to.
MUWAHAHAHAHAHA! I laugh at my own jokes...
I'm sorry. I just had to
.MUWAHAHAHAHAHA! I laugh at my own jokes...