Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Status
Not open for further replies.
I made reference to your intent, not anything specific to what you wrote:

I'm not sure what the intent of the OP was...​

Since you have alleged I am misrepresenting what your intent was I asked you to specify exactly what it is because apparently I am misunderstanding it. If you refuse to specify exactly what it is then stop alleging I'm misrepresenting it.

I'm interested in having a discussion about the pros and cons of using a PPC in 2020. If you're not then feel free to ignore such discussion.

I've already stated my intent of posting the videos - for other's information/entertainment.
You have constantly inferred what my 'real intent' is and misquoted me eg:

"I have seen plenty of statements where you attempt to discredited him based on a single oversight (regarding the MSE setting)."

And:

"According to you this YouTuber is not qualified to be commenting on PPC systems."

Again, find the quotes where I said such.

I have and will partake in the discussion when I feel I have a contribution to make and/or when someone insists on misquoting me and/or superimposing their own view onto my intent.
 
Good job :) I used to have a Sony DCR-TRV140 back in the day which I Firewired up to my then new iMac G4.
Thanks! :)



The really cool thing about these cameras, IMO, is the audio/video input some had, so they could be used as a VCR or to digitalise analog video via FireWire.
At least two of my cameras have that functionality iirc :D
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheShortTimer
I've already stated my intent of posting the videos - for other's information/entertainment.
You have constantly inferred what my 'real intent' is and misquoted me eg:

"I have seen plenty of statements where you attempt to discredited him based on a single oversight (regarding the MSE setting)."

And:

"According to you this YouTuber is not qualified to be commenting on PPC systems."

Again, find the quotes where I said such.

I have and will partake in the discussion when I feel I have a contribution to make and/or when someone insists on misquoting me and/or superimposing their own view onto my intent.
Lack of clarification noted. As such I will no longer respond to your assertions I am misrepresenting your intentions.
 
Have you ever watched an episode of Peanuts? To an end user your explanation on how to use uMatrix sounds like the adults when they speak to the characters.

Yes, >>> I <<< know how uMatrix is supposed to work. But cookies, media, css, scripts, XHR, frame and other are confusing to the average user. What is addthrive.com, googletagemanager.com, quantserve.com and skimresources.com? These are all foreign domains to users. They're on Facebook and Facbook is what they expect to see. Not a bunch of other domains.

You can argue users should educate themselves a little on these concepts but the reality is they have no clue. That is the reality and no amount of arguing is going to change it.
Then, I think we are done with our discussion on this point.

The difference between my average user and yours is the openness and willingness to learn.

Your user won't change and I won't either.
 
Then, I think we are done with our discussion on this point.

The difference between my average user and yours is the openness and willingness to learn.

Your user won't change and I won't either.
I wouldn't consider such users average. I would consider them the exception.
 
I wouldn't consider such users average. I would consider them the exception.
I am going to be very blunt here.

If openness and willingness to learn are an exception, then I class the 'average' user (by your definition) as a stupid person. No matter how intelligent or accomplished you are, if you're not willing to learn, you're in that group. There's a Darwin Award just waiting for these people.

Fortunately, in my own experience, I've only run across ONE person like that in my life and she also suffered from the Dunning-Krueger effect.

Arrogant, hostile and proving I'm an SOB, I know. But if you're not willing to engage and I'm not being paid to assist you - you aren't worth my time.
 
I am going to be very blunt here.

If openness and willingness to learn are an exception, then I class the 'average' user (by your definition) as a stupid person. No matter how intelligent or accomplished you are, if you're not willing to learn, you're in that group. There's a Darwin Award just waiting for these people.
Then the majority of Apple's customers are stupid. Apple's core focus has always to bring technology to the masses in as easy to use way as possible. It is the foundation upon which the Macintosh was built and this concept flows through all of their subsequent products. So much so they have even gone so far as to simplify their Macintosh line (much to many people's disappointment) in order to maximize the ease of purchasing a Macintosh.

IMO stupid is the person who would rather spend time getting their tool to do what they want rather than buying the proper tool that just does it. I do not consider the person who just wants to use a tool as stupid. I see absolutely nothing wrong with a user who wants to turn on their computer and just use it with as little effort as possible. I fail to see why users of this forum think this is unreasonable.

Let me ask you (or anyone else who would like to answer) this: For the average user what benefit(s) do they gain by using a PPC based Macintosh over an older, Intel Macintosh? What benefit(s) do they get for taking the time to learn about configuring their PPC Macintosh so that it is tolerable to use on the Internet? FYI I am not interested in any answer which relates to hobbyists, enthusiasts, or those who have specific needs to use one.
 
Then the majority of Apple's customers are stupid. Apple's core focus has always to bring technology to the masses in as easy to use way as possible. It is the foundation upon which the Macintosh was built and this concept flows through all of their subsequent products. So much so they have even gone so far as to simplify their Macintosh line (much to many people's disappointment) in order to maximize the ease of purchasing a Macintosh.

I disagree (of course). Most of Apple's customers that I have personally interacted with have been more than interested in discovering more about how to use the apps and hardware that Apple provides. They want to get the most out of it. I applaud that because it means they aren't just using the tools mindlessly. They are curious about them

But that's only my experience.

IMO stupid is the person who would rather spend time getting their tool to do what they want rather than buying the proper tool that just does it. I do not consider the person who just wants to use a tool as stupid. I see absolutely nothing wrong with a user who wants to turn on their computer and just use it with as little effort as possible. I fail to see why users of this forum think this is unreasonable.

Because, a lot of those that are here are here because the 'proper' tool costs too much. I can afford a $25 G4 or a donation. I cannot afford a new MP or MBP - which would be the proper tool.

I don't see anything wrong with someone just turning on the computer and using it either. But I do see something wrong with viable computers being rejected out of hand simply because the user doesn't want to have to think about how to use his tools.

I don't know about you, but as a tool user (maybe just a tool, IDK) I want to know my tools. That way if they fail to work as expected I can either fix it or try something else. But if I don't know my tools, I don't even know where to start and quite possibly I may be using the tool wrong. But I wouldn't know that either if I didn't bother to learn something about it.

Let me ask you (or anyone else who would like to answer) this: For the average user what benefit(s) do they gain by using a PPC based Macintosh over an older, Intel Macintosh? What benefit(s) do they get for taking the time to learn about configuring their PPC Macintosh so that it is tolerable to use on the Internet? FYI I am not interested in any answer which relates to hobbyists, enthusiasts, or those who have specific needs to use one.
I gain a sense of accomplishment in making a system that everyone else sees as too old to do anything actually do what I want it to do. It's all about making the Mac perform for me. And I learn stuff.
 
I disagree (of course). Most of Apple's customers that I have personally interacted with have been more than interested in discovering more about how to use the apps and hardware that Apple provides. They want to get the most out of it. I applaud that because it means they aren't just using the tools mindlessly. They are curious about them
They want to learn how to use the tool to do their tasks, not learn how to work around artificially imposed limitations.

Because, a lot of those that are here are here because the 'proper' tool costs too much. I can afford a $25 G4 or a donation. I cannot afford a new MP or MBP - which would be the proper tool.
Where did I ever suggest buying a new MP or MBP? I believe I have specifically suggested older, Intel based Macintosh models. Of which they can be had for $25 or a donation. IMO price is not an acceptable reason (keeping in mind we're talking the average and not exception cases).

I don't see anything wrong with someone just turning on the computer and using it either. But I do see something wrong with viable computers being rejected out of hand simply because the user doesn't want to have to think about how to use his tools.
That's one of the reasons. These models, as has been demonstrated, can be substantially faster as well. Aside from edge cases I cannot see a downside to acquiring a similar cost, higher performing, less hassle Macintosh.

I don't know about you, but as a tool user (maybe just a tool, IDK) I want to know my tools. That way if they fail to work as expected I can either fix it or try something else. But if I don't know my tools, I don't even know where to start and quite possibly I may be using the tool wrong. But I wouldn't know that either if I didn't bother to learn something about it.
Where does this stop? Do you know how to repair your systems down to the component level? Do you hold this position to everything you use in life? For example: Do you know how every system in your vehicles work and how to repair them if the should fail? The average user doesn't care how their vehicles work. They want to get in, "turn" the key, and drive away. Are they stupid for being that way?

I gain a sense of accomplishment in making a system that everyone else sees as too old to do anything actually do what I want it to do. It's all about making the Mac perform for me. And I learn stuff.
This was the enthusiast answer I said I am not interested in. I am interested in an answer that is applicable to the average user.
 
I gain a sense of accomplishment in making a system that everyone else sees as too old to do anything actually do what I want it to do. It's all about making the Mac perform for me. And I learn stuff.

Same here and also many of the accomplishments reaffirm the continuing viability of older Macs that are supposedly useless or unfit for productive tasks.

The really cool thing about these cameras, IMO, is the audio/video input some had, so they could be used as a VCR or to digitalise analog video via FireWire.

I purchased a MiniDV camcorder specifically for this purpose so that I could use it as a pass-through device: especially for capturing the analogue video signals on my older consoles and other devices with the freeware program Vidi which automatically produces a pure DV file. It's also perfect for capturing in real time if you don't require HD quality.
 
Then I am stupid, as I actually enjoy getting an old machine to do the same stuff that a newer one can manage ;)
In several cases you're not. uMatrix works by disabling functionality, functionality which may be required in order to use a web site. A new machine doesn't have this limitation.
 
Last edited:
What benefit(s) do they get for taking the time to learn about configuring their PPC Macintosh so that it is tolerable to use on the Internet? FYI I am not interested in any answer which relates to hobbyists, enthusiasts, or those who have specific needs to use one.

While attempting to keep in line with my own words, and seeing as how this discussion isn't likely to end anytime soon after all, I'd like to input one cent on this point only...

For starters, they would begin to learn how a computer and the Internet works. This is especially relevant in a scenario where something has broken, and their favorite vendor (in this case Apple) has closed all their storefronts due to an event such as this one.

What are they to do? Throw the computer away because they can't find anyone to deal with their problems for them?

To me, a "stupid" person would embody someone who relies on a certain tool to build their very livelihood, yet has no idea how to repair or reconfigure said tool when something goes wrong with it, or the world, in this case both. Which ties directly back to user configuration, be it setup, service, upgrade, you name it, no difference.

A malfunctioning computer due to user negligence, a misbehaving website element due to an addon they made the decision to install, a blown tire, no matter what they are, there is never any excuse for a lack of personal responsibility.

I could understand such behavior by Johnny Appleseed back in the 1990's when home computing was still a rather alien concept to many, but now that we're in the fully digitized 2020's and still have virtually the same problems three decades later of user indifference, unwillingness to learn, and digital irresponsibility, I would at this point say that Johnny Appleseed, Joe Smith, Mary Jane, and all their grown children have no excuse and are borderline lazy for continuing to promote this charade of individual helplessness and dare I even say victimhood of the ever-moving technological ribbon always sucking the money out of those who insist for the newest product, year after year, and meanwhile the world wonders why it's always been in debt.

-

But to answer your question a little more directly, the benefit the average user receives is that they will often learn something in the process, enlightening them. Empowering them. Something they will never get many opportunities to do when everything is already made easy for them, when they don't need to flex any mental energy to accomplish any task at all.

So as the saying goes, "use it or lose it".

Then again, maybe that explains the annual hordes of consumerists every time the latest iPhone is out ...
 
Last edited:
They want to learn how to use the tool to do their tasks, not learn how to work around artificially imposed limitations.


Where did I ever suggest buying a new MP or MBP? I believe I have specifically suggested older, Intel based Macintosh models. Of which they can be had for $25 or a donation. IMO price is not an acceptable reason (keeping in mind we're talking the average and not exception cases).


That's one of the reasons. These models, as has been demonstrated, can be substantially faster as well. Aside from edge cases I cannot see a downside to acquiring a similar cost, higher performing, less hassle Macintosh.


Where does this stop? Do you know how to repair your systems down to the component level? Do you hold this position to everything you use in life? For example: Do you know how every system in your vehicles work and how to repair them if the should fail? The average user doesn't care how their vehicles work. They want to get in, "turn" the key, and drive away. Are they stupid for being that way?


This was the enthusiast answer I said I am not interested in. I am interested in an answer that is applicable to the average user.
Well, this was an interesting discussion, but we are on opposite sides on this and I don't see anything changing. You know my opinion and I know yours so I'm going to try and exit as gracefully as I can.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dronecatcher
For starters, they would begin to learn how a computer and the Internet works. This is especially relevant in a scenario where something has broken, and their favorite vendor (in this case Apple) has closed all their storefronts due to an event such as this one.
If they cared to learn they could just as easily do so with an Intel based Macintosh. But the reality is they don't care and I haven't seen a good case made as to why they should.

What are they to do? Throw the computer away because they can't find anyone to deal with their problems for them?
The discussion was about acquiring one, not discarding an existing one.

To me, a "stupid" person would embody someone who relies on a certain tool to build their very livelihood, yet has no idea how to repair or reconfigure said tool when something goes wrong with it, or the world, in this case both. Which ties directly back to user configuration, be it setup, service, upgrade, you name it, no difference.
Do you fully understand everything to goes into your livelihood? Do you know how to tweak, tune, and repair every aspect of your vehicle? Same for your house? Heater? Plumbing? housing electrical? Audio? TV? Is it your opinion everyone should know details about every aspect of their lives?

A malfunctioning computer due to user negligence, a misbehaving website element due to an addon they made the decision to install, a blown tire, no matter what they are, there is never any excuse for a lack of personal responsibility.

So this applies to you in every aspect of your life? You need to step back and realize the average user doesn't care about the computers. To them it's just another tool. You'[re an enthusiast, they are not.

I could understand such behavior by Johnny Appleseed back in the 1990's when home computing was still a rather alien concept to many, but now that we're in the fully digitized 2020's and still have virtually the same problems three decades later of user indifference, unwillingness to learn, and digital irresponsibility, I would at this point say that Johnny Appleseed, Joe Smith, Mary Jane, and all their grown children have no excuse and are borderline lazy for continuing to promote this charade of individual helplessness and dare I even say victimhood of the ever-moving technological ribbon always sucking the money out of those who insist for the newest product, year after year, and meanwhile the world wonders why it's always been in debt.
The recommendation wasn't for the newest product. It was for the most suitable product. Given cost is not a constraint why should the end user purchase an older, generally less capable product? Keep in mind the knowledge you're advocating is necessitated by the lower performance of PPC systems. Lower performance which, as demonstrated in this very thread, is considerably lower (at least in the three benchmarks performed). You're expecting the average user to pay the same amount for less performance and more hassle for what...so they can be better informed as to how computers and the Internet works? Something they care little, if anything, about? That makes no sense.

But to answer your question a little more directly, the benefit the average user receives is that they will often learn something in the process. Something they will never get many opportunities to do when everything is already made easy for them, when they don't need to flex any mental energy to accomplish any task at all.
Again, they don't care. You can argue they should or should not all you want. The reality is they don't. And, like knowing how a vehicle works, I'm not sure they should.

So as the saying goes, "use it or lose it".

Then again, maybe that explains the annual hordes of consumers every time the newest iPhone is out ...
I think this is more fashion / keeping up with the Joneses and not so much operability.
[automerge]1585178742[/automerge]
Well, this was an interesting discussion, but we are on opposite sides on this and I don't see anything changing. You know my opinion and I know yours so I'm going to try and exit as gracefully as I can.
Which makes me question the OPs motives for posting these videos. I assume he was aware nothing would change so what was the intent? Unfortunately he won't say.
 
In several cases you're not. uMatrix works by disabling functionality, functionality which may be required in order to use a web site. A new machine doesn't have this limitation.
Oh, it's all about uMatrix is it? I'm sorry to have jumped in then as I don't even use it ;)

Cheers :)

Hugh
 
Oh, it's all about uMatrix is it? I'm sorry to have jumped in then as I don't even use it ;)
It's not entirely about uMatrix. It's about the reality that in order to use a PPC Macintosh today one typically needs to make compromises. Whether that be installing an extension which allows you to selectively disable / enable certain functionality, decrease the size / frame rate of a video, accept increased processing times, etc.

Enthusiasts in this forum think the average user should accept these compromises for what? Knowledge in something they care little to nothing about?

I am not an anti-PPC guy. I didn't start this thread nor did the YouTuber in the first video of the individual who did. No one, at least not that I've seen, is trying to convince anyone here to stop using PPC systems. No one is being critical of those who choose to do so. No one is being critical of their desire to have a deeper understanding of the tools they use. Given all this I have no idea why the OP started this thread if not to be critical of the YouTuber who recommended the average user buy an older Intel based Macintosh instead.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: yurc and sparty411
Which makes me question the OPs motives for posting these videos. I assume he was aware nothing would change so what was the intent? Unfortunately he won't say.

I have said several times - you just choose not to listen and invent your own paranoid delusional interpretation instead.

Given all this I have no idea why the OP started this thread if not to be critical of the YouTuber who recommended the average user buy an older Intel based Macintosh instead.

And there you go again.
 
I have said several times - you just choose not to listen and invent your own paranoid delusional interpretation instead.
I have said several times that if I am in error then you're welcome to correct it by specifically state what your intention was. You have refused to do so. Therefore I have no alternative upon which to base my conclusion than what I have read in this forum. If you disagree with my conclusion you're welcome to correct it. Until then my conclusion will not change.
 
  • Love
Reactions: sparty411
You have refused to do so.

Then I suggest you go back through my answers to you - either today or previously in this thread. You simply choose to ignore them, then repeat the same same falsehoods again and again - you keep telling the forum about things I've said but fall silent when I ask you to produce quotes - it's quite simple really, find these things I've said or apologise for misrepresenting me.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: eyoungren
If they cared
the reality is they don't care
the average user doesn't care
they care little
Again, they don't care.
they care little to nothing


I will likely never get anywhere useful with this debate, and I realize that this discussion is at this point largely a waste of time for reasons already stated. So instead of being sweaty and frustrated, I believe it to be better to simply laugh.

Have a great night, all. :)
 
Last edited:
What if we turn this into a PPC appreciation thread (a sort of "what did you do with your PPC Mac today?" sort of thing)? I feel we could be a lot more productive spreading positivity rather than endlessly debating this. :)
 
You know what I find to be an interesting intersect in this debate of ideas is how society’s use & consumption of the internet is very similar if not identical to established municipal service like electricity, TV
or radio. So similar in fact that the same services, repair/refurb cottage & hardware brand retail industries have grown to support it.

I think it is an interesting lense to view the two primary arguments discussed, specifically when drilling down on judgements of society’s attitudes & average use of the technology.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: eyoungren
You know what I find to be an interesting intersect in this debate of ideas is how society’s use & consumption of the internet is very similar if not identical to established municipal service like electricity, TV
or radio. So similar in fact that the same services, repair/refurb cottage & hardware brand retail industries have grown to support it.

I think it is an interesting lense to view the two primary arguments discussed, specifically when drilling down on judgements of society’s attitudes & average use.
I had to explain to the cable guy once what a 24-port switch was. He'd never seen one. :rolleyes:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.