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Psystar Files Appeal in Apple Lawsuit Over Unauthorized Mac Clones

haveagoal said:
Judge Alsup's ruling is seriously flawed in a number of ways, starting with the fact that the DMCA explicitly does not authorize the creation of these types of "product monopolies" nor does enabling OS X circumvent any copyright protection per se.
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I'll just respond to the first sentence, since you repeat the same old arguments that come up all the time.

First, Judge Alsup's ruling is seriously flawed in a number of ways: Sorry, mate, but how can you say with a straight face that you know better than a man doing this job for many years, who has several helpers (qualified lawyers themselves) finding relevant case law for him, who also had the help of Psystar's lawyers who helpfully pointed out anything that was in their favour, and all we have here is your word that you know better?

Second, the DMCA explicitly does not authorise the creation of product monopolies: What product monopoly? That was the first item that Psystar lost; their claim that Apple's ownership of MacOS X constituted a monopoly. Apple has the copyright on MacOS X. Copyright law gives Apple the right to control who can make or own copies of MacOS X or not. Apple always had the right to use technological measures to prevent copying of MacOS X. The DMCA makes it a crime to circumvent such copying. So here you are completely wrong.

Enabling OS X does not circumvent any copyright protection per se: Excuse me, but MacOS X doesn't run on any computer that doesn't have the right chip with the right 64 bit encryption code inside _unless the copy protection is circumvented_. That's what Apple said, and if it wasn't true then surely Psystar's lawyers would have pointed that out to the judge. So what is it: Is it copyright circumvention, or are Psystar's lawyers complete and utter idiots? There are no other possibilities. Well, we know already that according to you all lawyers are clueless.
 
charlituna said:
2. they used that power to force an unrelated product on folks by making installation of IE a condition of a Windows OEM license
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That is an important point here: Apple uses copyright law to control copying of _Apple's_ product. That is exactly what copyright law is for. If Apple tried to tell you what you can do with someone else's software, that would be against copyright law. That is exactly what Microsoft did: They tried to prevent copying and use of their competitors' products.
 
gnasher729 said:
That is an important point here: Apple uses copyright law to control copying of _Apple's_ product. That is exactly what copyright law is for. If Apple tried to tell you what you can do with someone else's software, that would be against copyright law. That is exactly what Microsoft did: They tried to prevent copying and use of their competitors' products.
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LOL!!! Yeah right...

I'm sorry guys but it's absolutely clear here that anything someone says AGAINST Apple is immediately dismissed with arguments like "You don't know what you're talking about" while at the same moment things no matter how wrong that are being said about it's competitors are absolutely accepted.

As thousands of people have said before. These aren't simple matters. Why can a Judge make a wrong ruling? Because of that. Simple! Also what is right and wrong lies in the eye of the observer. There is no absolute right and wrong.

Please, people that have nothing more to say than "What you say is wrong", "You don't know what you're talking about", etc - just don't post. Nobody wants to hear your fanboy uproars and you are cluttering a thread that contains like 12 interesting posts total up to over 12 pages.

Fanboy is not an insult btw. But it's obvious here that some people clearly dismiss anything anyone says against Apple but on the other hand accept every negativity as absolute truth that is said about Microsoft or other competitors.
 
hachre said:
As thousands of people have said before. These aren't simple matters. Why can a Judge make a wrong ruling? Because of that. Simple! Also what is right and wrong lies in the eye of the observer. There is no absolute right and wrong.
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We have our Law system for a reason, so that everybody is judged the same under the same rules.

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None of this is for the likes of us to decide anyway. Why bother arguing over it.

I would add that my subjective opinion (and thats all that it is) is that Psytar can go suck balls. I am 100% behind the manufacturer/ IP creator on this one...
 
So let me summarise what you are saying: Judge Alsup is an idiot who can't get anything right if it is just slightly complicated. You are a genius who looks through all of this and knows the truth without a shadow of a doubt. And any who contradicts you is a fanboy.

Yeah, right.
 
hachre said:
I'm sorry guys but it's absolutely clear here that anything someone says AGAINST Apple is immediately dismissed with arguments like "You don't know what you're talking about" while at the same moment things no matter how wrong that are being said about it's competitors are absolutely accepted.
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No that is patently false. We have had several people on here who have a great deal of legal experience that has agreed with Alsup including multiple third party sources. You are trying to complain based on false logic - we are calling you out on it because you are wrong, not because of fanboyism.

As thousands of people have said before. These aren't simple matters. Why can a Judge make a wrong ruling? Because of that. Simple! Also what is right and wrong lies in the eye of the observer. There is no absolute right and wrong.
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Judges can make wrong rulings here, but there are tons of legitimate news sites and lawyers who will agree on the basic concepts. The definition of "monopoly" and "anti-trust" are well understood and very basic concepts of law. You don't need to be an expert here.

Why can't you accept the fact that you could be wrong. Alsup made a summary judgment - the only reason those get handed down when the facts are obvious. Alsup knows his stuff here. check out his Wiki entry - I quote relevant sections:

He returned to his private practice in San Francisco from 1980 to 1998, when he briefly served as a special counsel in the Antitrust Division of the Department of Justice in 1998.
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I think we can assume that he is not going to make such as basic error here. Give it up, your outclassed.

Please, people that have nothing more to say than "What you say is wrong", "You don't know what you're talking about", etc - just don't post. Nobody wants to hear your fanboy uproars and you are cluttering a thread that contains like 12 interesting posts total up to over 12 pages.
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We are correcting your incorrect statements - we can back them up by factual cites. Return the favor and we might take you seriously.

Fanboy is not an insult btw. But it's obvious here that some people clearly dismiss anything anyone says against Apple but on the other hand accept every negativity as absolute truth that is said about Microsoft or other competitors.
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It is an ad hominum attack. If you cannot face your detractors seriously and choose to dismiss them, that is your fact. It does not give your arguments any additional weight.
 
Eh. I'm an intellectual property lawyer, and I can make mistakes. But his arguments don't even rise above the level of conspiracy theory. Not worth even pointing out the flaws. When someone insists that black is white, what's the point in arguing?

pdjudd said:
No that is patently false. We have had several people on here who have a great deal of legal experience that has agreed with Alsup including multiple third party sources. You are trying to complain based on false logic - we are calling you out on it because you are wrong, not because of fanboyism.



Judges can make wrong rulings here, but there are tons of legitimate news sites and lawyers who will agree on the basic concepts. The definition of "monopoly" and "anti-trust" are well understood and very basic concepts of law. You don't need to be an expert here.

Why can't you accept the fact that you could be wrong. Alsup made a summary judgment - the only reason those get handed down when the facts are obvious. Alsup knows his stuff here. check out his Wiki entry - I quote relevant sections:



I think we can assume that he is not going to make such as basic error here. Give it up, your outclassed.


We are correcting your incorrect statements - we can back them up by factual cites. Return the favor and we might take you seriously.



It is an ad hominum attack. If you cannot face your detractors seriously and choose to dismiss them, that is your fact. It does not give your arguments any additional weight.
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cmaier said:
Eh. I'm an intellectual property lawyer, and I can make mistakes. But his arguments don't even rise above the level of conspiracy theory. Not worth even pointing out the flaws. When someone insists that black is white, what's the point in arguing?
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Oh I am not saying that you are immune from error, I am simply pointing out that in this case, especially with the experience that Judge Alsup has, that it is extremely unlikely (read near zero) that it is the case here.

And maybe I am arguing because I am a glutton for punishment. Probably just like Psystar's lawyers are too! :D

ETA: I knew you were a lawyer, but I had no idea that you specialized in IP law. Nice!
 
pdjudd said:
ETA: I knew you were a lawyer, but I had no idea that you specialized in IP law. Nice!
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Yep. My second career. I used to work at AMD (designed Athlon 64/Opteron) and prior to that Sun, and prior to that at Exponential Technology where I designed PowerPC's for Apple (who shut us down when Steve Jobs came back).
 
haveagoal said:
Judge Alsup's ruling is seriously flawed in a number of ways,
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what do you know, we have an expert in the house.

just to eliminate anyone telling you that you are full of crap, a few details should probably be shared with the group

1. what law school did you graduate from again. and for the sake of completeness what year
2. how long has intellectual property been your focus of practice. and how long has that been focused on IP in the Digital Realm

since you have so much expertise I'm sure that you can provide us with the pertinent code and case law references for your statements. That way everyone can see that you are speaking the truth.
 
charlituna said:
since you have so much expertise I'm sure that you can provide us with the pertinent code and case law references for your statements. That way everyone can see that you are speaking the truth.
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And just to add before he brings that up, - No it is not our responsibility to do that work - the onus is on the claimant. In this case haveagoal needs to put up or shut up.
 
I have several things to reply to here, written by several people but my answer to all of you is the same:

Just because you "cite" someones position in his job and the company he works for it doesn't make him more able in my eyes to judge right.

Someone said we have laws so that everyone is judged by the same rules or something like that. I haven't laughed harder in my life. There are no laws for everything. Laws are up for interpretation. If it were that obvious we wouldn't need lawyers, all we would need is a computer to make the rulings.

Someone said why can't I admit that I'm wrong. How the hell am I wrong? I'm not Psystar or Apple or their lawyers. I'm just someone stating his opinion on things. There is no right and wrong in opinions. Opinions are on things that aren't fact so nobody can be right or wrong. And there is no fact here just because a hot shot judge has ruled on something. Otherwise there would be no way to appeal - what would be the point if anything he says is the god given truth?

The people I see that voice their opinions here on behalf of Apple do so in the same way as me, claiming the opposite. I haven't seen any "cite" of fact here that proofs that Apple is right and Psystar is wrong. And no, a judges ruling that is being questioned through an appeal right now is not the fact that I'm looking for.

So let's just stop the fight here please and accept that there are different people here with different opinions on things and there is no use trying to "correct" them. Opinions are just that, opinions. We will see what happens in the future.

I hope Apples EULA will be ruled void, together with all that crap that binds OS X to Apple Hardware. Others might hope for another turn out. We will see.
 
hachre said:
Just because you "cite" someones position in his job and the company he works for it doesn't make him more able in my eyes to judge right.
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The kinds of cites we are looking for are legal citations. Citations to statute or case law that support your opinion.


hachre said:
Someone said we have laws so that everyone is judged by the same rules or something like that. I haven't laughed harder in my life.
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That's too bad, because that is how the law works. It's the principal of stare decisis that makes the British common law system so unique.

hachre said:
There are no laws for everything.
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What does this sentence even mean?

hachre said:
Laws are up for interpretation.
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Yes, by judges. Not by you. Judge Alsup has done so.

Someone said why can't I admit that I'm wrong. How the hell am I wrong? I'm not Psystar or Apple or their lawyers. I'm just someone stating his opinion on things.
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You didn't state opinions. You stated facts. You stated things were wrongly decided.

There is no right and wrong in opinions. Opinions are on things that aren't fact so nobody can be right or wrong.
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Nonsense. If your opinion is that black is white, up is down, and the world is made of crushed turtle shells, your opinion is wrong. The idea that opinions cannot be wrong is new age silliness. Your opinions are wrong.

And there is no fact here just because a hot shot judge has ruled on something. Otherwise there would be no way to appeal - what would be the point if anything he says is the god given truth?
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There is always "a way to appeal." The appeal has not been granted. In other words, all that has happened is that Psystar has said to the court "we intend to appeal." They have no actually appealed. They have not stated a basis for an appeal. If they appeal, the appeals court will likely refuse to even hear the case (most attempts at appeals are not heard by the appeals court - meaning the lower court's ruling is final).

The people I see that voice their opinions here on behalf of Apple do so in the same way as me, claiming the opposite. I haven't seen any "cite" of fact here that proofs that Apple is right and Psystar is wrong. And no, a judges ruling that is being questioned through an appeal right now is not the fact that I'm looking for.
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The judge's ruling states his basis in fact and in law very clearly. He cites cases, applies facts to the rules created by those cases and by statute, and explains himself. You just say "alsup was wrong" without explaining what, in his ruling, is actually wrong.

I hope Apples EULA will be ruled void, together with all that crap that binds OS X to Apple Hardware. Others might hope for another turn out. We will see.
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The EULA has already been ruled NOT void. There is not going to be any appeal. Give it up.
 
cmaier said:
The kinds of cites we are looking for are legal citations. Citations to statute or case law that support your opinion.
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I didn't see any from you either.

That's too bad, because that is how the law works. It's the principal of stare decisis that makes the British common law system so unique.
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What law system? Yours?

You didn't state opinions. You stated facts. You stated things were wrongly decided.
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Now you're just lying.

Nonsense. If your opinion is that black is white, up is down, and the world is made of crushed turtle shells, your opinion is wrong. The idea that opinions cannot be wrong is new age silliness. Your opinions are wrong.
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Did you ever stop to think that it is you who might have the distorted opinion? Aren't you the black and white one, who takes anything 100% for granted after one judge on this earth has made a ruling on it?

The EULA has already been ruled NOT void. There is not going to be any appeal. Give it up.
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In your country maybe. There are others, too, you know?
 
hachre said:
I didn't see any from you either.
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Except we are not the ones saying that "Alsup is wrong" - You are. Unless you can provide a basis to establish this, we have to assume that he is correct.

The rules of debate are - if you make a claim contrary to the status quo., you have to provide proof. We really aren't really making any claims about Alsup - his statements and judgments are considered valid until someone else overturns them. You are making a claim. We want proof. It's not our job to prove that he is right.
 
pdjudd said:
Except we are not the ones saying that "Alsup is wrong" - You are. Unless you can provide a basis to establish this, we have to assume that he is correct.

The rules of debate are - if you make a claim contrary to the status quo., you have to provide proof. We really aren't really making any claims about Alsup - his statements and judgments are considered valid until someone else overturns them. You are making a claim. We want proof. It's not our job to prove that he is right.
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Agreed, however my statements are based on my own opinion and not any facts. This is what a forum is for. We aren't in a court room here.
 
hachre said:
I didn't see any from you either.
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Read the judge's opinion, which, as I pointed out, cites each relevant case, and each relevant statute. If you'd prefer, I'm happy to copy them here.


What law system? Yours?
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I said what law system - the British common law system. The one that is the basis of U.S. law (as well as Canada, Australia, and many other countries).


Did you ever stop to think that it is you who might have the distorted opinion? Aren't you the black and white one, who takes anything 100% for granted after one judge on this earth has made a ruling on it?
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I'm an intellectual property attorney, which means I have years of training and experience at reading judicial opinions and determining whether they are clearly right, clearly wrong, or somewhere in-between. How about you?

In your country maybe. There are others, too, you know?
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But the case was tried in the U.S., under the laws of the United States. The only laws that matter with respect to Psystar are U.S. laws.
 
Why the hell is everyone against me here? I would like to see a quote of me where I stated that the ruling is WRONG in a law sense of the term.
 
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