YouTube Accuses T-Mobile of Downgrading All Video With Binge On Program

[DEMinSoCAL]

T-Mobile MAKES IT CLEAR when they marketed binge on. This isn't a tough concept to grasp so you re either being disingenuous or lying. One or the other.

As a TMobile customer, it ACTUALLY ISN'T CLEAR that Binge On lowers the quality of non-apporved video sources. I, as a general consumer that has read articles and seen the ads, believe that if I watch a video from any of the "approved" video sources, it will be at a lower res and not count towards my data. I have not seen, anywhere, that with Binge On enabled, that ALL VIDEO sources will be downgraded.

Is it in the fine print? Could be. Has it been made CLEAR through advertisements? Not at all.

(I'm assuming that it actually does downgrade all video to 480p, not just partner sources).

 

[DEMinSoCAL]

Yes it was. This was literally said in the announcement keynote. Damn there are some really uninformed people on this board.

Except for you, the world is full of imperfect people.

 

[rjlawrencejr]

BingeOn should have been off by default. T-Mobile is trying to encourage people to stay on BingeOn with a 3 month of unlimited data if staying on BingeOn. I have serious concerns about net neutrality and BingeOn, despite T-Mobile assurances. If people love BingeOn so much they would rush to turn BingeOn On if it were defaulted to off. Anyway, I am keeping it on for now because of the unlimited data, but I am thinking on turning it off soon. The idea is not bad, but I don't like how it has been implemented and marketed, plus the net neutrality concerns.

I was one of those that did rush to turn it on only to discover it was already on by default. I did a mental happy dance. What I did not realize until reading this article was that all videos are downgraded. Perhaps I'm not the videophile like some of you here, but this is great news! (Doing another happy dance with back flips).

 

[rjlawrencejr]

This crap is exactly why I'll never have a budget plan on a budget network with stupid gimmicks and a network constituency of idiots that "didn't know," or couldn't read the fine print so they're "suddenly surprised."

However YouTube has a case. T-Mobile should only throttle signed-on binge watch partners.

I think the earlier commenter was referencing your liberal use ad-hominem attacks.

It appears both you and I are seeing the issue through our own biases because I see quite a few commenters who feel like me and don't see this as a problem but a benefit. I guess we would a neutral (no pun intended) party to perform a content analysis.

Believe me, the constituency of so-called idiots is on every carrier, not just those that are friendlier to the pocketbook.

 

[grawk]

How uncool of t-mobile to trick us by giving us a benefit for free, but thoughtlessly giving us a way to reverse it if we want the higher bandwidth version that we pay for.

It's pretty remarkable that a company does something that both lowers our costs and improves performance, but people still complain. I do suspect most of the complainers don't actually have t-mobile.

 

[chromite]

How uncool of t-mobile to trick us by giving us a benefit for free, but thoughtlessly giving us a way to reverse it if we want the higher bandwidth version that we pay for.

It's pretty remarkable that a company does something that both lowers our costs and improves performance, but people still complain. I do suspect most of the complainers don't actually have t-mobile.

I'm on Verizon, a company that actually has coverage and decent speeds. That's besides the point. T-Mobile is degrading video from sources that aren't agreeing to have their video degraded and T-Mobile does not make this clear. Nowhere in their advertisements does it say that YouTube video will also be degraded.

If T-Mo wants to degrade video specifically from companies that agree to it, then fine. But don't just flip a switch that automatically downgrades all video. This seems like a major problem that the FCC is definitely going to get involved in.

 

[Cndnmax]

I'm on Verizon, a company that actually has coverage and decent speeds. That's besides the point. T-Mobile is degrading video from sources that aren't agreeing to have their video degraded and T-Mobile does not make this clear. Nowhere in their advertisements does it say that YouTube video will also be degraded.

If T-Mo wants to degrade video specifically from companies that agree to it, then fine. But don't just flip a switch that automatically downgrades all video. This seems like a major problem that the FCC is definitely going to get involved in.

Maybe you should use google to look up people's comparison to Binge-on video and uncompressed video before you go commenting on something u have no knowledge of. 90% of the users will not see a damn difference except videos loading faster (yes faster!!) and less data usage. YouTube downgrades video without the users consent or ability to reverse it based on network speeds, tmobile Gives the user the option to turn it off. Funny how YouTube would have an issue with it but Netflix and other providers only see it as a positive. I mean I'd be much more concerned with quality when watching movies vs random home made videos of cats doing stupid things.

 

[lordofthereef]

I can say that, in OUR case, this is most definitely not true. My son plays youtube content in the back seat of the car and it is crystal clear 1080p. Play something through a Binge On partner and the quality is noticeably different. You can also se that YT is using much more data per hour than does Netflix. This is easily verifiable through the bult in data usage tracker in iOS (you just need to remember to clear it after each test)

The last I read word about why YTwasn't on the binge on list was because not all of their videos are delivered in the same exact way and so TMO's servers have trouble identifying (some of) the traffic as video, though they were partnering in fixing this.

 

[lordofthereef]

I'm on Verizon, a company that actually has coverage and decent speeds. That's besides the point.

Which has me scratching m head about why you mentioned it in the first place. It only takes away from the credibility of your argument.

How long ago was this? Currently T-mobile has better coverage than just about anyone else, it is even beginning to rival Verizon and with faster data speeds. But this is extremely recent, probably within the past 3 months or so.

TMO trails ATT in New England rurals areas (we just switched to TMO from ATT). Verizon was worse than ATT here too when my wife had them (three years ago so its less of an accurate comparison).

TMO has grown a lot but it still has a lot more growing to do to be called on par with the other two. If you're in a heaviy populated area you're probably set. It's why we ultimately jumped ship. If I go somewhere that I really NEED reception I can buy a gophone sim and have that. No sense paying $80 a month more (three lines) so I can have reception in the middle of nowhere the .1% of the time I go there.

 

[Michael Goff]

Maybe you should use google to look up people's comparison to Binge-on video and uncompressed video before you go commenting on something u have no knowledge of. 90% of the users will not see a damn difference except videos loading faster (yes faster!!) and less data usage. YouTube downgrades video without the users consent or ability to reverse it based on network speeds, tmobile Gives the user the option to turn it off. Funny how YouTube would have an issue with it but Netflix and other providers only see it as a positive. I mean I'd be much more concerned with quality when watching movies vs random home made videos of cats doing stupid things.

Isn't Netflix a partner, though?

 

[lordofthereef]

Strange, two important parts about "Binge On":

1. I haven't noticed any difference in video quality between WiFi and LTE YouTube videos on T-Mobile. (And yes, I have "Binge On" turned on.)

2. You have to explicitly enabled Binge On. It isn't on by default.

Ours was on by default. I even called about it and was told that it would be automatically enabled for all Non unlimited data users November 20th. Sure enough, after checking (I checked a day or two later since I forgot) it was automatically enabled.

Isn't Netflix a partner, though?

They are. And TMO is supposedly in works with partnering with YT, TMO just can't identify 100% of YT's traffic due to how they serve their videos, which has me scratching my head about these complants. Perhaps something went sour with their collab.

 

[jpn]

Net neutrality doesn't cover cellphone internet anyway, so all of this is kinda moot. But given that the customer controls it, there's not a violation regardless.

hi
i did not know this. thanks.
if this is true, the rule should be and definitely will be changed, as the world (except the USA) has for the last few years been accessing the internet more over mobile devices than computers, and now since the middle of this year (2015) even in the USA this is also the case.

 

[Cndnmax]

Isn't Netflix a partner, though?

Yes that's my point. Why would a company that solely provides full movie and tv show streaming agree to Binge-on if the quality was so horrendous. That move would cost them customers. Yes there is a slight difference when comparing both side by side but it's a difference you won't even notice in real world playback.
To the people that complain about choppy and blurry video, it's because your connection is not ideal (yes Tmobile does not have the most reliable connection) and YouTube or whoever is further downgrading the video to limit buffering-this is nothing new!

 

[lordofthereef]

IF this is happening (and again it's a big IF because I know I haven't seen it) this is absolutely a net neutrality issue, however for reasons different from what people here are saying.

If ALL video is downgraded, then ALL video should cost the consumer nothing in data use. As it stands, or as YT is accusing TMO of doing, only content providers who have partnered with TMO see the benefit of their consumers not using data. The video feed is the same quality as that of everyone else (since it has been degraded), however it still costs the consumer data. So all things are no longer equal.

The question is, if TMO is downgrading ALL video, why require the content provider to opt in at all? This would be a non-issue if TMO just gave users the binge on option that would allow them to voluntarily downgrade all video files/sources, the trade off being that data not counting against their data allotment.

 

[Michael Goff]

Ours was on by default. I even called about it and was told that it would be automatically enabled for all Non unlimited data users November 20th. Sure enough, after checking (I checked a day or two later since I forgot) it was automatically enabled.


They are. And TMO is supposedly in works with partnering with YT, TMO just can't identify 100% of YT's traffic due to how they serve their videos, which has me scratching my head about these complants. Perhaps something went sour with their collab.

I wonder if one side is to blame for this.

Yes that's my point. Why would a company that solely provides full movie and tv show streaming agree to Binge-on if the quality was so horrendous. That move would cost them customers. Yes there is a slight difference when comparing both side by side but it's a difference you won't even notice in real world playback.
To the people that complain about choppy and blurry video, it's because your connection is not ideal (yes Tmobile does not have the most reliable connection) and YouTube or whoever is further downgrading the video to limit buffering-this is nothing new!

Because Netflix already has the money. YT has to rely on advertising. I'm guessing the problem has something to do with the way ads load. Neither company really cares about the way their video looks as long as they get their money.

IF this is happening (and again it's a big IF because I know I haven't seen it) this is absolutely a net neutrality issue, however for reasons different from what people here are saying.

If ALL video is downgraded, then ALL video should cost the consumer nothing in data use. As it stands, or as YT is accusing TMO of doing, only content providers who have partnered with TMO see the benefit of their consumers not using data. The video feed is the same quality as that of everyone else (since it has been degraded), however it still costs the consumer data. So all things are no longer equal.

The question is, if TMO is downgrading ALL video, why require the content provider to opt in at all? This would be a non-issue if TMO just gave users the binge on option that would allow them to voluntarily downgrade all video files/sources, the trade off being that data not counting against their data allotment.

I'm guessing this all has to do with whatever method of encryption TMo has come up with. They want others to use it or no free stuff for them.

 

[lordofthereef]

I'm guessing this all has to do with whatever method of encryption TMo has come up with. They want others to use it or no free stuff for them.

If everything in the complaint is true, then TMO is subjecting their encryption to all video anyway, and apparently successfully (ads are still loading, etc). Realistically I do not know what to think here. I am leaning towards TMO NOT downgrading videos for two reasons.

1. My own anecdotal evidence
2. They would have zero incentive to ask people to opt in if they downgrade video regardless. It defeats the purpose of opting in.

 

[Cndnmax]

Because Netflix already has the money. YT has to rely on advertising. I'm guessing the problem has something to do with the way ads load. Neither company really cares about the way their video looks as long as they get their money.

You're assuming that the current downgrade is blocking ads-highly unlikely. We're not even sure if partners and non partners are using the same compression. Although, there is something from the way YouTube provides videos that keeps them from joining as a partner. Not being a partner has surely affected their customer base in some way or another which is most likely the main reason they object to the program at the moment.

 

[jpn]

As a TMobile customer, it ACTUALLY ISN'T CLEAR that Binge On lowers the quality of non-apporved video sources. I, as a general consumer that has read articles and seen the ads, believe that if I watch a video from any of the "approved" video sources, it will be at a lower res and not count towards my data. I have not seen, anywhere, that with Binge On enabled, that ALL VIDEO sources will be downgraded.
been made CLEAR through advertisements? Not at all.

(I'm assuming that it actually does downgrade all video to 480p, not just partner sources).

hi
i was interested in all of this so i went to the T-Mobile information sources.
although its couched in marketing blurb and therefore not really easy to understand at first, what is clear in the light of this controversy is the following:
1 T Mobile does optimize all streams that it can identify and/or that it has been requested to optimize by its corporate partners or by its user base.
2 In the case of YouTube, in a response to YouTube's supposed complaint a few days ago, TMo said that current inability to identify YouTube's stream as a YouTube stream was the reason why YouTube video was being optimized.
3 YouTube doesn't want to be a part of the optimization. But unless its streams can be positively identified as coming from YouTube, then its product will be optimized.
4 There are some streaming services, such as HBO, where it doesn't optimize the stream when accessed through certain providers that base their service on being able to provide a higher quality stream.

So, its very clear that TMo has been able to find a middle ground that the FCC has in fact found to be not infringing net neutrality.

 

[keatth]

Well I turned binge on OFF since I have unlimited data

 

[chromite]

hi
i was interested in all of this so i went to the T-Mobile information sources.
although its couched in marketing blurb and therefore not really easy to understand at first, what is clear in the light of this controversy is the following:
1 T Mobile does optimize all streams that it can identify and/or that it has been requested to optimize by its corporate partners or by its user base.
2 In the case of YouTube, in a response to YouTube's supposed complaint a few days ago, TMo said that current inability to identify YouTube's stream as a YouTube stream was the reason why YouTube video was being optimized.
3 YouTube doesn't want to be a part of the optimization. But unless its streams can be positively identified as coming from YouTube, then its product will be optimized.
4 There are some streaming services, such as HBO, where it doesn't optimize the stream when accessed through certain providers that base their service on being able to provide a higher quality stream.

So, its very clear that TMo has been able to find a middle ground that the FCC has in fact found to be not infringing net neutrality.

The FCC will undoubtedly shut down binge on. It's wrong on so many levels.

 

[\-V-/]

Well I turned binge on OFF since I have unlimited data

Good for you?

The FCC will undoubtedly shut down binge on. It's wrong on so many levels.

How is it wrong exactly?

 

[chromite]

Good for you?


How is it wrong exactly?

T-Mo has taken it upon itself to degrade video without consent. What's next? Optimizing website speed for select partners?

 

[hashholly]

T-Mo has taken it upon itself to degrade video without consent. What's next? Optimizing website speed for select partners?

If its a problem turn it off. I really don't see what the big deal is. If anything, T-Mobile shouldn't have turned it on by default, but its pretty simple to turn off.....if you want everything to be in full quality then turn it off....fine with "DVD quality" turn it on.

People make such big deals out of such little things.

 

[Michael Goff]

If its a problem turn it off. I really don't see what the big deal is. If anything, T-Mobile shouldn't have turned it on by default, but its pretty simple to turn off.....if you want everything to be in full quality then turn it off....fine with "DVD quality" turn it on.

People make such big deals out of such little things.

I look at posts like this and wonder if it'd be the same if this was AT&T, Verizon, or some cable company. The answer is probably no. People like TMo, for whatever reason, and have decided that it doesn't matter what they do.

 

[keatth]

Good for me indeed you snarky sob