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OK, I am wrong.

kuwan said:
Ugh, I can't believe I'm responding but there are a couple of items that need to be set straight. Not that Aiden will understand them or accept them, but at least other readers should know how it really works.
I accept your explanation, even as I sit and watch a 64-bit app running on my 32-bit OS....

Perhaps the core disagreement is whether "impossible" and "difficult" mean the same thing.
 
Macinposh Is Our New Comedian - Welcome!

Macinposh said:
Will the woodies keep their FSB speed in the transition to clovertons, or will it change? ... It would be quite safe to think that the upcoming Leotard will support multiple (8-16-32?) core support, as the first 4 core Clovertowns will come out at the same time?
LOL. Rotflmao. You are hilarious man/woman. :p I'm sure you are right about Leotard. :D . Macinposh :p

Flip the "t" and the "p" if you don't get the joke yet. I am literally rolling on the floor laughing my a** off. Anyone else out there with me? I'm gettin' a Woody just thinkin' 'bout that Quad's FSB man. :D
 
boomeringue said:
Aiden>1. For the same reason that putting Conroe and Woodcrest chips in the same Mac Pro line. If it's too expensive to have 2 separate logic boards for the Mac Pro, why would it make sense to have an entirely separate product for this?

2. Apple returned to profitability in the late 90s by *reducing* their product offerings, and they've held that pretty steady for nearly 10 years now. In fact, since they've moved to Intel, they've reduced their product line even further, axing the eMac from the consumer market and reducing the number of different portable offerings from 5 to 3 (4 if you count the black MacBook).

3. Every Apple product has a specific market in mind, and rarely do they overlap in what the product offers. This reduces confusion for customers, and probably more importantly keeps one product line from stealing from another, and reduces costs. If you have 2 high-end desktop systems, and their only differences are that one has slightly more expansion and slightly faster processors and is alot more expensive, why would people even consider purchasing the higher-end product unless they need to max out their PCI slots?

4. There isn't much of a market for PCI cards in Apple systems at this point. The reason Apple relies on 'dongles', as you put it is, again for simplicity's sake- FireWire and USB are a hell of a lot easier to install and configure than PCI cards, and at the time when Apple started going with less expansion (the introduction of the iMac), the market for expansion cards was getting worse, and is still pretty low. I definitely see a renaissance for those cards if Apple sales start to climb, and since OS X/Intel runs on 'standard' intel chipsets and uses EFI, companies like nVidia and ATi are going to be more likely to come out with drivers for OS X and box em with their standard video cards, instead of requiring video cards with a completely different bios to deal with open firmware. Which brings me to my last point...

5. Gamers are the x-factor in all this. It's pretty obvious that Apple came out with Boot Camp when they did to cause some buzz with OS X/Leopard and get gamers salivating about the prospect of running their gaming machine incased in brushed metal goodness. Based on the rumors that Mac Pros are coming out at WWDC and Leopard will ship at the same time as Vista, or before, it's pretty obvious Apple was giving PC gamers a come-hither look. I would certainly agree that the type of machine you are talking about would be of interest to mid-level gamers....folks that play lots of games, but don't throw around high-end Alienware money. So the question becomes if/when Apple targets the gaming market more seriously, what would be the best strategy to do so? Until Apple has more of a 'home-grown' gaming market, ie, they either start developing games themselves or bribe game developers to release games at the same time on OS X as they do Windows (and more importantly, release games that are *exclusive* to OS X, I would say that Apple isn't going to benefit much from diversifying their hardware offerings for gamers.

1 Who says it's expensive to have two different mobos for the towers? Maybe with G5, since apple has to design. Maybe with imac, laptops and mini, since there's form factor to worry about. But on a tower, desigining a mobo is a piece of cake, they could even take a stock mobo from intel and just tweak it a little.

I think it's almost a certainty that apple will have a line that includes both conroe and dual woodcrest. They can't afford to ignore either the low-cost model or the high-end model.

2 Apple has reduced the product line with intel so far, but I think that's only a side effect of trying to transition many products as quickly as possible. I think once the transition is complete Apple will look at adding additional models. Along these lines, I think the mini tower may be released some time after the full size towers are updated.

3 Canibalizing more expensive products is a concern. But if apple doesn't cater to the mid range customers, they risk losing them to windows.

4 I agree that PCI cards are less and less important (although there are still things that are unavailable as USB or cheaper as a card), which is why I could see a mini tower only having one or two open slots. But don't forget about the video card, much of the appeal would be the ability to upgrade the video card.
 
remember pcie 1x slots?

they are really small and could easyly fit into a cube size case.
 
milo said:
3 Canibalizing more expensive products is a concern. But if apple doesn't cater to the mid range customers, they risk losing them to windows.

Doesn't the iMac already cater to mid-range customers? I really don't see why people are so sure that there will be a mini-tower. There isn't that much of a price gap between low end Powermac/Mac Pro and the 20" iMac. In fact, it's only $300. I don't see why Apple would release a product that is "between" those two.
 
it5five said:
Doesn't the iMac already cater to mid-range customers? I really don't see why people are so sure that there will be a mini-tower. There isn't that much of a price gap between low end Powermac/Mac Pro and the 20" iMac. In fact, it's only $300. I don't see why Apple would release a product that is "between" those two.

No. The imac doesn't have any internal expandability, you're stuck with the monitor it ships with, and you can't upgrade the video card. I wouldn't even consider it in the same category as the tower and mini.

I don't think anyone is really sure that apple would release it, we just think it would be a good idea and would like to see it.
 
Aiden's Dream Cheaper Mini-Expandible Headless Mac Is A Long Shot

it5five said:
Doesn't the iMac already cater to mid-range customers? I really don't see why people are so sure that there will be a mini-tower. There isn't that much of a price gap between low end Powermac/Mac Pro and the 20" iMac. In fact, it's only $300. I don't see why Apple would release a product that is "between" those two.
I have always and totally agree with you on this point. Although I am opposed to the iMac on principle - I believe everyone should choose their own display(s), now that iMacs Span - albiet not to Dual DVI - it's even more narrow of a niche market for what Aiden hopes. And we all know that in spite of its market share, Apple is all about hit models and volume within its small set of offerings which is the proven success far cry from the caos of too many models that afflicted Macs in the Naughty Nineties. ;)

Maybe next year after Leotard ships. :D Thanks Macinposh. You're a genius!

Flip the "t" and the "p" if you don't get the joke yet. :) I am literally rolling on the floor laughing my a** off. Anyone else out there with me?
 
Multimedia said:
I thought this in January. But Conroes can't be made into Quads. So I am not so sure. The Conroe motherboards are a lot less money than the Woodcrest ones. So conventional wisdom says one Quad Woodcrest and the rest Conroe Core 2 Duos. :)

I mean Xeon (Woodcrest) all the way ...

if Apple goes for anything less there workstations will be slower than the DELL Pro Workstations ...

if you look at Dell.com and there Workstation line it consist with 3 Desktop Workstation Modells .

Dell PrecisionTM 380 Processor Extreme Edition 955
Dell PrecisionTM 490 2 x Intel® Xeon-® dualcore 64bit 3,73 GHz
Dell PrecisionTM 690 2x Intel® Xeon-® dualcore 64 bit 3,73 GHz

if the Mac Pro line will consist of 3 Modells in the future Apple need to kick Dell in the balls and release something more extream than this ..

and I doubt Apple will wait for WWDC to release this ... why ? because Dell will be able to release there Workstation Woodcrest line by the end of this mounth ... so hopefully Apple will do the same ... but ofcourse in Apple-Style !
 
Macinposh said:
About ten posts ago.

Do you have problems watching Woody Harrelson in the films and is your fireplace is sad and empty because you can´t chop wood for it?

I feel so gay that you were not refering to the recent sexual connotations of the word "woodie". :rolleyes:
 
Gettin' A Woody or A Woodie? That Is The Question.

wwworry said:
I feel so gay that you were not refering to the recent sexual connotations of the word "woodie". :rolleyes:
I was. Is the word "woodie" or "woody"? From My Post #277:

I'm gettin' a Woody just thinkin' 'bout that Quad's FSB man. :D
 
Multimedia said:
I was. Is the word "woodie" or "woody"? From My Post #277:

I'm gettin' a Woody just thinkin' 'bout that Quad's FSB man. :D

I'd feel sorry for you if it seemed like you were not enjoying yourself (a lot!). I was refering to post #263.

Anyway, I hope something shows up soon.
 
AidenShaw said:
I accept your explanation, even as I sit and watch a 64-bit app running on my 32-bit OS....

Perhaps the core disagreement is whether "impossible" and "difficult" mean the same thing.

It's a virtual machine, not a traditional application. You are wrong, and it's okay to be wrong. Don't be so stubborn. :)

I have the AMD A64 tech manuals in my closet. :p
 
Mac OS Rumors (MOSR) Claims There Will Be An 8 Core Mac Pro This Summer

Mac OS Rumors (MOSR) published this article which claims 2, 4, and 8 core Mac Pros are in this Summer's mix. Is that really possible? :confused: :eek:
Mac OS Rumors.com Article said:
Employing Intel's "Conroe" Core 2 Duo/Core 2 Extreme processors, there will be 2, 4, and 8-core models available with DDR2-800 memory, multiple PCI Express x16-SLI graphics cards, lots of expansion options, and a new enclosure that expands the liquid-cooled PMG5 design to offer professionals everything and the kitchen sink.

The Mac Pro has been a long time coming, is the culmination of over a decade of as-yet-unfulfilled Mac power-user demands combined with Intel's latest and greatest technology.

The Conroe-class Core 2 processors will be over 50% more efficient than today's Core Solo/Core Duo processors at the same clock rate per-core....and that means amazing performance per watt.

The Mac Pro will be quiet, energy efficient, have considerably more expansion potential than any Mac to date, and will move overall performance up to 5X faster than today's PowerMac G5 Quad.

In some areas, performance will be 8-12X or even more in the case of graphics performance.

Four-way SLI with high-end nVIDIA and ATi graphics cards is going to bring the Mac gamer to the forefront of performance in a very big way.
Is this guy on crack or are we just mis/uninformed here? Might Intel have designed a secret 4-socket Woody motherboard exclusively for Apple as a part of their license deal for their (Apple's) multi-processor/core management technology? Would be a way for Apple to get cheap Woddy 4-socket motherboards.

I remember reading somewhere earlier this year that Intel needed Apple's quad core management technology as they had none of their own. Word was Intel was going to give Apple a head start on the use of the license before the other manufacturers could have access to it and that when they did, Apple would be getting a piece ($) of every motherboard that included the licensed tech from Apple.
 
Multimedia said:
Might Intel have designed a secret 4-socket Woody motherboard exclusively for Apple as a part of their license deal for their (Apple's) multi-processor/core management technology?
No secret.

"Tulsa" is the "Core 2" family that supports 4 or more sockets.

Also known as "Xeon MP", it has the logic (and price tag) to do cache coherency in more than two-way configs.

Xeon MP has been around for quite a few years...

You won't see anything "exclusively for Apple" coming from Intel. Has there been anything "exclusively for Dell" in the x86 space from Intel? Or for HP? Or for any other customer?

Multimedia said:
I remember reading somewhere earlier this year that Intel needed Apple's quad core management technology as they had none of their own.
This was a fanbois' hallucination.

4-way and 8-way Intel boxes have been around since the Pentium Pro days more than 8 years ago. Unisys sells up to 32-way Xeon MP systems.... IBM has a 32-socket, 64-core Xeon system. Quad socket dual-core Opterons (8 CPUs) are cheap and easy to find from many manufacturers.

Windows Server already supports 64-way systems (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/64bit/x64/datacenter.mspx).

Intel needing Apple's help to go from 2-way to 4-way is a ludicrous fantasy - thanks for the late evening laugh! :D Especially laughable since Intel doesn't do operating systems, and Apple doesn't make processors. What would Apple even have to offer to Intel?
 
novagamer said:
It's a virtual machine, not a traditional application. You are wrong, and it's okay to be wrong. Don't be so stubborn. :)

I have the AMD A64 tech manuals in my closet. :p
Am I wrong, or are you splitting hairs? (Or are we both splitting hairs?)

A 32-bit O/S running an application that hosts a 64-bit virtual machine? Is that not something running 64-bits on top of a 32-bit OS? Is that "something" not an application?

I was wrong in claiming that a switching from 64-bit OS to a 32-bit application was no more difficult than a switch from 32-bit OS to 64-bit app - the clarification of "legacy" vs "compatibility" mode shows that it's easier to support 32-bit from a 64-bit base than vice-versa.
_______________________________

The original statement, however, was that it was impossible for a 32-bit OS to run 64-bit apps with x64.

Clearly, VMware shows that "impossible" is too strong a statement.... "Difficult", "impractical", "cumbersome", "inefficient" perhaps.

But "impossible"? How can you say "impossible" when you can buy products that are doing it?
 
Can A Four Socket Tulsa Come In At $4-5k retail?

AidenShaw said:
"Tulsa" is the "Core 2" family that supports 4 or more sockets.

Also known as "Xeon MP", it has the logic (and price tag) to do cache coherency in more than two-way configs.

Xeon MP has been around for quite a few years... 4-way and 8-way Intel boxes have been around since the Pentium Pro days more than 8 years ago. Unisys sells up to 32-way Xeon MP systems.... IBM has a 32-socket, 64-core Xeon system. Quad socket dual-core Opterons (8 CPUs) are cheap and easy to find from many manufacturers.

Windows Server already supports 64-way systems (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/64bit/x64/datacenter.mspx).
OK great. So is a four socket Tulsa a realistic possability if the computer could cost no more than $4-5k?
 
I didn't respond to your earlier post because it's hard to know the right answer without access to Apple's marketing strategy and Intel's advance hardware documentation - so this post is mostly opinion based on how things usually work in IntelLand.

Macinposh said:
So the upcoming MacBookPro upgrade to meroms or the people upgrading their MacMiniSolos to Duos can not be used as reference?
The MBT CPU is soldered, so a user upgrade is not possible. When Apple puts Meroms into the MBT this August, they will also update the firmware if required.

For the MiniMacIntel, there are reports of Merom early samples plugging right in and running. Note that I said it "often" requires upgrades, so this might be a case where it does not. It might also be the case that a firmware upgrade could "improve stability", so although the MiniMerom runs with the current firmware there are some minor issues.

Macinposh said:
Is the core amount more difficult subject to the bios/efi to handle than the change of FSB speed or 32-to-64 bittness?
Going from one core to more-than-one is the most difficult, since the firmware often has the ability to enable/disable the second CPU. (Dual core Opterons could be plugged into existing systems, but required a firmware upgrade to recognize the second CPU.)

Going from 2 to 4 cores might be OK, especially since the people writing the firmware already know about the quad core chips coming within 6-9 months. If the advance documentation is correct, then a quad core could drop into a dual-core socket.

Macinposh said:
Will the woodies keep their FSB speed in the transition to clovertons, or will it change? How does that affect the FD-Dimm memory settings,or will it affect them at all?
On most (maybe all) Intel motherboards the FSB is fixed by the chipset, and the CPU chip runs at some multiple of the FSB clock. I can think of no case where a new CPU changed the MB frequency - usually the CPU adjusts to the MB.

Macinposh said:
What is the situation with 10.4.x? Can it handle more than 4 cores atm?

It would be quite safe to think that the upcoming Leotard will support multiple (8-16-32?) core support, as the first 4 core Clovertowns will come out at the same time?
It probably works, but the question is "does it work well?". SMP support on OSX started weak even on machines with 2 CPUs, and has been improved with each release. Note that "Piger’s state-of-the-art kernel features improved SMP scalability".

There are some articles on the web about the poor performance of OSX on multi-threaded databases, relative to Linux running on the same PPC system. It takes time to tune SMP, particularly for heavily multi-threaded apps.

Macinposh said:
How do you guys see the Conroe 2.93 EE fitting into Apples repertoire?

As it is the only conroe that doesnt have locked mhz and can be overclocked, will apple cater the Tinkers&Tuners,say, by releasing the MacTowerTM containing it?

I know apple has not supported peoples tinkering in the past,but now?
In this case I think that Apple's drive to keep the product lines simple will come into play - I don't think that they'll want the EE.

On the other hand, Apple itself could overclock the EE and sell a system with that - it could be a nice high end system to top the new form-factor Mini-Power line. (And Apple does have a history of clocking chips faster than the normal speed.)
 
Multimedia said:
OK great. So is a four socket Tulsa a realistic possability if the computer could cost no more than $4-5k?
I wouldn't be too sure that a dual Woody will come in at $4K ... (configured, that is - ignore the price with 512 MiB of RAM and CD-ROM only)

(insert the "that's one reason why there will be a new form-factor dual-core 64-bit Conroe Mini-Tower/Pizza-Box soon" argument here)
 
AidenShaw said:
I wouldn't be too sure that a dual Woody will come in at $4K ... (configured, that is - ignore the price with 512 MiB of RAM and CD-ROM only)

(insert the "that's one reason why there will be a new form-factor dual-core 64-bit Conroe Mini-Tower/Pizza-Box soon" argument here)

So how much do you expect?
 
ksz said:
Only 1 of 3 PowerMac configurations today is dual dual-core. It's possible that 1 of 3 MacPro configurations will be dual dual-core. The story only says that Conroe may appear in MacPro, but this does not rule out an "Oh, I almost forgot, One More Thing..." from the Stevenote. One of the tower configurations may be dual Woodcrested.

Conroe, Smonroe. I just bought the new 17" intel MacBook Pro. Now waiting for the new Power Mac intel to replace my aging G4 dual processor. Whatever processor the new tower is going to use I'm there!
 
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