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Even if Psystar wins they don't get attorneys' fees - this isn't Britain. And they certainly don't get a free license. And they haven't even asked for damages, and they have no basis for damages, so they don't get that, either.

Just remembered a very good reason for Psystar to appeal: There is an agreement between Apple and Psystar that Psystar has to be about two million in damages, payment due _after any appeals_. If Psystar didn't appeal, they would have to pay right now. Because of the appeal, they can delay payment.
 
Just remembered a very good reason for Psystar to appeal: There is an agreement between Apple and Psystar that Psystar has to be about two million in damages, payment due _after any appeals_. If Psystar didn't appeal, they would have to pay right now. Because of the appeal, they can delay payment.

Since they don't have $2M, it's moot. What's going to happen is the appeals court will not accept the appeal, so the delay will be short in any case. (I'm not saying they'll lose the appeal - I'm saying the court of appeals won't even listen to them make their argument).
 
Just remembered a very good reason for Psystar to appeal: There is an agreement between Apple and Psystar that Psystar has to be about two million in damages, payment due _after any appeals_. If Psystar didn't appeal, they would have to pay right now. Because of the appeal, they can delay payment.

it is closer to $3 mil and Apple won't get the money. and they know this. For them it was never about money. it was about the courts validating their legal right to tie and to control installation of the OS software. Until the entire anti-trust, copyright etc gets a from scratch overall, Apple will be able to use this case as precedent to stop any other US companies from trying the same thing (so long as they lack the market share). That is if anyone is that crazy.
 
While many have good ideas and concepts, there are issues not factored in to offered opinions.

A claim that apple has not done anything wrong is unsubstantiated and short-sighted for anyone to conclude they haven't.

The DMCA has clauses that protect a consumers rights and provides provisions that permits bypassing locks and security features, also, stating that a EULA is a binding and enforceable contract is nothing more than ignorance.

Apple is not required to provide drivers for non-supported hardware and they are not obligated to provide support for the software if used with non-apple branded equipment so many or the proposed arguments don't have any standing.

They provide iTunes, Quicktime, Safari and other software that run in various flavors of windows and the distributed license agreement you click through has the same apple-branded stipulation so use of this software based on the general opinion of many people here is that it is illegal because the included EULA says so.

The benefit for apple in open-sourcing software is for several reasons, one that comes to mind is the compliance obligation to do so based on the terms of an open source license for the software they are using.

Darwin is supposed to be open-source but even the darwin devel team only supports the software on apple-branded computers and much of this software comes in source form with an APSL.

I have examined many substitute boot loaders used in the hacintosh community and I don't find anything illegal in them, they are open source which allows you to modify them, distribution requires an inclusion of the original license, emulating EFI is not illegal and apple certainly couldn't sue anyone or any company and win because they do.

Another thing to note, the key/poem used in Mac OS X is not copyrightable and any competent attorney can figure out why without too much effort.

Psystar was within their rights to (counter) sue apple and the recent apple win was not based on the law and having the ruling over-turned is very likely to occur.

Poor planning (or lack of) and lack of preparation is a contributing factor in the ruling and didn't help their case, they should not have waited for apple to sue them, all the wait-time did was allow apple time to better prepare themselves to go after Psystar and those who are aware of the details regarding the landmark Lexmark case have a better understanding of why apple should not have won or that Psystar counter-sued poorly.

Over the last 4 years apple has threatened to sue one of my clients on more than one occasion and after submission of a written response the matter seems to go away.

The apple legal department has a tendency to intimidate and it is easier for them to bleed a smaller business dry and force out the competition than risk a serious ruling against them.

I have first-hand knowledge that apple will be in a Florida and Michigan court defending themselves in 2 separate lawsuits within the next eleven months, one based on the EULA itself so don't be surprised when the news finally breaks.
 
While many have good ideas and concepts, there are issues not factored in to offered opinions.

A claim that apple has not done anything wrong is unsubstantiated and short-sighted for anyone to conclude they haven't.

The DMCA has clauses that protect a consumers rights and provides provisions that permits bypassing locks and security features, also, stating that a EULA is a binding and enforceable contract is nothing more than ignorance.

Apple is not required to provide drivers for non-supported hardware and they are not obligated to provide support for the software if used with non-apple branded equipment so many or the proposed arguments don't have any standing.

They provide iTunes, Quicktime, Safari and other software that run in various flavors of windows and the distributed license agreement you click through has the same apple-branded stipulation so use of this software based on the general opinion of many people here is that it is illegal because the included EULA says so.

The benefit for apple in open-sourcing software is for several reasons, one that comes to mind is the compliance obligation to do so based on the terms of an open source license for the software they are using.

Darwin is supposed to be open-source but even the darwin devel team only supports the software on apple-branded computers and much of this software comes in source form with an APSL.

I have examined many substitute boot loaders used in the hacintosh community and I don't find anything illegal in them, they are open source which allows you to modify them, distribution requires an inclusion of the original license, emulating EFI is not illegal and apple certainly couldn't sue anyone or any company and win because they do.

Another thing to note, the key/poem used in Mac OS X is not copyrightable and any competent attorney can figure out why without too much effort.

Psystar was within their rights to (counter) sue apple and the recent apple win was not based on the law and having the ruling over-turned is very likely to occur.

Poor planning (or lack of) and lack of preparation is a contributing factor in the ruling and didn't help their case, they should not have waited for apple to sue them, all the wait-time did was allow apple time to better prepare themselves to go after Psystar and those who are aware of the details regarding the landmark Lexmark case have a better understanding of why apple should not have won or that Psystar counter-sued poorly.

Over the last 4 years apple has threatened to sue one of my clients on more than one occasion and after submission of a written response the matter seems to go away.

The apple legal department has a tendency to intimidate and it is easier for them to bleed a smaller business dry and force out the competition than risk a serious ruling against them.

I have first-hand knowledge that apple will be in a Florida and Michigan court defending themselves in 2 separate lawsuits within the next eleven months, one based on the EULA itself so don't be surprised when the news finally breaks.

That's good news :) Thanks!
 
I have examined many substitute boot loaders used in the hacintosh community and I don't find anything illegal in them, they are open source which allows you to modify them, distribution requires an inclusion of the original license, emulating EFI is not illegal and apple certainly couldn't sue anyone or any company and win because they do.

Thanks for your opinion. Did you by any chance notice that there is a 64 bit key in a hardware chip that is required for MacOS X to decode several important files at boot time, which would have to be emulated by the boot loader, constituting a DMCA breach?

It's rather stupid when a company does A, B and C to say that you can't find anything illegal in A and B and therefore it must be all legal. Especially when a company just was ordered by a court to pay about two million dollars for exactly what you think is legal.
 
Thanks for your opinion. Did you by any chance notice that there is a 64 bit key in a hardware chip that is required for MacOS X to decode several important files at boot time, which would have to be emulated by the boot loader, constituting a DMCA breach?

Creating an artificial bondage like that between the software and hardware is itself illegal in most countries of the EU.
 
Its all a load of balls really.

While you're at it, lets go after samsung for not letting me install their TV OS on my sony.

My false sense of entitlement demands satisfaction!

No wait, I was right the first time - Its a load of balls.
 
"The DMCA has clauses that protect a consumers rights and provides provisions that permits bypassing locks and security features, also, stating that a EULA is a binding and enforceable contract is nothing more than ignorance."

it's not ignorance. It's the law. And it's been affirmed by courts time and again. There are people who insist federal income tax isn't the law, too. They make all sorts of fancy arguments and can point at all sorts of law. They all go to jail.

And since you didn't find the obvious dmca violation pointed out by a subsequent poster, it's clear that the rest of your analysis is equally lacking. And lexmark not only doesn't mean what you think it means, but it is of dubious precedential value. Finally, the DMCA does have safe harbors, as you mentioned, but they are enumerated. You don't get to make up new ones. And psystar didn't fall into any of these safe harbors.
 
Creating an artificial bondage like that between the software and hardware is itself illegal in most countries of the EU.

Not in Germany and not in the UK. I don't know anything about the laws of other countries.

BTW. You mean "bond" and not "bondage". "Bondage" doesn't mean what you think it means. :D

The DMCA has clauses that protect a consumers rights and provides provisions that permits bypassing locks and security features, also, stating that a EULA is a binding and enforceable contract is nothing more than ignorance.

You are completely misunderstanding the role of the SLA. The contract between Apple and the customer is a _sales contract_. Apple offers for sale a box with the software and the right to install that software on one computer, but makes it clear that the sale is only legally effective if the customer accepts the SLA. As the customer, you have two choices: Don't accept the SLA, and return the software for a refund. Or accept the SLA, which means you can only do what it allows you to do.

If you don't the SLA, then there is no sale, and therefore you have no right to do anything. Whether the SLA is enforceable or not doesn't matter here at all because by not accepting it you lose all your rights to use the software.

The situation would be different if the SLA said "You may install on copy on a Macintosh, and any number of copies on Psystar computer, but you have to pay Apple $10,000 for each copy installed on a Psystar computer". If you then installed ten copies on ten Psystar computers and Apple asked you for $100,000, then we could discuss whether the SLA was binding (in that case you would probably say you never accepted the SLA, so we just have ten cases of copyright infringement).
 
Creating an artificial bondage like that between the software and hardware is itself illegal in most countries of the EU.


Since you make such an absolute statement with such authority I am betting that you can cite references with specific statutes that could explain how Apple and several other companies that sell hardware and software combination (like Pro Tools for example) are able to conduct business globally.

In short, cite please.
 
If Microsoft cannot win their appeal against the injunction against word/ office 2007, how can this counterfeit outfit win theirs?

Waste of time.



They are not hackers. They steal the work of open-source people and sell the free work for profit.

Kind of the same way Steve Jobs did in the beginning with Apple Computer.

Funny how Steve Jobs is now just like, no strike that, is even worse then the IBM he so much hated.
 
it is closer to $3 mil and Apple won't get the money. and they know this. For them it was never about money. it was about the courts validating their legal right to tie and to control installation of the OS software. Until the entire anti-trust, copyright etc gets a from scratch overall, Apple will be able to use this case as precedent to stop any other US companies from trying the same thing (so long as they lack the market share). That is if anyone is that crazy.

And tell me how this is any different from Microsoft has done and got sued for by the government.
 
Kind of the same way Steve Jobs did in the beginning with Apple Computer.

Funny how Steve Jobs is now just like, no strike that, is even worse then the IBM he so much hated.

1) what was wrong with IBM?
2) what makes you think he hated IBM?

And tell me how this is any different from Microsoft has done and got sued for by the government.

Apple is not a monopoly, so they are allowed to tie products. And Apple hasn't done anything like what microsoft has done.
 
And tell me how this is any different from Microsoft has done and got sued for by the government.
For one thing , MS actually utilized their monopoly in an anti-competitive way. Read the actual USA v Microsoft case.

In short:
The issue central to the case was whether Microsoft was allowed to bundle its flagship Internet Explorer (IE) web browser software with its Microsoft Windows operating system. Bundling them together is alleged to have been responsible for Microsoft's victory in the browser wars as every Windows user had a copy of Internet Explorer. It was further alleged that this unfairly restricted the market for competing web browsers (such as Netscape Navigator or Opera) that were slow to download over a modem or had to be purchased at a store. Underlying these disputes were questions over whether Microsoft altered or manipulated its application programming interfaces (APIs) to favor Internet Explorer over third party web browsers, Microsoft's conduct in forming restrictive licensing agreements with original equipment manufacturer (OEMs), and Microsoft's intent in its course of conduct.

Microsoft had a monopoly in the desktop operating systems market. There is no such market that Apple has a monopoly in which they have engaged in anti-competitive behavior.

Apple is not preventing anybody else from making or selling a legally licensed computer system like they do nor do they have any market power to prevent this and they cannot be fount do have an illegal monopoly over their own product that they own.
 
Apple is not preventing anybody else from making or selling a legally licensed computer system like they do nor do they have any market power to prevent this and they cannot be fount do have an illegal monopoly over their own product that they own.

"Macmillan has a monopoly on their books" :)
 
"Macmillan has a monopoly on their books" :)

*GROAN* I remember Amazon making that comment. I literally yelled “Of course they do! They are the publishers! That’s their right!”

People have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the terms “Monopoly” “Anti-trust” and the nature of “US v. Microsoft” amongst other things.
 
Thanks for your opinion. Did you by any chance notice that there is a 64 bit key in a hardware chip that is required for MacOS X to decode several important files at boot time, which would have to be emulated by the boot loader, constituting a DMCA breach?

It's rather stupid when a company does A, B and C to say that you can't find anything illegal in A and B and therefore it must be all legal. Especially when a company just was ordered by a court to pay about two million dollars for exactly what you think is legal.
Judge Alsup's ruling is seriously flawed in a number of ways, starting with the fact that the DMCA explicitly does not authorize the creation of these types of "product monopolies" nor does enabling OS X circumvent any copyright protection per se.

It would be a travesty of justice if the ruling is not appealed since it's very foundation is shaky at best.

Let's look at an aspect of the ruling, "(3) adding non-apple kernel extensions" is now illegal and enforceable at apple's sole discretion.

This can be interpreted to mean that apple can now control who it accepts kernel extensions for software and hardware by suing those it wishes to prevent the hardware use based on this ruling so, if you purchased a HighPoint RocketRaid adapter card and apple decides they don't want you to use it, they sue HPT and will win based on this ruling because the card requires a non-apple kernel extension and by providing it to the consumer they are effectively promoting and authorizing illegal activity.

OS X client has no copy protection, nothing stops a Mac owner from duplicating or installing it on more than one computer.

A 64bit key in a hardware chip???

I've examined apple's open-source boot loader and found no such key, I've examined several of the currently used boot loader sources including the one used by Psystar and found no such 64bit key.

I think you are referring to the key/poem and a competent attorney can explain why this is not copyrighted material and the key/poem is encoded in the main-board's firmware (what is commonly referred by many as BIOS).

For example, lock-out codes are not copyrightable, that is obviously what the key/poem is, in fact, the idea of such a key/poem is even explicitly raised in the Lexmark case/ruling.

The key/poem has no other value, it certainly is not a legitimate literary work and hence not copyrightable.

Now, with the exception of an EFI based boot loader (bootldr.efi) the use of apple's own open-source boot loader (boot-132) is the foundation for most of the current boot loaders and was specifically developed to load the darwin kernel yet this detail seems to have escaped Psystar's defense team.

Not in Germany and not in the UK. I don't know anything about the laws of other countries.

BTW. You mean "bond" and not "bondage". "Bondage" doesn't mean what you think it means. :D



You are completely misunderstanding the role of the SLA. The contract between Apple and the customer is a _sales contract_. Apple offers for sale a box with the software and the right to install that software on one computer, but makes it clear that the sale is only legally effective if the customer accepts the SLA. As the customer, you have two choices: Don't accept the SLA, and return the software for a refund. Or accept the SLA, which means you can only do what it allows you to do.

If you don't the SLA, then there is no sale, and therefore you have no right to do anything. Whether the SLA is enforceable or not doesn't matter here at all because by not accepting it you lose all your rights to use the software.

The situation would be different if the SLA said "You may install on copy on a Macintosh, and any number of copies on Psystar computer, but you have to pay Apple $10,000 for each copy installed on a Psystar computer". If you then installed ten copies on ten Psystar computers and Apple asked you for $100,000, then we could discuss whether the SLA was binding (in that case you would probably say you never accepted the SLA, so we just have ten cases of copyright infringement).
apple's EULA is provided "after" the sale/purchase has occurred and at the P.O.S. there is no contract or agreement other than you cannot return the product if you open it (unless it is physically defective) and this is not disputable (but you can try).

It says on the box there is a EULA inside the box, you open it and it cannot be found in printed format, you run apple's boot loader and boot the DVD, select your language, pick your drive and then you are presented with the EULA, most people never read it and just click through it however, now, accepting the terms means you cannot install it on the computer because it is not apple branded and you can't return it because you opened the package and attempted to install it when you were presented with the EULA.

Your claim that this "after" sales contract tactic is legal and binding has little validity, that's like buying a ford truck, paying for it, receiving it, told that you are bound by their EULA and once you drive off the lot you can't return it, when you stop to add fuel inside the fuel door it stipulates you can only use Shell petroleum.

What about the "first sale doctrine" or the "interoperability clause", these were not offered in defense yet they are very valid.

Also note, there is a difference between enabling a functionality and bypassing or over-riding a functionality.

A kernel extensions that provides a decryption method to allow Mac OS X to run is circumventing the built-in decryption routines, an example of this is dsmos.kext, a kernel extension that enables the built-in decryption by making available non-copyrighted data is enabling it, an example of this is fakesmc.kext.

I do not dismiss that there are enforceable portions of the EULA, commercial 3rd party installation and redistribution clauses, these things Psystar did which do violate the terms of the EULA but to claim that the EULA is completely and unequivocally legally binding and enforceable is utter nonsense.

Mac OS X is in part based on the works of FreeBSD and other open-source operating systems and apple has never denied this, this does not prevent apple from selling the derivative work and there are many in the hacintosh community who have tried to benefit financially off of the work of others and some are never credited for the work they have contributed.

To think that the community would not benefited from the results of Psystars efforts is ludicrous, now, Psystar did not steal the works of others, claim it as their own and sell it, clearly from looking at it's source the bulk of the work was done by David Elliot (DFE) and there are several other individuals listed along with their contribution code yet you do not see them listed or named as codefendants.

Psystar spent time, probably provided equipment to aid in development and might have even paid some individuals a fee of some kind, to say that they can't sell it is not entirely correct, they don't have to sell the works, the source is/was freely available for download, they can sell the distribution package which is nothing less than what apple is doing with Mac OS X which is based on darwin and it is a free open-source OS.

apple's support obligation can be bound by any terms and conditions they choose and they are not required by law to support any specific hardware or provide drivers for hardware they don't wish to support, there are many competent individuals who are capable of creating drivers for hardware and if the hardware is mainstream it will most likely be supported.

Oh, and to claim that all PC's require a modified boot loader to run Mac OS X is also false.

In my preparation and research, I have seen an EFI enabled i5 based PC boot the install DVD without pre-loading any drivers or pre-booting any environment and I have seen other machines boot the install DVD without a swap disk while other computers can't because they have a lot of unsupported onboard hardware that prevents it from loading or operating properly.

It's a very complicated matter and everything is not as cut and dry as everyone would like it to be, a lot is based on interpretation and this is never considered by the majority of readers or those reporting it.

To claim that apple makes superior hardware is unfounded, their laptops are plagues with all kinds of hardware failures, even the new iMac has serious issues, many were exchanged, the second release still has video issues that are not entirely fixed with the offered BIOS update (apple's attempt to see what they can get away with without actually fixing it properly).

There is white-listing in the firmware to prevent a machine from starting up if you install better quality but non-apple branded components and is another control tactic that the consumer is never informed of.
 
Sigh. Pretty much every single paragraph is either factually or legally incorrect. I'd point out why, but these fallacies have already been debunked a zillion times in this and other threads. I mean, any argument that starts "the dmca doesn't explicitly allow [X]" is facially illogical. And to say the first sale doctrine wasn't argued (it was, and it was earlier rejected) just shows you don't know what you're talking about.
 
And tell me how this is any different from Microsoft has done and got sued for by the government.

1. Microsoft was the dominant market power
2. they used that power to force an unrelated product on folks by making installation of IE a condition of a Windows OEM license
3. they attempted to block competition by prohibiting the installation of any other web browser by licensees and by blocking attempts by the companies to reverse engineer Windows for compatibility.

Mac OSX as an operating system is in fact a related product to hardware since without an OS the hardware is just a box of wires and such. Apple is not a dominant power in the market (which is NOT Mac Computers as Psystar tried to claim) and tying is not inherently abusive outside of that dominance.

and on the issue of an EULA. Apple's is just the codification of rights given to them by other laws, which is why Psystar couldn't use it as a defense for what they were doing, even if you toss the EULA, copyright etc had Apple covered.
 
Sigh. Pretty much every single paragraph is either factually or legally incorrect. I'd point out why, but these fallacies have already been debunked a zillion times in this and other threads. I mean, any argument that starts "the dmca doesn't explicitly allow [X]" is facially illogical. And to say the first sale doctrine wasn't argued (it was, and it was earlier rejected) just shows you don't know what you're talking about.

I tend to ignore posts >2 paragraphs.
 
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