You Can/Can't Still Use PowerPC Macs in 2020!

[TheShortTimer]

I had to explain to the cable guy once what a 24-port switch was. He'd never seen one.

This really doesn't surprise me, not after my experiences over the past few years. A classic involving Macs transpired when I rang the technical support hotline for a famous storage device manufacturer and requested that they arrange an RMA for a defective external HDD. I explained that my Mac was no longer able to read/write to the drive's NTFS partitions and they reacted with a tone indicating that they thought I was drunk, high or crank calling them and reminded me that Macs cannot write to NTFS partitions.

I then had to explain to this individual, who is employed as a provider of technical support by this multinational giant (who shall remain nameless) that there is software available which allows the Mac to do exactly that and I'm using it on mine. With shock quite visible in his voice, he then asked for the name of the software and a few moments of silence ensued as he presumably visited the website of Tuxera and became acquainted with their products.

He at least managed to arrange the RMA process and the drive was replaced but I was stunned by the Orwellian/Swift/Heller/Kafka-esque irony that I was more informed than the person who was being paid to supposedly assist me.

 

[eyoungren]

…but I was stunned by the Orwellian/Swift/Heller/Kafka-esque irony that I was more informed than the person who was being paid to supposedly assist me.

Yeah, I'm finding this happening more and more. I don't have an IT degree and everything I know I got from Google and beating my head against the computer.

It's a lot disconcerting to find out you know more than the person helping you.

 

[defjam]

What if we turn this into a PPC appreciation thread (a sort of "what did you do with your PPC Mac today?" sort of thing)? I feel we could be a lot more productive spreading positivity rather than endlessly debating this.

There is nothing to debate. The reality is the average user does not want to know nor do they care how their systems work. They want to just use them.

As for turning it into a PPC appreciate thread isn't that what this forum is essentially for? To discuss PPC based systems?
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He at least managed to arrange the RMA process and the drive was replaced but I was stunned by the Orwellian/Swift/Heller/Kafka-esque irony that I was more informed than the person who was being paid to supposedly assist me.

This surprises you? I would say the majority of people in this forum are more knowledgeable than first line technical support. Which stands to reason. First line technical support is difficult and anyone with any knowledge / skills will quickly move up from or off of first level technical support. This ensures a constant flow of entry level, first line technical support staff.

 

[cosmichobo]

I think the world is getting cabin fever...

 

[RogerWilco6502]

There is nothing to debate. The reality is the average user does not want to know nor do they care how their systems work. They want to just use them.

As for turning it into a PPC appreciate thread isn't that what this forum is essentially for? To discuss PPC based systems?

I agree that there's nothing to debate. We all have our own opinions and no one is going to change anyone else's opinion based on this debate. Yeah, this whole forum is for that, but I do think it would be nice to replace sme of the negativity and anger that has been generated with this thread with positivity and appreciation for these truly amazing systems

 

[1042686]

I was stunned by the Orwellian/Swift/Heller/Kafka-esque irony that I was more informed than the person who was being paid to supposedly assist me.

This has happened to myself as well and Id venture a guess many of us. To my earlier point, as the masses intersect with & adopt new technology, the level of technical understanding drops, & with it the depth of tier1 training.

Part of industry surrounding new technology is to broaden access ability. Make it easier to use & understand to more people & you cast a broader customer net & make more money.

This isn’t just about stupid lazy people unwilling to learn. This is also about industry getting increasing good at what they’re doing & making a really easy to understand & use device.

And to come full circle - with that broad & diverse customer base using a tool for what it does, not for how it’s engineered, tier1 service component is refitted to service a more basic understanding.

I mean most people don’t try to fix broken dish washers or washing machines or TVs. They either call the Maytag man/TV repair guy or toss it out as is evidenced by the endless flow of junked devices on CL or Letgo.

I try to fix these things like I try to fix my computers which is another important piece of this puzzle. I believe this tinkerer mentality is mostly true of this forum but in being resourceful & thoughtful in this way we create distortion in how we perceive the greater market - where I believe this reverse engineer/learn-to-fix-it understanding to be patently untrue. The broader market is evolved to serve the lowest common denominator possible (ie: the broadest possible customer net) & that to my knowledge is not anyone here.

and a quick definition oflowest common denominator - this Is a person who uses but does not understand - that lack of understanding is not purely born of stupidity or laziness- more often I think of lack of time. It’s not that we’re just lazy dumb asses, rather we’re busy people (ugh!) with limited time & priorities that take precedent over & use that time, so understanding as great as it is, is never absorbed. Again, not an expression of stupidity or cognitive ability - rather time.

SO - when we talk about OS as a product that industry makes and as a tool the masses use, it makes sense that they use the device that will support the newest, most fully functional OS they can get their hands on as it is used as a tool for what it does out of the box, not for what it could do if you apply tweaks ABC & fixes XYZ & wait 20 seconds.

Anyhoo my two cents. Gotta go make a buck at work. Be safe everyone.

 

[iluvmacs99]

TOP 25 LIFELONG LEARNING QUOTES | A-Z Quotes

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“Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.” “Education is the kindling of a flame, not the filling of a vessel.” “Self-education is, I firmly believe, the only kind of education there is.”

That's how I live my life and so did many of the customers I met while working in the computer field. The average users are life long learners; they adapt and they innovate because they all have the desire to grow. Living a life is about growth and sometimes we look up to leaders and influencers both for the opportunity and direction of growth. Sometimes certain leaders don't provide the avenue of growth; but rather the avenue of non-growth turning people into ice cubes. A person who is unwilling to grow, unwilling to be pursuing growth and unwilling to embrace new teachings thus changing his or her belief is a person stuck in ice, their being is frozen. You will see a lot of people like that in our society where while you see many opportunities for growth and wealth, all they see is a block of ice. Their minds are frozen solid. What I had experienced, which Isaac Asimov, coined it so well was the education given by customers helped melted me from my frozen state to be able to see what I couldn't see. The potential for a PowerPC machine in today's modern computing world, Ubuntu and Linux Mint and their variants. Before I worked for IT in the recycling business, my views are very similar to Defjam. I had a certain fixed view of what an average user was. My mind was frozen to those views. I suppose that because I had worked in this field, constantly corrected by my so called "DUMB" average users who weren't dumb but corrected me because I was "dumb" how not to see what I couldn't see before.

We all have certain views which are frozen due to our lack of experience working and dealing with a group of people, because we never worked with them. The views are then formed in our minds based on a theory or a concept devoid of reality; for which the OP of the video did. He formed an opinion based on his world, his views but nothing related to reality and the experiences and made it as facts. His views are frozen and he attracts people who shared the same frozen views. Like attracts like. What differentiates us versus them is experience.

Experience allows us to discern what is real and what in unreal of someone's opinion, whereas lack of experience allows certain people to blindly follow the blind leaders. There's a saying -- fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

 

[defjam]

I mean most people don’t try to fix broken dish washers or washing machines or TVs. They either call the Maytag man/TV repair guy or toss it out as is evidenced by the endless flow of junked devices on CL or Letgo.

The question becomes should they? If so then to what level? Where does it end? I don't have the time nor inclination to know how to service or repair everything I have. It's not for lack of being stupid but I have other things to do with my time than learn the details of how everything works and how to repair anything that would go wrong with it.

People on this forum are enthusiasts and enjoy tinkering, tweaking, configuring, and trying to get the most out of their systems. I think that's a great thing in that it keeps them from being scrapped. But the participants need to realize this is something they choose to do because it's something they want to do.

I asked this of others and I'll ask it of you (or anyone else who would like to answer): Do you have an in-depth knowledge of everything you own and use? In depth enough to know that if something should go wrong with it that you have the knowledge and skill to repair it? I have yet to receive an answer to this question, I suspect because the answer is no.
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We all have certain views which are frozen due to our lack of experience working and dealing with a group of people, because we never worked with them. The views are then formed in our minds based on a theory or a concept devoid of reality; for which the OP of the video did. He formed an opinion based on his world, his views but nothing related to reality and the experiences and made it as facts. His views are frozen and he attracts people who shared the same frozen views. Like attracts like. What differentiates us versus them is experience.

Perhaps you're referring to a different video but the YouTuber of the first video of the OP was offering his opinion that for the average person a PPC based system doesn't make sense when there are more capable systems which can do the job with less hassle (not to mention, generally speaking, faster). It appears he made the video due to his viewers making inquiries about purchasing PPC based systems because, apparently, this YouTuber has created a number of videos of them.

Of course I know his opinion (of which I am in agreement) is not going to be well received in a forum dedicated to using these systems. Step outside of this forum and I think you'll start to find many people who are in agreement with it.

 

[AphoticD]

I get it. Nobody is going to recommend a PowerPC Mac to an average user based on price point.

I agree. I wouldn’t.

About 10 years ago I gave my ‘05 model PowerBook G4 15 to my sister. She used it for about 6 years or so until YouTube stopped working (in Safari) and the laptop was deemed unusable. She then bought an Acer laptop with Windows 10 and had nothing but trouble with viruses and malware. I was too busy to help her resolve it (from interstate), so I recommended she take it to a local PC repair shop. She then got duped into paying hundreds of dollars to resolve it...

After her bad experience with Windows, she wanted to go back to Mac, so I offered to give her an A1181 MacBook that I had repaired. She insisted on paying for it and has been happy with the “old” MacBook since - it plays YouTube and she can do her online surveys and things so she is happy.

But referencing the thread title; Yes, a PowerPC Mac can still be used in 2020. If you want to.

Edit: I should also mention my sister used the old MacBook for an entry level graphic design course to learn Photoshop and Illustrator last year - It must have worked well as I heard no complaints

Edit 2: the PB G4 came back to me in decent condition, except for a failed backlight. I replaced the LCD inverter board and fitted it with an SSD. It is once again a happy Mac and back in my PowerPC stable.

 

[Raging Dufus]

There is nothing to debate.

Then stop.

 

[iluvmacs99]

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Perhaps you're referring to a different video but the YouTuber of the first video of the OP was offering his opinion that for the average person a PPC based system doesn't make sense when there are more capable systems which can do the job with less hassle (not to mention, generally speaking, faster). It appears he made the video due to his viewers making inquiries about purchasing PPC based systems because, apparently, this YouTuber has created a number of videos of them.

Of course I know his opinion (of which I am in agreement) is not going to be well received in a forum dedicated to using these systems. Step outside of this forum and I think you'll start to find many people who are in agreement with it.
[/QUOTE]

I think people in this forum understood the limitation of the PPC based systems and there is no denial on that. People like myself browsing with TenFourFox using foxPEP and uMatrix and any other customization is a testament and the realization that without them the PPC based systems will become unacceptable for general browsing. Having said that, you will find many people who are in agreement with you and the OP share the the same trait. It is that lack of experience living on the other side of the haves; that is the life of the have-nots. If it were not for me being dead broke after a series of unforseen circumstances that taught me a series of valuable life lessons from other people, my mentors who helped me get back on my feet that they said, living is about growth. Without adversity, there is no growth and creativity comes from solving life challenges and adversity. So you can see from the PPC community that having people developing TenFourFox and foxPEP are testaments of that creativity by creating programs and settings to allow the PPC system to be as relevant in 2020. Would it meet your criteria? Perhaps not. Just like would you settle for minimum wage? Perhaps not; and perhaps you would settle perhaps much more than minimum wage, but that does not mean some people can't live within the means even if they earn minimum wage. The beauty of human nature is our amazing ability to adapt to life challenges. The OP and yourself seemed to suggest that we shouldn't. We should just follow the blind leaders. Perhaps this is why some ancient societies went downhill because the people in the society stopped thinking for themselves and let others dictate what they should think rather than they themselves think who they should be and do.

 

[defjam]

I think people in this forum understood the limitation of the PPC based systems and there is no denial on that. People like myself browsing with TenFourFox using foxPEP and uMatrix and any other customization is a testament and the realization that without them the PPC based systems will become unacceptable for general browsing. Having said that, you will find many people who are in agreement with you and the OP share the the same trait.

I want to clarify that the OP is not the same as the YouTuber who created the video. The OP posted a YouTubers video. This is important because:

1. They're two different people who hold opposing points of view
2. The YouTuber did not come to this forum trying to change anyone's mind. The OP referenced the YouTuber because the OP wanted to be critical of the YouTuber.

It is that lack of experience living on the other side of the haves; that is the life of the have-nots. If it were not for me being dead broke after a series of unforseen circumstances that taught me a series of valuable life lessons from other people, my mentors who helped me get back on my feet that they said, living is about growth.

The cost argument is a non-starter. All of the systems being discussed can be obtained for similar price points. Barring a unique circumstance if one can afford a PPC system then they likely can afford one of the early Intel Macintosh systems.

Without adversity, there is no growth and creativity comes from solving life challenges and adversity. So you can see from the PPC community that having people developing TenFourFox and foxPEP are testaments of that creativity by creating programs and settings to allow the PPC system to be as relevant in 2020.

No one has attempted to convince anyone here to stop using PPC systems or stop creating solutions to make them more useable than they otherwise would be. Neither have they been critical of those using or creating these solutions.

Would it meet your criteria? Perhaps not. Just like would you settle for minimum wage? Perhaps not; and perhaps you would settle perhaps much more than minimum wage, but that does not mean some people can't live within the means even if they earn minimum wage. The beauty of human nature is our amazing ability to adapt to life challenges. The OP and yourself seemed to suggest that we shouldn't. We should just follow the blind leaders. Perhaps this is why some ancient societies went downhill because the people in the society stopped thinking for themselves and let others dictate what they should think rather than they themselves think who they should be and do.

How do the following statements of mine lead you to such a conclusion:

I, just like the YouTuber in the first video of the OP, cannot, in good conscious, recommend the average user purchase a PPC based system. This advice is not aimed at the enthusiast, people who have PPC specifics constraints, or the participants of this forum.​

I am not an anti-PPC guy. I didn't start this thread nor did the YouTuber in the first video of the individual who did. No one, at least not that I've seen, is trying to convince anyone here to stop using PPC systems. No one is being critical of those who choose to do so. No one is being critical of their desire to have a deeper understanding of the tools they use.​

I could probably find other examples of statements similar to the above. Someone else started this, I did not and neither did the YouTuber. No one is suggesting anyone here (or elsewhere) should stop using PPC systems. What the YouTuber was saying is he cannot recommend a PPC based system to the average user. I agree with that.

I have a couple of PPC based systems, a couple of 68K systems (including a Macintosh 512K), and a number Apple II based systems. These are all great systems and some have their specific use cases. I enjoy tinkering with them, especially writing assembly code on the Apple II based systems. The fact I can use them does not mean I would recommend them to the average user.

​

 

[Dronecatcher]

1. They're two different people who hold opposing points of view
2. The YouTuber did not come to this forum trying to change anyone's mind. The OP referenced the YouTuber because the OP wanted to be critical of the YouTuber.

First point, how do you know my view is opposing - there's no evidence in this thread.
Second point, this is an outright lie you keep on repeating without any substance.

 

[Raging Dufus]

The OP referenced the YouTuber because the OP wanted to be critical of the YouTuber.

No one has attempted to convince anyone here to stop using PPC systems or stop creating solutions to make them more useable than they otherwise would be. Neither have they been critical of those using or creating these solutions.

You continue to ascribe motives to people that they have not espoused. No one here has reacted in a way that would lead any reasonable person to believe they felt attacked for enjoying PPC systems. No one has attacked your position that Intel Macs are easier to use. These things haven't happened, and yet you continue to behave as though they have.

Then in response to things that haven't been said, you set up the straw man that, "well, if you can't repair every single thing you own then you have no business saying PowerPC is best." And because it's such a ridiculous straw man, no one engages... to which you shriek "I WIN! I WIN!"

Enough is enough.

 

[defjam]

You continue to ascribe motives to people that they have not espoused. No one here has reacted in a way that would lead any reasonable person to believe they felt attacked for enjoying PPC systems. No one has attacked your position that Intel Macs are easier to use. These things haven't happened, and yet you continue to behave as though they have.

That's your opinion, I feel differently and since the individual in question refuses to clarify I will continue to hold my opinion.

Then in response to things that haven't been said, you set up the straw man that, "well, if you can't repair every single thing you own then you have no business saying PowerPC is best." And because it's such a ridiculous straw man, no one engages... to which you shriek "I WIN! I WIN!"

I made no such claim. What I did say that it's unreasonable to expect everyone to have a sufficient level of knowledge about everything they own that they would be able to perform repairs on it should it have issue. Some here have advocated this is reasonable for computers and my response is: Why stop at just computers. You don't answer this question because we all know what the answer is: You do not and as such it essentially wipes out your argument about computers.

 

[iluvmacs99]

@defjam

My conclusion to my last post was -- everyone has freewill and we have our equal rights to exercise that freewill to choose. Anyone here, I had observed thus far, had NOT encroached upon other people's free will to choose except you. You seemed to be bent to impose your freewill upon others and yet not actually noticing it.

Someone who is true in providing factual information should provide examples showcasing the limitations of the PPC system. That way, people will have a balanced measure of expectation of what they are getting into. Many of us did just that to illustrate those measures.

 

[Raging Dufus]

I made no such claim.

To be fair, I took liberties in paraphrasing, but - yes you did.

I asked this of others and I'll ask it of you (or anyone else who would like to answer): Do you have an in-depth knowledge of everything you own and use? In depth enough to know that if something should go wrong with it that you have the knowledge and skill to repair it? I have yet to receive an answer to this question, I suspect because the answer is no.

That's the last one, but there was at least one other instance. I don't like playing these games, so I'm not motivated to go find any more.

I feel differently and since the individual in question refuses to clarify I will continue to hold my opinion.

Why does that burden of proof rest with anyone but you?

You're needlessly provoking people here. Take you own advice and just stop, there's nothing more to be gained here.

 

[defjam]

My conclusion to my last post was -- everyone has freewill and we have our equal rights to exercise that freewill to choose. Anyone here, I had observed thus far, had NOT encroached upon other people's free will to choose except you. You seemed to be bent to impose your freewill upon others and yet not actually noticing it.

Oh, how? By making statements such as:

This advice is not aimed at the enthusiast, people who have PPC specifics constraints, or the participants of this forum.​

And:

No one, at least not that I've seen, is trying to convince anyone here to stop using PPC systems.​

Having made statement clearly in opposition to your conclusion how do you determine that I'm attempting to impose upon other's freewill to choose?

​

Someone who is true in providing factual information should provide examples showcasing the limitations of the PPC system. That way, people will have a balanced measure of expectation of what they are getting into. Many of us did just that to illustrate those measures.

Factual information has been provided and limitations have been shown.​

And:

video transcoding benchmark​

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To be fair, I took liberties in paraphrasing, but - yes you did.

OK, where?

That's the last one, but there was at least one other instance. I don't like playing these games, so I'm not motivated to go find any more.

Any other one's are no different because I know I didn't make any such statement.

Why does that burden of proof rest with anyone but you?

Perhaps you missed where I said:

I will continue to hold my opinion​

You're needlessly provoking people here. Take you own advice and just stop, there's nothing more to be gained here.

I didn't start this (and neither did the YouTuber) so I can I'm puzzled as to how you think I am needlessly provoking people here. I have been fully supportive of the people in this forum and their choice to choose and use whatever they deem appropriate for their needs. I have stated this on several occasions.

 

[Hughmac]

I think the OP (we all know his name so shall we show some respect and call him @Dronecatcher) put the videos up to show an opposing set of views and to provoke a discussion.

I even watched the videos right through which one person has admitted not doing.

It has turned into an all out argument of one person against the rest and become pointless because nobody is going to give ground.

So, as per the Dragons Den or Shark tank in the US, I'm not going to invest, and I'm out

Cheers, unwatching this thread now

Hugh

 

[iluvmacs99]

@defjam

The Youtuber did not -- he only ranted his opinion. Which was why Dronecatcher posted the video. And 16 pages later, you don't seem to get it and seemed bent to prove your point to be the absolute must be acceptable truth. If he did provide a balanced viewpoint, there wouldn't be these discussions. Maybe it would be the right thing to do morally, but a wrong thing in terms of a marketing standpoint. The Youtuber is at least astute in that mindset.

 

[defjam]

I think the OP (we all know his name so shall we show some respect and call him @Dronecatcher) put the videos up to show an opposing set of views and to provoke a discussion.

I even watched the videos right through which one person has admitted not doing.

That one person would be me and it was a statement made at the very start of this discussion because, at the time it was made, I didn't feel it had any importance to what I had to say at the time. I have subsequently gone back and watched the first video several times (as it's been the focus on the discussion).

It has turned into an all out argument of one person against the rest and become pointless because nobody is going to give ground.

Why does it have to be an argument? Why can't users of this forum just admit the YouTuber in the first video has a valid point (at least wrt to the users his video was targetting)?

 

[RogerWilco6502]

I'm unwatching this thread too. I enjoy a healthy debate, but this has gotten out of hand IMO

 

[defjam]

The Youtuber did not -- he only ranted his opinion. Which was why Dronecatcher posted the video. And 16 pages later, you don't seem to get it and seemed bent to prove your point to be the absolute must be acceptable truth. If he did provide a balanced viewpoint, there wouldn't be these discussions. Maybe it would be the right thing to do morally, but a wrong thing in terms of a marketing standpoint. The Youtuber is at least astute in that mindset.

I'd hardly classify the YouTubers video as a rant. It's my opinion he was giving sound advice. Yes, it is his opinion and I feel it's based on sound reasoning. As for proving my point the YouTubers reasoning is reality. Why can't anyone here just admit it?

 

[1042686]

The question becomes should they? If so then to what level? Where does it end? I don't have the time nor inclination to know how to service or repair everything I have. It's not for lack of being stupid but I have other things to do with my time than learn the details of how everything works and how to repair anything that would go wrong with it.

People on this forum are enthusiasts and enjoy tinkering, tweaking, configuring, and trying to get the most out of their systems. I think that's a great thing in that it keeps them from being scrapped. But the participants need to realize this is something they choose to do because it's something they want to do.

I asked this of others and I'll ask it of you (or anyone else who would like to answer): Do you have an in-depth knowledge of everything you own and use? In depth enough to know that if something should go wrong with it that you have the knowledge and skill to repair it? I have yet to receive an answer to this question, I suspect because the answer is no.
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Perhaps you're referring to a different video but the YouTuber of the first video of the OP was offering his opinion that for the average person a PPC based system doesn't make sense when there are more capable systems which can do the job with less hassle (not to mention, generally speaking, faster). It appears he made the video due to his viewers making inquiries about purchasing PPC based systems because, apparently, this YouTuber has created a number of videos of them.

Of course I know his opinion (of which I am in agreement) is not going to be well received in a forum dedicated to using these systems. Step outside of this forum and I think you'll start to find many people who are in agreement with it.

Oh gosh no. I don’t and there is zero possibility of me getting there right now as a middle aged married guy with two kids. My time is absolutely my #1 limited asset and as such goes to other priorities higher up on the totem pole.

Learning is an ideal I can’t afford (ie: like entering an engineering program). I’d love to do it but can’t afford the inflated pricetag & bankrupting debt (the money math, theidiotic costs involved & my remaining life span just doesn’t make sense) nor do I have the time right now. I mean sleep is a good thing lol. My tinkering is an expression of my desire to try and self teach a basic understanding of these principles since professional education is off the table. My tinkering is also a pragmatic one. **** is expensive! So in an effort to save money, I try to fix my stuff and scoop nice broken stuff & attempt to fix it for my own use.

But to your point, there is an absolute limit to this approach which for me as stated earlier is primarily my time. Part of the measure of intelligence is to know the limits of your own knowledge base & skillset within the framework of available time you have, and to know where your time is most efficiently placed within said framework.

when I was25 & single, I had loads of free time between work & music to indulge these areas of intellectual curiosity & cognitive challenges. Nowadays, not so much - I am absolutely forced to prioritize where/what my time & energy goes into.

Speaking of free intel machines I scored a decently new dell optiplex Ill be picking up this weekend. Anyhow, I hope this satisfactorily answers your question.

 

[iluvmacs99]

I'd hardly classify the YouTubers video as a rant. It's my opinion he was giving sound advice. Yes, it is his opinion and I feel it's based on sound reasoning. As for proving my point the YouTubers reasoning is reality. Why can't anyone here just admit it?

Because life itself doesn't behave in an absolute truth. Life is not only black and white, but truly a multitude shades of grey based on our living experiences. A famous quote -- "A wiseman once said nothing".