Psystar Files Appeal in Apple Lawsuit Over Unauthorized Mac Clones

[pdjudd]

Why the hell is everyone against me here? I would like to see a quote of me where I stated that the ruling is WRONG in a law sense of the term.

We never claimed that. We are calling you on the statement you did make which you said that Alsup was wrong. Right here:

Judge Alsup's ruling is seriously flawed in a number of ways,

Along with other very odd statements in other threads.

We want proof of that. Cmaier is an IP lawyer and says you are wrong. Alsup is a State Judge and has worked on Anti-trust with the US government. Where is your relevant proof to back your claims up. Remember the only evidence that matters is US law here - you can't just say "on planet X anything goes - you're wrong" or the like.

Either provide evidence to back your claims up like Judge Alsup has or admit you are wrong. So far I am concluding that you are way out of your league here.

Then I'm not allowed to bring them up?

If they contradict established fact then they are not relevant. Just saying "it's my opinion" doesn't excuse you of anything and you can still be wrong.

 

[cmaier]

The very ruling that I don't agree with is hardly something that will make me change my mind.

You cannot agree with gravity, either, but that doesn't enable you to fly. Nor does it make your opinion valid. An opinion absent a reason is not worth having.

 

[hachre]

But the ruling contains all the legal cites that you just asked about.

Let's not turn the tables here. I was asked for cities in the first place and argued that the defendants of this ruling haven't cited anything themselves. Quoting the ruling is hardly a cite.

Also why in the hell should I cite anything? I'll repeat we aren't in a court room here. We are in an internet forum that is about posting opinions on things from different people.

My opinion is that once this comes to the EU it will be ruled on differently. And that is what I hope for. Nothing else.

 

[BaldiMac]

Then I'm not allowed to bring them up?

Of course, you are!

But voicing an opinion that you admit is based on ignorance is asking for a pointed rebuttal.

 

[cmaier]

Let's not turn the tables here. I was asked for cities in the first place and argued that the defendants of this ruling haven't cited anything themselves. Quoting the ruling is hardly a cite.

Is this bizarro world? There are DOZENS of citations in the order. Here:

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20091114101637997

 

[hachre]

We never claimed that. We are calling you on the statement you did make which you said that Alsup was wrong. Right here:

Along with other very odd statements in other threads.

We want proof of that. Cmaier is an IP lawyer and says you are wrong. Alsup is a State Judge and has worked on Anti-trust with the US government. Where is your relevant proof to back your claims up. Remember the only evidence that matters is US law here - you can't just say "on planet X anything goes - you're wrong" or the like.

Either provide evidence to back your claims up like Judge Alsup has or admit you are wrong. So far I am concluding that you are way out of your league here.


If they contradict established fact then they are not relevant. Just saying "it's my opinion" doesn't excuse you of anything and you can still be wrong.

What the hell, you are quoting a post by someone else and trying to tell me that's me?!?! And that's what you are arguing with ME about??! What someone else said??? I'm very confused right now...

 

[hachre]

Of course, you are!

But voicing an opinion that you admit is based on ignorance is asking for a pointed rebuttal.

It's based on the hope that things go differently in other countries and on the fact that I think how it went in the US was not right in the original sense of the word not in the right-by-law sense

 

[hachre]

You cannot agree with gravity, either, but that doesn't enable you to fly. Nor does it make your opinion valid. An opinion absent a reason is not worth having.

Gravity is a fact of nature. Laws are made by people. There is a distinct difference. Maybe not for practicing lawyers though, which I am not however.

 

[pdjudd]

Let's not turn the tables here.

You are turning the tables on things by not providing anything beyond "I think I am right" we are calling you on it.

I was asked for cities in the first place and argued that the defendants of this ruling haven't cited anything themselves. Quoting the ruling is hardly a cite.

Read the case files. The ruling and the summary judgment cites many other precedents that Alsup based his judgment on. Anyways, you are not the defendant so the fact that they haven't cited anything is irrelevant. They are not going to do your homework for you. Are you admitting that you have no proof?

Also why in the hell should I cite anything? I'll repeat we aren't in a court room here. We are in an internet forum that is about posting opinions on things from different people.

Rules of debate. You make a claim, you provide evidence. You fail to do so you should either admit that or expect criticism of the highest. That applies everywhere debates are held. Not just courts.

My opinion is that once this comes to the EU it will be ruled on differently. And that is what I hope for. Nothing else.

And what basis do you have for this opinion and what makes you think that this case will ever be heard in the EU or anywhere else. Apple's lawsuits have been US based thus far and nobody else besides PerC in Germany is commercially selling hackintoshes,

What the hell, you are quoting a post by someone else and trying to tell me that's me?!?! And that's what you are arguing with ME about??! What someone else said??? I'm very confused right now...

You're right - apologies. Wrong post. You have however have stated that you think Alsup was wrong or at least implied it. Here, you imply that Alsup is wrong. You also make some other false statements that you have been called on.

Gravity is a fact of nature. Laws are made by people. There is a distinct difference. Maybe not for practicing lawyers though, which I am not however.

Doesn't matter. You cannot deny facts by saying up is really down and try to say "It's my opinion" without getting called on it.

 

[pdjudd]

Delete

 

[hachre]

The ignorance in this thread is beyond me.
I have said several times by now: I HAVE NOT MADE ANY CLAIMS.
When I asked you for a quote of me doing that you failed to provide one.

Please get your own facts straight, I'm not debating this anymore.

 

[hachre]

You're right. Wrong post. You have however have stated that you think Alsup was wrong or at least implied it. Here, you imply that Alsup is wrong. YOu also make some other false statements that you have been called on.

I replied to someones hypothesis that a judge by definition can't be wrong. I didn't necessarily refer to this specific case just like he wasn't talking specifically about this case.

 

[BaldiMac]

It's based on the hope that things go differently in other countries and on the fact that I think how it went in the US was not right in the original sense of the word not in the right-by-law sense

If you said that you were talking about what you were going to do with your three wishes in the first place, this whole misunderstanding could have been avoid. We thought you were discussing facts and opinions, not hopes and dreams.

Gravity is a fact of nature. Laws are made by people. There is a distinct difference. Maybe not for practicing lawyers though, which I am not however.

Metaphors are made by people too. They require a bit of interpretation and are not always perfect analogies.

 

[pdjudd]

I replied to someones hypothesis that a judge by definition can't be wrong. I didn't necessarily refer to this specific case just like he wasn't talking specifically about this case.

I don't think that was implied there though, I will have to check, but the implication is that the Judges decision is considered valid and standing until it is overturned, not that they can never be wrong (which I don't think anybody would seriously claim).

 

[hachre]

If you said that you were talking about what you were going to do with your three wishes in the first place, this whole misunderstanding could have been avoid. We thought you were discussing facts and opinions, not hopes and dreams.
.

I don't see how my original post could have been misinterpreted as anything else. I still think the whole misunderstanding comes from you all thinking I'm the dude who stated law stuff who was obviously wrong.

 

[pdjudd]

I don't see how my original post could have been misinterpreted as anything else. I still think the whole misunderstanding comes from you all thinking I'm the dude who stated law stuff who was obviously wrong.

No, You also made some pretty bazaar claims without any basis in reality like:

Creating an artificial bondage like that between the software and hardware is itself illegal in most countries of the EU.

Which you never backed up or showed relevance to.

I'm sorry guys but it's absolutely clear here that anything someone says AGAINST Apple is immediately dismissed with arguments like "You don't know what you're talking about" while at the same moment things no matter how wrong that are being said about it's competitors are absolutely accepted.

Which we called you on too...

As thousands of people have said before. These aren't simple matters. Why can a Judge make a wrong ruling? Because of that. Simple! Also what is right and wrong lies in the eye of the observer. There is no absolute right and wrong.

Which makes no logical sense to me or anything else - especially with an IP lawyer in the house...

Just because you "cite" someones position in his job and the company he works for it doesn't make him more able in my eyes to judge right.

Which is truly bizarre (rejecting authority for no logical reason whatsoever is never a good thing)

There is no right and wrong in opinions. Opinions are on things that aren't fact so nobody can be right or wrong.

Which is patently false.

And so on. Having opinions is very fine and acceptable. The problem is that you cannot just leave it at that. If you make statements that don’t make sense, we call you on it and start demanding some proof. Any delusional loon (I am not calling anybody that) can spew out random junk. We aren’t going to accept it even if they call it opinion. Opinions have to have some basis in logic. So far, I have seen very little logic in your arguments.

All you are saying is “it’s an opinion”. That’s not enough though - when you make a statement (opinion or not) you expose yourself to criticism. If you want to classify what you say as opinion, fine. Be prepared to face heat for it.

ETA: I am the only one by the way that misquoted you. I apologized for that and retract that quote. I urge that you do not accuse anybody else for that action without proof. I made the mistake and acknowledged that.

 

[hachre]

I'm too annoyed and too tired to continue this nonsense. I'm not here to defend every single word I say. My opinion stands if you like it or not. I'm not trying to make you think the same way. Therefore I don't have to justify anything I said.

The meaning of the word "opinion" as explained here:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion

1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
3. the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second medical opinion.
4. Law. the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case.
5. a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.: to forfeit someone's good opinion.
6. a favorable estimate; esteem: I haven't much of an opinion of him.

My usage of the term is based on 1, 2, 5 and 6.

From the moment everyone started jumping me (before I had even said much) I was puzzled as to why people take so much of an interest in my statement of opinion all of the sudden. The fact that you have mixed me up with someone else explains it all. I believe that's what happened to the others who chimed in too.

If you're not willing to let it rest at that it's your problem. I'm leaving this discussion and forum now. I'm not interested in a forum-community that is unwilling to accept any opinions that are against Apple. That's what my post you quoted mainly from was about - AFTER this discussion had already started. Usually when stating an opinion on an internet forum you don't have to justify it with court-room-precise language in order not to get jumped by several people. I don't have the time or nerve to discuss things of zero importance with you here. All I wanted to do was add my opinion to a thread. I'm sorry that it was the opposite of yours. You are just going to have to live with it.

This has wasted enough of my time already.
Have a nice life.

 

[BaldiMac]

I'm not interested in a community that is unwilling to accept any opinions that are against Apple. Usually when stating an opinion on an internet forum you don't have to justify it with court-room-precise language in order not to get jumped by several people.

What does our opinions have to do with Apple? Who has even brought up Apple in this discussion. I suppose you just wanted to get in one last fanboy dig before departing.

Personally, my interest in this topic has to do with copyright and IP law. My livelihood is based on the commitments that society made to people who produce IP. People like you want to overturn my rights to my IP based on nothing more than "I want a cheaper Mac configured exactly as I want it regardless of Apple's desire to produce or sell such a thing."

 

[cmaier]

What does our opinions have to do with Apple? Who has even brought up Apple in this discussion. I suppose you just wanted to get in one last fanboy dig before departing.

Personally, my interest in this topic has to do with copyright and IP law. My livelihood is based on the commitments that society made to people who produce IP. People like you want to overturn my rights to my IP based on nothing more than "I want a cheaper Mac configured exactly as I want it regardless of Apple's desire to produce or sell such a thing."

Agreed. I am a fan of Apple (mostly because I appreciate them for giving me a beautiful OS that lets me run tcsh when I need to), but there are many things I dislike about them (app store shenanigans - why do they get to review my apps for iPad at all, in fact - there's no danger of "bringing down the network," etc.). However, I see nothing admirable about psystar at all. They are nothing more than IP thieves.

 

[hachre]

Agreed. I am a fan of Apple (mostly because I appreciate them for giving me a beautiful OS that lets me run tcsh when I need to), but there are many things I dislike about them (app store shenanigans - why do they get to review my apps for iPad at all, in fact - there's no danger of "bringing down the network," etc.). However, I see nothing admirable about psystar at all. They are nothing more than IP thieves.

I'm a fan of Steve Jobs. In my opinion he has been the driving force behind anything revolutionary that Apple has put out in the last decade. Therefore I also like Apple.

I disliked his recent quote of saying that Googles mantras was ********, though. I also dislike the App Store thing you mentioned, it makes Apple look more and more like a greedy company that wants to get a cut from everything. One other thing I hate is the fact that they try to bind Mac OS to Apple-only Hardware.

Since the bind is of artificial nature (read: not a technical necessity) I think that something like that should not be allowed. That doesn't mean I want them to actively support Mac OS on other platforms. I'm not a fan of Psystar but they have been the only ones recently who have tried to challenge that, so I took an interest in anything they did.

THIS was everything I ever wanted to say here. Sorry I offended you all.

Personally, my interest in this topic has to do with copyright and IP law. My livelihood is based on the commitments that society made to people who produce IP. People like you want to overturn my rights to my IP based on nothing more than "I want a cheaper Mac configured exactly as I want it regardless of Apple's desire to produce or sell such a thing."

I am departing because of the striking ignorance in this forum. You are a perfect example of it. I have stated around 3-4 times now that I have not made any statement of fact in this entire thread.

I have even quoted the dictionary on the word opinion because some people here are trying to convince me that it means something else than it really does.

You have no clue what my motivations are. The fact that nobody of you asked why I think the way I do but rather started creating a big pointless hollow discussion on linguistics and other unimportant banalities out of this leads me to my next conclusion: I believe you don't want to accept the fact that there are people out there who believe the that the whole concept of IP is ********.

I'm sorry that your job hangs in the balance but lying to yourself about the fact that people like me exist, or their motivations for thinking like I do won't make it any better for you.

The fact that you think my motivation stems from something as trivial as spending less money on a Mac is just an insult.

I am generally rather unimpressed by the fact that almost every post that was directed at me contained an insult at a personal level. I don't care if you are the President of the United States, if you can't discuss things in a mature way I'm just going to leave.

I'm unsubscribed from this thread now.

 

[BaldiMac]

I am departing because of the striking ignorance in this forum. You are a perfect example of it. I have stated around 3-4 times now that I have not made any statement of fact in this entire thread.

You have made many statements of fact, both correct and incorrect, but that is really besides the point.

I have even quoted the dictionary on the word opinion because some people here are trying to convince me that it means something else than it really does.

What does that have to do with anything?

You have no clue what my motivations are. The fact that nobody of you asked why I think the way I do but rather started creating a big pointless hollow discussion on linguistics and other unimportant banalities out of this leads me to my next conclusion: I believe you don't want to accept the fact that there are people out there who believe the that the whole concept of IP is ********.

Sorry, I couldn't think of any other motivation for hoping Psystar prevails against Apple other than the hope to install OS X on a PC. I suppose I should have considered the idealist argument against IP as a whole. But that's all unicorns and rainbows to me.

I'm sorry that your job hangs in the balance but lying to yourself about the fact that people like me exist, or their motivations for thinking like I do won't make it any better for you.

My job does not hang in the balance. I know people like you exist and have never lied to myself about it.

The fact that you think my motivation stems from something as trivial as spending less money on a Mac is just an insult.

But then, that's what this thread is about. Psystar vs Apple. Not IP law as a whole.

I am generally rather unimpressed by the fact that almost every post that was directed at me contained an insult at a personal level. I don't care if you are the President of the United States, if you can't discuss things in a mature way I'm just going to leave.

I did not insult you at a personal level a single time. You, however, called me a perfect example of striking ignorance. Yet another opinion with no basis in fact.

I'm unsubscribed from this thread now.

You've already claimed to be done with discussion two or three times before this one. Do you mean it this time? Or do you have to try and get in the last word one more time?

 

[pdjudd]

My job does not hang in the balance. I know people like you exist and have never lied to myself about it.

Apparently us fanboys work for Big Apple and we have to defend them at all costs. If that is true, I should be contacting their payroll department in accounting - I seem to not be getting my paycheck....

In other words BaldiMac, +1. My Job does not hang in the balance and I do not deny the existence of hackintoshers. I question their motives and desires, but that is neither here nor there.

 

[haveagoal]

It amazes me that in a discussion people are attacked for offering opinions and conjecture.

Claims that a machine booting Mac OSX unassisted have been debunked is pure ignorance when I have seen such things first hand and know of current projects that are being developed for just that purpose.

If you believe it is not possible then you also must believe that a PC graphics card cannot be converted to an EFI based Mac graphics card becaue the principle is the same.

Someone in brazil has an EFI BIOS for a gigabyte board that boots Mac OS X unassisted, the only reason that it isn't public knowledge is so that when the project is completed to the developers (and those involved) satisfaction it can be offered for a fee without having to worry about competition.

A couple of people I chat with on a regular basis are also working on a similar project involving an Intel DX58SO motherboard which is the X58 reference board used in the design of the MacPro4,1 logic board.

Does anyone know the part number for the SMC chip that is claimed hold this magical KEY or it's phyical location on the logic board (I looked and couldn't find it)?

Claims that a chip made by apple contains a 64bit key is also incorrect, the KEY is an array of bytes stored in NVRAM and accessed by rom code which is virtual (mimmics) hardware.

I think it would help if you wish to participate in a discussion you at least accept that an offered opinion might not be the same as yours and engage them rather than trying to make yourself look like an invincible villian on a mission to make everyone else look like a fool would be far more contributing.

 

[KnightWRX]

It amazes me that in a discussion people are attacked for offering opinions and conjecture.

It amazes me that you resurrected an old thread to post this.

 

[abriwin]

Apple has a trick or two up it's aly enclosure!

Apple will IMHO begin selling Macs with the OS installed on the A4 chip, no more discs!
Upgrades will take place automatically down the net!