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I'm am definetely loving all this MobileMe integration! Keep it coming!!!!

i love the integration of mobile me as well. now if it would work reliably and timely it would be really great. but the email is spotty with sometimes hours delay. checking my email takes sometimes 5 minutes till it updates (what about push? works in 1 out of 5 mails. great!) although internet access is fast. so its not ATT, its apples mobile me.

i'm already afraid of how long it will take to access the idisk. it's unbearably slow on my computer although internet is blazing fast. so again its not comcast, its apples mobile me.

did i sync safari bookmarks to my phone? ah yes, that works once every three month. good that i surf always the same sites so not much change in bookmarks anyway.

i'm looking into what google can do for me................
 
ZFS is opensource, Oracle's acquisition of SUN has nothing to do with the status of ZFS in OSXland. If anything, rather that looking for exoteric explanations and whatnots... Occam's razor would dictate that it is just a simple case of Apple engineers dropping the ball regarding filesystem technology.

ZFS is still copyrighted by Sun and if acquisition completes by Oracle. Oracle can do whatever it wants to do. That includes taking Solaris and ZFS private again. The only thing folks will access to at that point is the "old" version. At that point wouldn't be surprising to see Apple walk away from it. There are going to be enough internal pressures inside of Apple coming from HFS+ that would be a huge momentum killer. ZFS is going to need to have lots of positive momemtum for Apple to commit to a switch. If there is no other major corporate dev team backing the "old, free, fork" that's a huge loss.

That said. Yes getting this to work is hard and not something to rush out the door. If ZFS chatter starts to shine more after the doubts of acquisition clear it may be prudent for Apple to leverage it for more positive positioning for Mac OSX too. Right now trying to position Snow Leopard as "just" a better Leopard. (Am sure they will want to go back to the $129 pricing for the next upgrade after. All the more reason to hold ZFS back now.)


Yes, Apple like any other corporation in the world can screw up sometimes. Some Apple fans think that recognize that fact would tantamount to a world destroying singularity... or something.

It is a huge stretch to say Apple screwed up. Removing something that isn't ready for prime time is far from making a mistake. In fact, that is the correct thing to do. Too many software companies ship crap that isn't ready just to meant a purely marketing/money deadine (<cough>Vista</cough> ). Almost always that is a painful end user experience. Sometimes development projects take substantially longer than you think they will. Especially, when trying to jam something that was meant to be imbedded into Solaris into MacOS X. ( the BSD ZFS effort also has holes relative to the primarily line of development.)

In so far as SL is a stability release if had to let ZFS slip; what is wrong with that?
 
ummm...

What's the big deal, since, as others have said, there are lots of Apps that let access iDisk and other webDav servers.

Some even let you print them to a shared printer on the wifi network

The question is why has it taken so long for Apple to do this, it should have been done months ago.

A bit like Voice Recorder (umm how may of these Apps are there? >100?
Voice Control on the 3GS. Google's App does this (I'm sure it could control the iPod if Apple would let them).

Sure 3.0 etc is improving the phone, but these are things that needed, so I refuse to pay homage to Apple for this.

I’m getting a little sick of Apple’s propaganda about all these new advanced features they keep adding.

Yes I like the GI on the iPhone, and yes I like OSX, but it’s Apple’s job to constantly improve.
 
To help clarify matters: ZFS is already available for Leopard in a limited sense. The "driver" for ZFS in Leopard is read-only.

I'm sad to see that ZFS has been more or less pulled but I'd much rather see them get it right.
 
I have quite a large library as well. I've got two drives set up (1 TB each) as RAID mirrors, auto-rebuild, and a separate, much smaller drive for uh . . . "large downloads". Seems convenient enough. Also have anther drive for Time Machine.

How does ZFS improve on this?

ZFS has Raidz. (similar to RAID 5 but without the transaction parity failure mode problems) This would allow you to store you media over 3 smaller disk in a more space efficient fashion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_RAID_levels#RAID_5). Your RAID mirrors have to be exactly same size disks. ZFS doesn't (if recall correctly). You can incrementally add one more disk with Raidz and get more storage whereas mirror requires add two.

In a failure mode in a mirror until you have reduplicated all the data on the surviving mirrored drive you are one disk failure away from loss of data.
The larger the drives you use to mirror the longer that restore window is.
Most likely you can recover from the TB drive before a another failure but this is a case where biggest isn't always better. As the largest drives get bigger this becomes more of an issue if used.

ZFS goes out and does check to see if your data had gone silently corrupted for you (and if possible correct it). The longer it is sitting around the more likely will run into a problem. A much biggger deal with folks with 1,000s of disks deployed because their probability is much higher than just 2 disks. With ZFS can loose 2-3% of the storage area on a disk and still likely recover all of your data.

ZFS also does snapshots at the block level with copy on write. So if you have a 20GB file and you change one 4K block of that file ZFS will allow you to access both versions of that file and just use 20GB + 4K + 8-12K overhead. Versus Time Machine perhaps duplicating the whole file.
[ However, Time Machine is meant as a back up and snapshots aren't a long term backup solution. A good "screwed up an two hours ago" solution though ]
 
No sure you could find two topics at further ends of the Mac universe.
MobileMe on an iPhone and ZFS filesystems.

Maybe ZFS was dropped as they are going to move away from a centralized server with pool of disks. To a decentralized system where each computer is a server and a store.

So for a home user they would have the Computer, iPhone, TimeMachine and CloudStore all synced at the FS level. But Apples main business exposure to date has been design shops. Who deal with big single lock files that others may reference. so each work station could be it's own leaf in the store house with a master co-ordinating who has the lock on each file. Syncing files across the work group done by the FS again.

A Distributed FS would scale to all targets in Apples operation.

With all these things though it doesn't matter if they are Geek ready. They need to be "tall leggy blond interior designer" ready
 
The iDisk app may be the precursor to iWork for the iPhone. I think so.
 
ZFS has Raidz. (similar to RAID 5 but without the transaction parity failure mode problems) This would allow you to store you media over 3 smaller disk in a more space efficient fashion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_RAID_levels#RAID_5). Your RAID mirrors have to be exactly same size disks. ZFS doesn't (if recall correctly). You can incrementally add one more disk with Raidz and get more storage whereas mirror requires add two.

In a failure mode in a mirror until you have reduplicated all the data on the surviving mirrored drive you are one disk failure away from loss of data.
The larger the drives you use to mirror the longer that restore window is.
Most likely you can recover from the TB drive before a another failure but this is a case where biggest isn't always better. As the largest drives get bigger this becomes more of an issue if used.

ZFS goes out and does check to see if your data had gone silently corrupted for you (and if possible correct it). The longer it is sitting around the more likely will run into a problem. A much biggger deal with folks with 1,000s of disks deployed because their probability is much higher than just 2 disks. With ZFS can loose 2-3% of the storage area on a disk and still likely recover all of your data.

ZFS also does snapshots at the block level with copy on write. So if you have a 20GB file and you change one 4K block of that file ZFS will allow you to access both versions of that file and just use 20GB + 4K + 8-12K overhead. Versus Time Machine perhaps duplicating the whole file.
[ However, Time Machine is meant as a back up and snapshots aren't a long term backup solution. A good "screwed up an two hours ago" solution though ]

Thanks for the informative post!

Well it seems ZFS does bring improvements, and the snapshot feature alone seems to make it worth it.
 
What a disapointment with the new integrated batteries in the laptops. I'm switching 100% over too solaris after my macbook has seen its last days
 
The main reason I was looking forward to ZFS was for the support of logical volumes (which in ZFS land is referred to as pools, right?). I didn't used to think this was a big deal, but as my media libraries have grown (legally, I might add as an aside) and with increased backup space requirements I'm beginning to see the light. :D

That's where I am as well. I'm a pro photog, and image storage/backup is my main concern.

Reading about ZFS around here got me really excited about the system, it's unfortunate it's not going to make it into SL.
 
No sure you could find two topics at further ends of the Mac universe.
MobileMe on an iPhone and ZFS filesystems.

Maybe ZFS was dropped as they are going to move away from a centralized server with pool of disks. ...

... and CloudStore

While could be implemented in several ways often cloud storage is centralized. The machine accessing is remote, but the data is likely on storage servers ( which effectively is a centralized server with a pool of disks.)

Think about it .... your a mobileMe. Users are going to ask you to store many TBs of data on your system, individual users have quotas, and you'll need to add space as the service grows. It wouldn't be surprising to find ZFS being asked to do that on the backend. Probably, not the MacOS version though at this point though.

Don't know for sure, but they could be coupled indirectly. :)
 
And Sun products require a pricey support contract so Sun engineers can custom tweak on site as Sun products rarely "just work" right out of the box.

Don't make me laugh, Solaris and ZFS works "out of the box" much, much better then Leopard Server.
 
Well, not if we want to stay stuck in the last century with our Mac filesystems, anyway... I wonder if they're waiting to see how ZFS fares from the Sun/Oracle merger.

Sure they are. All bets were off once Oracle bought Sun. If Apple really wanted to beef up their server OS they should've bought Sun. But it's too late now and it's a shame that all the work on zfs support has been scraped. Don't get me wrong HFS+ is way ahead of anything that MS has to offer but it will need a replacement even in the desktop market.
 
But does the average Mac user 1) need that much storage and 2) know how to set it up? Until Apple works out a way or GUI that's brain dead simple, I wouldn't expect to see ZFS support any time soon.

I'd be interested in hearing from some ordinary Solaris admins who've used it on a daily basis and get their thoughts on it. ZFS has a lot of potential but it's certainly not without problems, especially on other OSes. Everything I've read seems like ZFS is still not quite ready for prime yet and seeing as Apple just dropped it from the supported features list gives this theory even more credibility.
Solaris admin here.
Addressing A., GUI tools are already appearing in Solaris Nevada builds.

B. I work with and assist a group that has been running with ZFS for about 3 years now on their database server. That server hasn't been rebooted since we set it up. We recently switched web servers over to Solaris with ZFS from Linux. Major improvement in uptime, although that's more solaris than zfs. We're migrating soon to the latest Solaris release which contains ZFS root filesystem support. I have 1 server using it now and it makes upgrades a breeze.

Integrated volume management = awesome
RAIDZ and RAIDZ2 = awesome and double awesome
snapshots = kick ass
speed of filesystem creation: incredible

ZFS is about as prime time ready as it gets. The data integrity features start making you question archaic filesystems like NTFS and HFS+.
 
I have quite a large library as well. I've got two drives set up (1 TB each) as RAID mirrors, auto-rebuild, and a separate, much smaller drive for uh . . . "large downloads". Seems convenient enough. Also have anther drive for Time Machine.

How does ZFS improve on this?

Volume management (including on the fly adds to your storage pool), integrity checking, RAIDZ/RAIDZ2 so you don't use 1/2 your storage for insurance against hardware failure, instant snapshots, writeable snapshot clones, etc, etc.
 
In so far as SL is a stability release if had to let ZFS slip; what is wrong with that?

SL isn't a stability release. It's not like Leopard keeps falling over or something. SL was a PERFORMANCE release. New features "under the hood" that make OS/X more performant. ZFS is exactly that kind feature, and this WAS the time to introduce it.

I'm pretty sure that Apple is dropping ZFS not because it isn't _ready_ but for other more political reasons.
 
But does the average Mac user 1) need that much storage and 2) know how to set it up? Until Apple works out a way or GUI that's brain dead simple, I wouldn't expect to see ZFS support any time soon.

Do not get messed up with Solaris propaganda: ZFS is simply newer file system. Solaris had no decent local file system for some time. ZFS fills the gap. And also brings some network (NFS sucks) and volume management goodies with it.

As average user concerned, ZFS is newer better faster file system - compared to UFS or HFS+.

And in the case of normal Mac user, you do not need anything to set it up. It would work the same way as HFS+ does. "Setup" would happen if you want to use its software RAID or over network. What is not the case with Macs - not even with Mac Pros which use hardware RAID. IOW, that is transparent to file system.

I'd be interested in hearing from some ordinary Solaris admins who've used it on a daily basis and get their thoughts on it. ZFS has a lot of potential but it's certainly not without problems, especially on other OSes. Everything I've read seems like ZFS is still not quite ready for prime yet and seeing as Apple just dropped it from the supported features list gives this theory even more credibility.

I'm no Solaris admins, but folks over there are very excited. ZFS obsoletes number of proprietary solutions (e.g. Veritas) for many workloads. It also has a fancy Java UI so its administration is pretty straight forward. On one project which used Solaris 10, I advised folks to try ZFS on local disks and they brought it up within few hours with very positive performance results.

Apple may not be advertising this as a feature but may be including it for geeks to fiddle with (read command line, unsupported).

I do not think there is much you can fiddle in file system with. Unless you want to screw up your data. It is a general improvement for all workloads. (Also think about SSD, for which ZFS already has some optimizations.)

My personal guess would be that ZFS doesn't support streams (or other Apple specific features like aliases) and Apple might have to implement that themselves. Whether ZFS is extensible (e.g. support plug-ins), isn't known to me (Wikipedia doesn't mention plugins).
 
For more detailed information on how awesome RAID-Z is, see this post:
http://blogs.sun.com/bonwick/entry/raid_z

Edit:
And here's an example of ZFS being awesome on a "regular" user's system. His system was silently corrupting his data for almost a year, but ZFS detected the corruption in less than two hours!

He made a storage pool from three disks in RAID-Z, and found that it was actually the power supply that was corrupting his data. However, he's lazy, and just runs with a pool like that for over a week because RAID-Z detects and fixes the corruption automatically.

http://blogs.sun.com/elowe/entry/zfs_saves_the_day_ta
 
SL isn't a stability release. It's not like Leopard keeps falling over or something. SL was a PERFORMANCE release. New features "under the hood" that make OS/X more performant. ZFS is exactly that kind feature, and this WAS the time to introduce it.

Stable in so far as not adding new functionality that didn't exist before. Just new implementations of what was there. However, I can see how you can walk away with performance ( few functionality difference, just faster. )
However.....

ZFS, if using what makes it different from HFS+, isn't going to be faster. What is going to add is a volume manager ( which wasn't there before for most folks) and more data integrity protection (which wasn't being done before). That's going to consume more CPU time, not less. If you don't care about data integrity you can always make something faster.

ZFS was not "faster" than Sun's previous high performance filesystem offerings. Would be very surprising if that changed in revision 0.9 of ZFS when compared to HFS+.

ZFS makes a tradeoff. The premise that took was that on modern machines there are going to be more cores so the filesystem/volume manager/soft raid could consume a bit more to gain more integrity. ( there are knobs you can tweak to turn some of this overhead off if you know what you are doing. )

So if ultimate performance is the holy grail you are making it out to be, that would be reason to push this effort to the next release.

I'm pretty sure that Apple is dropping ZFS not because it isn't _ready_ but for other more political reasons.

What part of
" Currently, .zfs doesn’t work yet as we’re still in the process of porting it. All other snapshot capabilities work fine(rollback, send, recv), however you are unable to browse your snapshots individually via .zfs. You can use ‘zfs clone’ as a quick workaround to browse your snapshots: "
(http://zfs.macosforge.org/trac/wiki/issues)

among others issue don't you understand ? Browse the discussion list over last couple of months. An array of kernel panics and problems.
And if someone is going to throw out, "the internal builds are different" , we're how many weeks away from Golden Master and external folks haven't tested it?


Sure, politics is probably playing a role. It would be not surprising at all that the port team is getting push back from HFS+ ( "We're deployed, been around 'forever' , and work" ). That's normal (displacing something with a very long legacy is hard). However, if it isn't working they have very little leverage. After they get it working their are still some more hurdles to jump over. They then need to teach Spotlight and some other utilities layered on top of the OS about ZFS. Hooks into NFS. Heck, Mac OSX doesn't even have iscsi . The last two enable more utility you can get out of a box with tons of storage attached to it.
 
While Oracle hasn't annouced definative plans that seems extremely unlikely unless there is a major shift in thinking. The major difference between Btrfs and ZFS is that the former is targeted at Linux and the latter at Solaris.

I will admit right now that I really don't know much about the creation of new file systems. However, shouldn't that be completely irrelevant? From my understanding, ZFS could work on Linux, however due to licensing restrictions, people are being forced to implement it, at best, in FUSE. And given that ZFS could also work on the Mac platform, I draw the conclusion that a file system originally designed for Linux or Solaris or Mac is irrelevant, it can be ported and made to work with the proper modifications for other UNIX-like operating systems.

Since Larry Ellison said he thought Solaris was a very good implementation of Unix, it seems unlikely that Oracle is going to toss Solaris into the trash can.

I didn't think Ellison would simple throw Solaris into the trash. No point in wasting the work and code behind it.

If Solaris is around then ZFS is most certainly going to be around. For example one of the fastest growing products Sun had was its Unified Data Servers. ZFS is a key component of the functionality of those systems.

The existence of Solaris and ZFS is probable not tied. If we take what I said about file systems and their portability true, then Solaris could survive with Btrf which could become an evolutionary descendant from ZFS, superior to it. Not that I'm saying Btrfs *will* evolve into a superior file system and successor to ZFS, it is just that I think that is the likely case.

I don't think Oracle is going to abandon Linux, but if there is a viable amount of money in Solaris support revenues (seems very likely) not going to kill off Solaris. For sure there will be some battling around killing the other off but think Oracle is large enough can do both. Especially since a huge chunk of Oracle Linux is just Red Hat Linux. ;-)

I'm having trouble grasping how Btrfs won't become a direct competitor to ZFS in terms of overlapping features and interests. Yes, there is enough room for both to exist, however, what would be the point of that? Now that Oracle has the code base of both Btrfs and ZFS, it would make sense to consolidate all the gains in ZFS and combine them with all the new advancements in Btrfs, especially since Btrfs is still in the development stage. ZFS was suppose to be the last word in file systems remember?

Frankly Btrfs looked alot when they announced that they wanted a ZFS clone that was compatible with the Linux/GPL constraints. Throw in Rieser being sent off to jail and even more folks jumped on bandwagon. There are a few things different ZFS but there is a fair amount of overlap.

Which is precisely why there is no reason for ZFS and Btrfs, now being owned by the same company, needing to keep both. It makes sense to simple dual license the currently early in development Btrfs so that it supports both the Linux and other OS markets. Pour in the experience features and some of the code that went into ZFS into Btrfs. Its a win-win for everyone.

Btrfs has compatibility with ext3/ext4 in mind. It is a very, very Linux oriented file system. Moving it to another OS is very unlikely.

I don't see how being compatible with EXT3/EXT4 or being very Linux oriented has anything to do with its portability. Linux is lesser UNIX and should be portable given that Linux itself extends out in many areas. EXT2/3 and I think 4 can be mounted, read-write by the Mac OS. There is just no reason to have EXT3/4 used in place of HFS at this point vs ZFS/Btrfs which are clearly superior and provide definable advantages to Mac user-base.

Also, assuming that Ellison doesn't get rid of Solaris, why develop two overlapping filesystems [which as you say, Btrfs being somewhat of a clone of ZFS] when one will do and can be dual licensed eliminating all other problems with adoption in both arenas? Consolidate the code and resources and developer teams into one FS team.

Similarly, if look at the Automatic Storage Mangament inside the database as another "file system", there are already multiple files systems under development at Oracle. So it doesn't have to be "just one filesystem for the whole corporation" and starve resources off of one so that the other can get ahead.

Your looking at very specific storage needs being handled there. With Btrfs, as you said, being a Linux clone of ZFS, it doesn't make any sense to do that when you actually own the product. You don't need to clone it anymore, you own it and can simple relicense it. Btrfs combined with ZFS would make an even better *general purpose* server/client filesystem solution, which is what ZFS is and what Btrfs is bound to become. The storage solution you listed has very specific applications not suited to what ZFS and Btrfs seem to be aimed at.

Btrfs is useless for Apple to include into the kernel because it is GPL based. No GPL stuff is going inside of the core OS at Apple. No way, no how. Similar reason why ZFS can't going into Linux is the reason it can go into MacOS X.

Which is why you have software that is dual licensed. I don't disagree with your comment about the licensing, its just that there are licensing solutions to licensing problems.
 
Do not get messed up with Solaris propaganda: ZFS is simply newer file system. Solaris had no decent local file system for some time. ZFS fills the gap. And also brings some network (NFS sucks) and volume management goodies with it.

Just a file system? Folks go back to post 94 and follow the link to 'zfs saves the day'. Is HFS+ going to compensate for a flaky power supply?
ZFS's scope is different from a just a file system.

Also ZFS has no network goodies in it. It plugs into your NFS and can consume network storage that look like devices but it isn't doing that itself. That is part of the hang ups of plugging it into the OS.








I do not think there is much you can fiddle in file system with.

You fiddle with the file system by using it. Throw a bunch of devices at it to consume and place a bunch of files on it and give it lots of read/write workload to deal with.


My personal guess would be that ZFS doesn't support streams (or other Apple specific features like aliases) and Apple might have to implement that themselves. Whether ZFS is extensible (e.g. support plug-ins), isn't known to me (Wikipedia doesn't mention plugins).

ZFS has extended attributes. Not sure if by "streams" you are talking "alternate data streams" (windows speak for resource forks ) or something else.

When can use POSIX hardlinks not sure why want to use Alias ( which finds the most probable alternative as oppose to the exact same file. ) In that the alias is just a file with data stuffed in the 'resource fork'/'extended attribute' you can. It is possible, but requires work to make it transparent.

"Plug-ins" in HFS+ ? Some OSs have a framework so install another filesystem, but the file system itself extensible? You can put your own metadata in the extended attribute of the files, but that is really just storing more data. You haven't extended the file system itself.
 
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