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iPod Zune Out
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Well, being 24 now, lets say I listen to music for another 50 years. At $15/month, that's $9000. And while we're at it, for Beatles/Tool/Zeppelin et. al. fans, subscription services just aren't good enough. If you don't really appreciate the music you listen to, go ahead and get your million songs for $15. I'll stick with the 7000 songs that I actually like.
Zune sells REALLY bad
spiegel.de, a german enewspaper says, zune has been sold 1 Times at Union Square, San Francisco. the report continues in listing other markets where the Zune hasn't been sold significantly more.
The also asked some sellers to show them the Zune, and they mostly answered, that they don't know what that is, zune.
I think its embarrassing for microsoft...
spiegel.de, a german enewspaper says, zune has been sold 1 Times at Union Square, San Francisco. the report continues in listing other markets where the Zune hasn't been sold significantly more.
The also asked some sellers to show them the Zune, and they mostly answered, that they don't know what that is, zune.
I think its embarrassing for microsoft...
I'm not a Zune fan, and couldn't even buy one if I was (since I'm a Mac user and don't own a PC), but I'm a little disappointed at the typical Mac-elitist attitude towards the Zune.
Ok, so the Zune's not perfect, but what product is? It's a first generation portable music player, so it's going to have bugs.
What people are underestimating is the Microsoft factor.
Someone said earlier that Microsoft is no greater a threat to Apple in this market than Sony, Samsung and Dell. Uh, really? So how come those three companies didn't launch huge marketing assualts with their "iPod Killers?" Granted, there was some advertising, but Microsoft's pulling an all out blitz. Also, I don't recall all the major media outlets having significant coverage of those competitor's product launches. Anything with the name "Microsoft" associated with it is a big deal. Finally, none of those companies are as determined as Microsoft is when breaking into new markets; they didn't have a war chest put aside with which they could lose money for up to 5 years (as Microsoft has said its willing to do with the Zune), nor do they have a proven track record of entering markets with a 0% share and becoming one of the dominant players, as Microsoft has done more than once.
I think the biggest disadvantage at this point is the compatibility issue. It's bad for Zune that it won't play music people already own. But other than that, I see any of its shortcomings as minor.
1) It's size. Yes, it's bigger than the iPod, but it's not really big or bulky... I don't think people will care about the slightly larger weight.
2) WiFi - I can't believe people are saying this a negative! If Apple implemented this same WiFi in the iPod, we'd be slobbering. It doesn't matter what limitations Microsoft has chosen to apply to it, the fact of the matter is the Zune is WiFi enabled and this opens the door to numerous firmware and software updates in the future that can take advantage of this in ways it currently does not.
3) The Microsoft factor. As incredibly as it sounds (and as unfathomable as it is to me), there are people out there that are just as rabid about Microsoft as we are about Apple. This product comes with an instant cult following. The following has grown by leaps and bounds since the release of the XBox, where Microsoft is seen as a cooler alternative to Sony's Playstation and Nintendo's kid-friendly DS and Wii.
4) Apple's market share. As much as being the leader in the industry helps it, it will also hurt Apple when people want to try something new. You may say that there have been alternatives to the iPod for years and people have always flocked to Apple, but never before has an alternative been shoved down their throats the way Zune is right now. And especially in the world of music and teens - where individually has a lot of cachet - not having an iPod may become cooler than being a sheep.
Is it a sure thing that the Zune will do well? Of course not.
Do I think Microsoft will eventually become the dominant force in the portable music market? I highly doubt it.
Will the Zune be a viable alternative to the iPod, which will go to at least a second and third generation, and probably spawn a flash based player, gathering a limited following and as much as 25% of the market? I think it's likely.
Remember, it's Microsoft we're talking about. We know their products are flawed and we know there's better options, but people still use them anyway.
Don't underestimate their ability to bully their way into the marketplace.
Ok, so the Zune's not perfect, but what product is? It's a first generation portable music player, so it's going to have bugs.
What people are underestimating is the Microsoft factor.
Someone said earlier that Microsoft is no greater a threat to Apple in this market than Sony, Samsung and Dell. Uh, really? So how come those three companies didn't launch huge marketing assualts with their "iPod Killers?" Granted, there was some advertising, but Microsoft's pulling an all out blitz. Also, I don't recall all the major media outlets having significant coverage of those competitor's product launches. Anything with the name "Microsoft" associated with it is a big deal. Finally, none of those companies are as determined as Microsoft is when breaking into new markets; they didn't have a war chest put aside with which they could lose money for up to 5 years (as Microsoft has said its willing to do with the Zune), nor do they have a proven track record of entering markets with a 0% share and becoming one of the dominant players, as Microsoft has done more than once.
I think the biggest disadvantage at this point is the compatibility issue. It's bad for Zune that it won't play music people already own. But other than that, I see any of its shortcomings as minor.
1) It's size. Yes, it's bigger than the iPod, but it's not really big or bulky... I don't think people will care about the slightly larger weight.
2) WiFi - I can't believe people are saying this a negative! If Apple implemented this same WiFi in the iPod, we'd be slobbering. It doesn't matter what limitations Microsoft has chosen to apply to it, the fact of the matter is the Zune is WiFi enabled and this opens the door to numerous firmware and software updates in the future that can take advantage of this in ways it currently does not.
3) The Microsoft factor. As incredibly as it sounds (and as unfathomable as it is to me), there are people out there that are just as rabid about Microsoft as we are about Apple. This product comes with an instant cult following. The following has grown by leaps and bounds since the release of the XBox, where Microsoft is seen as a cooler alternative to Sony's Playstation and Nintendo's kid-friendly DS and Wii.
4) Apple's market share. As much as being the leader in the industry helps it, it will also hurt Apple when people want to try something new. You may say that there have been alternatives to the iPod for years and people have always flocked to Apple, but never before has an alternative been shoved down their throats the way Zune is right now. And especially in the world of music and teens - where individually has a lot of cachet - not having an iPod may become cooler than being a sheep.
Is it a sure thing that the Zune will do well? Of course not.
Do I think Microsoft will eventually become the dominant force in the portable music market? I highly doubt it.
Will the Zune be a viable alternative to the iPod, which will go to at least a second and third generation, and probably spawn a flash based player, gathering a limited following and as much as 25% of the market? I think it's likely.
Remember, it's Microsoft we're talking about. We know their products are flawed and we know there's better options, but people still use them anyway.
Don't underestimate their ability to bully their way into the marketplace.
Microsoft has already demonstrated that they can muscle their way in with things like Xbox, but the road is also littered with significant failures. UltimateTV, WebTV, PlaysForSure need I mention Bob.
Sometimes they get it right (or at least right enough) with practice, Windows CE may be usable and even dominant now, but V1.0 was rather pathetic.
B
And that would be a fine rationalization if this was early 2002, or if the Zune was one of the first MP3 players. But it's 2006, and the iPod has been out for over 5 years. When you're going up against something that's been so intrenched and finely honed as the iPod, you're going to have to do better than "It's a frst generation player, it's going to have bugs"
The only legitimate reason you gave above is the Beatles/Tool/Zeppelin thing. Yes, iTunes has exclusive deals from some artists so that is undeniably a drawback of any of the existing subscription services.
But your other arguments don't hold much weight in my opinion. So you have 7000 songs. To get those songs legally (either through iTunes or by buying the CDs) would cost you about $7000. So the only way you can make the subscription services seem more expensive is by comparing the cost of a subscription over FIFTY YEARS. C'mon man, that's utterly pathetic.
I'll state the obvious flaw in this argument: with a subscription service I could download those 7000 songs within the FIRST MONTH, and be enjoying that music for the next 50 years. In the a-la-carte purchase model, most people would take many, many years to buy that much music.
Furthermore, I don't see the argument that I "don't really appreciate the music" by preferring a subscription service. And saying that I want my "million songs" is just a straw man argument. Why would you make such a snarky comment that you know is not true? Neither I nor *anyone* would want a library of 1,000,000 songs, nor do most people have enough hard drive space for more thant 1% of that number.
So let's work with a *real* number. Since you *YOURSELF* threw out the number of 7000 songs, let's just round that up to 10,000 songs. Can we both agree that it's not unreasonable for most people to desire a collection of 10,000 songs? I believe most people could come up with a list of 10,000 songs that they "really appreciate". By your own calculation, within your *entire remaining lifetime* the cumulative cost of a subscription service is still less than the $10,000 cost of purchasing those 10,000 songs. But as I said above, the difference with a subscription service is that you can have that music in your library *immediately*, rather than buying it slowly over time.
But, the technical problems still remain with the current subscription services. I like the model, but the actual implementations leave a lot to be desired.
Furthemore, I have around 3000 songs in my current library and to be honest, I have to use Smart Playlists just to find stuff. I have more than 7 days of music and it's getting to the point where I can forget what I own.
I can listen to a track and have absolutely no idea who the artist is, what album it's from, or how I even got it. So, I think there's a limit to how much music one can consume before it becomes a measure of conspicuous consumption rather than true musical enjoyment.
Also, I buy lots of CDs for around $8 now for older stuff, so I'm spending about $.70 per track (albums are typically between 10 and 13 tracks, so there's some sloppy averages in that number). Not to mention free songs, stuff from eMusic, stuff from friends, and numerous CDs I've resold.
In reality, the subcription service is lousy when compared to physical media, but it becomes increasingly useful when compared to iTunes $.99 per track. But, for consumers the $.99 per track is still easier to deal with.
So you agree with me- without Beatles/Tool/Zeppelin, no music collection is complete?
That's reason enough for me to not go subscription, but lets keep this going for fun, shall we?What it comes down to is that for most people on this forum (read:not 12 year old girls), they already own plenty of music. If you can name a couple thousand songs that you want RIGHT NOW, then subsription is for you. For me (and most people here I'm sure), music purchasing has been a hobby for a decade or two, and will continue to be for many more. As a result, we have already built large collections of music. There are not 180 new songs I want per year- I'm lucky if I buy 3 or 4 CDs/year these days. As a result, I'll take my $40 in music costs per year over $180, and plenty of people will. The real issue here is I'm saying that your blanket statement that subscription models are the only that make sense was wrong. Good for you, but plenty bad for most.
While we're at it then, if you're spending $9000 for a lifetime of subscription and I'm paying $9000 (ok, fine) for all of my purchases, aren't I happier owning the music? It sure is nice to lend CDs to people and not have to buy crappy mp3 players...
My big issue (other than the recurring monthly cost, especially for a guy like me who maybe buys 1-2 CD's per year...) is the lack of control. In a subscription service you're tied to the service provider. You buy a CD, you own it, forever. You buy a subscription, who's to say they're not going to start raising the fees, making some songs premium-subscriber only, ... if they decide for whatever reason to no longer offer a particular song on the subscription basis, you're stuck. With the CD, you own it, regardless of when it may go out of print or shoot up in price.
I hate the way my cell phone provider has been treating me. I chose them specifically because they offered per-second billing and the best roaming/long distance rates among its competitors. Over the past few years they have been slowly increasing the prices of their services and now everyone's at the same high price level. There's nothing I can do if I want cell service other than to put up with this crap.
Zune experience today
Went to a local Best Buy which had three Zune (would not Zune be the plural of Zune?) on display. There was no signage at all, other than the price tags. One had battery power so I messed with it a little. The interface is actually pretty nice. The left menu button is handy to get back to menus past. THe screen looked good and is substantially bigger (visually anyway) than the iPod 30gb next to it. Fit and finish was good enough for American Motors quality control... all three had some pretty bad flash (excess untrimmed plastic) at the edges/joints. It really is pretty thick and somewhat of a handful. Frankly, esthetically, they are nothing special at all.
At this point salesperson shows up. I ask if they have sold any Zune. Nope. Do they have any accessories? Not that he knows of. Is there any sales literature about Zune. Nope. Has he ever used one besides the display units? Nope. Can he tell me anything about the Zune? "It works with windows" and "It's the same price as an iPod." Can I use it with songs I bought at iTunes "I'm not really sure..." Is there anyone else in the store who is a little more knowledgable about Zune? "No. I'm it." OK. Thanks for your help...
Went to a local Best Buy which had three Zune (would not Zune be the plural of Zune?) on display. There was no signage at all, other than the price tags. One had battery power so I messed with it a little. The interface is actually pretty nice. The left menu button is handy to get back to menus past. THe screen looked good and is substantially bigger (visually anyway) than the iPod 30gb next to it. Fit and finish was good enough for American Motors quality control... all three had some pretty bad flash (excess untrimmed plastic) at the edges/joints. It really is pretty thick and somewhat of a handful. Frankly, esthetically, they are nothing special at all.
At this point salesperson shows up. I ask if they have sold any Zune. Nope. Do they have any accessories? Not that he knows of. Is there any sales literature about Zune. Nope. Has he ever used one besides the display units? Nope. Can he tell me anything about the Zune? "It works with windows" and "It's the same price as an iPod." Can I use it with songs I bought at iTunes "I'm not really sure..." Is there anyone else in the store who is a little more knowledgable about Zune? "No. I'm it." OK. Thanks for your help...
A couple more observations
Of the Zune I handled: The white looks white. The black looks charcoal. The brown looks like a horrible mistake. To my eye it is just.... ewwww... I am at a loss for words... Brown tending toward green... oy vey...
The "scroll wheel" works ok but it is certainly less accurate/fast than a real scroll wheel. And it is quite small, I thought. Zune has a "hold" switch at the top that is made of cheap-feeling plastic.
Going through the menus made me realize how shallow the function list of Zune. I suppose most consumers might not notice that.
Of the Zune I handled: The white looks white. The black looks charcoal. The brown looks like a horrible mistake. To my eye it is just.... ewwww... I am at a loss for words... Brown tending toward green... oy vey...
The "scroll wheel" works ok but it is certainly less accurate/fast than a real scroll wheel. And it is quite small, I thought. Zune has a "hold" switch at the top that is made of cheap-feeling plastic.
Going through the menus made me realize how shallow the function list of Zune. I suppose most consumers might not notice that.
I didn't realise the Zune wasn't being released here until March, and even that date is speculative. Is it being released anywhere other than the US?
Nope, US-only at the moment to let MS test the waters. Rest of the world sometime next year or later.
yeah, i gotta agree. i'm not worried about the Zune hurting the iPod, or at least not yet
A few points.
1) With regards to subscription services, they're not for everyone, however I do think it would be nice to have the ability to use one for those of us who would appreciate it. However, the sad reality is that Apple will never let music purchased digitally from third party work with iPod- at least in the near future.
2) As far as people going with the Zune based on features, have you ever heard of the Razr? Over 50 MILLION people use the Razr, and you know how many customers go into a store and say "I'd like a Razr" not caring one bit about what features it's similarly priced competition has. MP3 player is no longer the world for digital audio- iPod is. As far as I'm concerned the Zune is simply a glorified gigabeat (that actually looks worse.) Both are good products and I'm sure a few unites will be sold, however with the exception of the Zune party in Washington- nobody is buying the Zune- and nobody cares.This holiday season, the kids needing MP3 players will again ask for an iPod- as they have for years.
3) With regards to Apple innovating more quickly as a result of the Zune, that's simply not the case. Apple spends they amount of time they NEED, regardless of market pressures etc. Steve will release the next generation when he is 100% happy with it- not a minute before.
4) With regards to Borat, that movie was genius!
1) With regards to subscription services, they're not for everyone, however I do think it would be nice to have the ability to use one for those of us who would appreciate it. However, the sad reality is that Apple will never let music purchased digitally from third party work with iPod- at least in the near future.
2) As far as people going with the Zune based on features, have you ever heard of the Razr? Over 50 MILLION people use the Razr, and you know how many customers go into a store and say "I'd like a Razr" not caring one bit about what features it's similarly priced competition has. MP3 player is no longer the world for digital audio- iPod is. As far as I'm concerned the Zune is simply a glorified gigabeat (that actually looks worse.) Both are good products and I'm sure a few unites will be sold, however with the exception of the Zune party in Washington- nobody is buying the Zune- and nobody cares.This holiday season, the kids needing MP3 players will again ask for an iPod- as they have for years.
3) With regards to Apple innovating more quickly as a result of the Zune, that's simply not the case. Apple spends they amount of time they NEED, regardless of market pressures etc. Steve will release the next generation when he is 100% happy with it- not a minute before.
4) With regards to Borat, that movie was genius!
-Unspeaked
One point: This is MS's third attempt. The first was with the haphazard organization of BuyMusic, Napster et al, this one is hard to remember but the sudden plethora of WMV marketplaces is the key. The second, a bit more formal was 2004's PlaysForSure. This is the third attempt, the first by MS to control the device (a repackaged Gigbeat) and the service.
MS isn't known for its services.
This being the third in five years, they've had plenty of time, and proxy failures to get it right.
My disdain for the Zune is purely based on the stupidity of it - Mac be damned.
It's funny how often this old statement by Steve Jobs keeps becoming true over and over again...it really just sums up this whole thing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upzKj-1HaKw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upzKj-1HaKw
My Experiance with Zune
Enter best buy look around a bit, go to zune. start trying to use it. first impression, the screen has a nice look to it, I think the software looks nice. downsides: its really big and bulky, not to mention ugly.
salesman (in typical salesman voice): hey, checkin out the zune huh?
Me: yeah its pretty ugly huh?
Salesman:not really, its actually has way more protection than an ipod does. so if you drop it, it should be ok.
I start thinking to myself... why would I drop it? isnt that what a ipod case is for? (and then you can choose if you want to make your ipod ugly or not)
Me: I dont like it. its not very intuitive, I keep accidently going places I dont intend to. combine that with it being 2 times larger than the biggest ipod, and as far as im concerned it might as well be a portable dvd player.
the end.
Zune is lame. on the other hand, alot of soccer moms seemed to like it.
it seems to have alot of appeal with soccer moms, and Dockers dads.
those are the people I saw going "oooo..ahhh" and "did you see the new mp3 player?"
Enter best buy look around a bit, go to zune. start trying to use it. first impression, the screen has a nice look to it, I think the software looks nice. downsides: its really big and bulky, not to mention ugly.
salesman (in typical salesman voice): hey, checkin out the zune huh?
Me: yeah its pretty ugly huh?
Salesman:not really, its actually has way more protection than an ipod does. so if you drop it, it should be ok.
I start thinking to myself... why would I drop it? isnt that what a ipod case is for? (and then you can choose if you want to make your ipod ugly or not)
Me: I dont like it. its not very intuitive, I keep accidently going places I dont intend to. combine that with it being 2 times larger than the biggest ipod, and as far as im concerned it might as well be a portable dvd player.
the end.
Zune is lame. on the other hand, alot of soccer moms seemed to like it.
it seems to have alot of appeal with soccer moms, and Dockers dads.
those are the people I saw going "oooo..ahhh" and "did you see the new mp3 player?"
So you agree with me- without Beatles/Tool/Zeppelin, no music collection is complete?
What it comes down to is that for most people on this forum (read:not 12 year old girls), they already own plenty of music. If you can name a couple thousand songs that you want RIGHT NOW, then subsription is for you. For me (and most people here I'm sure), music purchasing has been a hobby for a decade or two, and will continue to be for many more. As a result, we have already built large collections of music. There are not 180 new songs I want per year- I'm lucky if I buy 3 or 4 CDs/year these days. As a result, I'll take my $40 in music costs per year over $180, and plenty of people will. The real issue here is I'm saying that your blanket statement that subscription models are the only that make sense was wrong. Good for you, but plenty bad for most.
While we're at it then, if you're spending $9000 for a lifetime of subscription and I'm paying $9000 (ok, fine) for all of my purchases, aren't I happier owning the music? It sure is nice to lend CDs to people and not have to buy crappy mp3 players...
To add my 2 cents into the subscription/purchase model discussion.
I am curious how the subscription model pays the artists. if I pay $15 a month for music, and listen to 50 songs from different artists, where does that money go? and does it know how many times I listened to each song?
so lets say that I am an indie artist, and obviously fewer people are "subscribing" to my music. and let us say that of the people who are subscribing to my music, many if not most are also subscribing to many larger groups like the beatles, or bjork, or maybe ben folds or any number of other groups that have a significant if not very large following. I suppose that they would get a bigger piece of the subscription pie? yet they can listen to my album all the time?
honestly I'd be pleased if people were digging on my music, but in a subscription based market... it also seems like if an artist wants to see any money they also have to be subscribed to for 50 years.
my favourite Zune quote comes from an Engadget poster
"I for one, welcome our DRMed overlord" hehe, made me chuckle
"I for one, welcome our DRMed overlord" hehe, made me chuckle
This is the textbook example of how to own someone in an argument. Good job! I am sure the other fella is peeing on himself right now
Jobs looks angry and bitter. Is it me or does the guy seem a little too obsessed with proportionally spaced fonts?
I've read that apperently Zune will have rootkit installed on it just like the good old Sony laptops and for that reason alone I would never touch the Zune.
With rootkit on a Zune it explains why the record companies specifically Universal and Sony BMG are so happy with the Zune release.
The head of Sony BMG recently said "Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
With rootkit on a Zune it explains why the record companies specifically Universal and Sony BMG are so happy with the Zune release.
The head of Sony BMG recently said "Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"