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Apple’s MacBook Pro: Rotting Core? What Apple Doesn't Want You To Realize.

I love seeing these threads where geeks get all excited over specs.

My MBP 2,8 17" running Snow Leopard provides a fanstastic computing experience for many reasons.

I can't be bothered to worry about the processor I don't have as the one I have does a very fine job in running the software that I use.
 
Frosties said:
57a2ab8a5e.jpg

The Dell E6500 has a digital display port just not Apples mini display port.
Back side showing (modem);LAN, display port, power socket.

...
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The photo of the system I found on the Dell site showed a VGA socket. If it's an old photo, then apologies. Unfortunately it is the only info I can go by.
 
dukebound85 said:
That is NOT the point

I am aggravated by the fact that apple is selling OLD tech for PREMIUM prices

That is what grinds my gears

To accept this behavior by apple is somewhat shocking and sad
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So, what I said wasn't what you were talking about...yet I'm sad for liking their new stuff? I'm confused. I didn't mention their new stuff really, I was saying that most folks don't need all that horsepower anyway.
 
dukebound85 said:
That is NOT the point

I am aggravated by the fact that apple is selling OLD tech for PREMIUM prices

That is what grinds my gears

To accept this behavior by apple is somewhat shocking and sad
Click to expand...

But why does it "grind your gears"? I assume it's because you want something Mac. You want it badly enough that you haven't just moved on to alternative solutions. You may not be able to afford it (and I don't know what you can afford, so I am not making asssumptions!)... but you want Apple stuff badly enough that it is worth your time to come to a forum and complain about your perceived over valuation.

This is not specific just to Dukebound, but to everyone who posts similar messages here. For just about everything else you want to purchase you look at the price and decide if the value of the product to you is worth the price. If you think it is overpriced, you find an alternative. Do you stand in the middle of the supermarket and tell people that the price of that brand of coffee "grinds your gears" because its too expensive. I don't know you, maybe you do? I don't want to make any assumptions here.

Why doesn't Dukebound (and others making similar posts) just decide that a Mac's value to them does not justify the price, and then find alternatives.

I don't mean this in a snarky, sarcastic, 'invitation to leave' way... I'm truly perplexed. Maybe there really are people who stand in the middle of a department store and complain to passersby that this shirt is is not worth the price, and it would be "shocking and sad" if people actually bought it.

I don't know, maybe I'm missing something ... perhaps where I shop is just much more pleasant, peaceful and quiet than other's experiences?

:)
 
Hal Itosis said:
I was aware of the Clarks/Arran/dale distinction (thanks). You are correct inasmuch as major (like Sony and hp) notebooks are not in stores today, AFAIK... but some other brands appear to have been out for 2 months already:

PC Perspective -- Jan. 3

Tech Report -- Jan. 4

CES 2010: Arrandale Arrives -- Jan. 8

[i guess that Asus K42F is just using Intel's GPU(?), so that's no big deal perhaps]

Anyway... please don't put in the position of defending (or having to defend) the PC perspective.
Click to expand...
That Asus K42F that is previewed by PC Perspective and Tech Report was a pre-production sample, not a shipping product.

PC Perspective said the following in their Jan. 3 preview:
For our initial testing of the new Arrandale processor we will be putting a few notebooks through the paces without really "reviewing" the notebooks themselves. This is because the first Arrandale machine we got from ASUS was an early engineering sample for platform qualification and as such is a little rough around the edges. Don't worry though, we'll be taking a look at the finished product very soon.
Click to expand...
However, as yet PC Perspective hasn't provided a review on the finished product (I guess that "very soon" means more than two months).

Tech Report said the following in their Jan. 4 preview:
Arrandale arrived on my doorstep inside a pre-production version of Asus' upcoming K42F 14." notebook.
Click to expand...
As for the AnandTech link, that just consists of pre-announcements made at CES.

In any case, there is online evidence that in the last few weeks Arrandale-equipped laptops have begun to ship in limited configurations and quantities. However, that's a far cry from the six-month-late claim made in the "Rotting Core" article (that author was obviously confusing the quad-core Clarksfield processor and the desktop Core i7/i5s with something that could actually be used in the current form-factor MacBook Pro). It also seems likely that few if any Arrandale units shipped in January. So, that leaves the last few weeks to any claim that Apple is shipping outdated processors.

Lastly, I'd be particularly interested in any hands-on reviews that are using Arrandale with NVIDIA's Optimus technology. Based upon rumors, it seems likely that this is what Apple will be using in the next generation MacBook Pros. Of course, it could be that Arrandale with Optimus isn't ready yet, which if true means that Apple can't be overly late in shipping something that isn't available to any manufacturer.
 
snberk103 said:
A) 3rd party retailers can and do price items differently, and sometimes at a loss to clear inventory. That's why I went to the Dell and Apple stores. I could have gone to a 3rd party Apple retailer and received a better price on the MBP.

B) There are some significant differences in the two systems you have quoted. Bigger HD on the Mac (320 vs 250), backlit keyboard on the Mac, Gigabit ethernet on the Mac, digital video output port on the Mac, and optical audio in/out on the Mac. When I priced out the Dell in my comparison I had to optionally add a bunch of stuff to make it equivalent to the MBP.

To be fair the Dell has a faster (though smaller) HD, and there are more pixels on the screen. Usually the Dells use an inferior grade of monitor however, and the MBPs use a better grade. One way to tell the quality is move to side and see how far you can go before the colours shift. Macs tend to have better screens.

My point is not "Which is Better", however - the two systems are not functionally equivalent, and therefore price comparisons are not valid. And, 3rd party retailers may be discounting to clear stock. That's why I went to the manufacturer's stores.
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No two systems are identical unless they are the same system. That doesn't mean price comparisons are never valid. It may not be valid to say "machine X is $50 overpriced compared to machine Y" because of these little differences, but when the difference is 100% of the lower-priced machine's price, the comparison is entirely valid.

Also, some of the differences you point out are silly. Gigabit Ethernet? Really? Did you really think the Dell doesn't have it? The models I picked are as equivalent as possible from my school's configurations. The MBP has a bigger HD but the Dell has a faster one. The MBP has a better GPU but the Dell has a faster CPU, etc. etc. The point was not to get two identical systems, because that is impossible. The point was to find two similar enough in configuration to make this comparison valid.

And no, you cannot find a better price on either the Dell or the MBP than what I've quoted here. The Dell is not being sold for a loss, it is their education pricing for large institutions with contracts that has been the same since this model was available. The MBP is also sold at special education pricig for large institutions. Your point about third party retailers is irrelevant, because my original post specifically referred to prices at my school.
 
snberk103 said:
The photo of the system I found on the Dell site showed a VGA socket. If it's an old photo, then apologies. Unfortunately it is the only info I can go by.
Click to expand...

You are not making any sense. Because it shows a VGA socket, it cannot therefore have a digital output?

How about you actually read the specs? It has both.
 
snberk103 said:
I don't mean this in a snarky, sarcastic, 'invitation to leave' way... I'm truly perplexed. Maybe there really are people who stand in the middle of a department store and complain to passersby that this shirt is is not worth the price, and it would be "shocking and sad" if people actually bought it.
Click to expand...

This is silly. A department store is not a place where people discuss prices with passerby. But a forum is just that kind of place. You are aware that you are visiting a forum site, right?
 
fpnc said:
In any case, there is online evidence that in the last few weeks Arrandale-equipped laptops have begun to ship in limited configurations and quantities. However, that's a far cry from the six-month-late claim made in the "Rotting Core" article (that author was obviously confusing the quad-core Clarksfield processor and the desktop Core i7/i5s with something that could actually be used in the current form-factor MacBook Pro).
Click to expand...
I agree that much, if not most, of the anguished hyperbole here about Apple letting itself get far behind other manufacturers has been overblown.

I bought an early 17 inch aluminum Powerbook G4 in the spring of 2003. Apple did not then upgrade its aluminum body laptop with another CPU until the MBP line was introduced in 2006. Testing of the current unibody MBP lineup did not begin until May 2009 and it was not released for sale until after that. Thus, the whining over "unacceptable" delays in rolling out another upgrade in early March 2010 tends to make my eyes glaze over.
 
solarein said:
No two systems are identical unless they are the same system. That doesn't mean price comparisons are never valid. It may not be valid to say "machine X is $50 overpriced compared to machine Y" because of these little differences, but when the difference is 100% of the lower-priced machine's price, the comparison is entirely valid.
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I know that it is hard to compare systems because of differences that can't be make entirely equivalent. See below for some mea culpa's.
solarein said:
Also, some of the differences you point out are silly. Gigabit Ethernet?
Really? Did you really think the Dell doesn't have it?
Click to expand...
First mea culpa - missed the gigabit ethernet first time round.
solarein said:
The models I picked are as equivalent as possible from my school's configurations. The MBP has a bigger HD but the Dell has a faster one. The MBP has a better GPU but the Dell has a faster CPU, etc. etc. The point was not to get two identical systems, because that is impossible. The point was to find two similar enough in configuration to make this comparison valid.

And no, you cannot find a better price on either the Dell or the MBP than what I've quoted here. The Dell is not being sold for a loss, it is their education pricing for large institutions with contracts that has been the same since this model was available. The MBP is also sold at special education pricig for large institutions. Your point about third party retailers is irrelevant, because my original post specifically referred to prices at my school.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but your school qualifies as a 3rd party reseller. And a 3rd party that is not available to the majority of the population. That is like comparing the prices that a large corporate fleet can purchase cars for. Its not valid to the rest of the world. And, for all you know Dell is selling their systems for a loss to the educational market to build market share. Does it make the Mac overpriced, or the Dell underpriced (and a terrific value!). My point is that prices are not based on the value of the components.... but on lots of other factors.

solarein said:
You are not making any sense. Because it shows a VGA socket, it cannot therefore have a digital output?

How about you actually read the specs? It has both.
Click to expand...

Second mea culpa. Though this one is not hard to understand. When the Dell site proudly displayed the VGA port on the Gallery page, and made no mention of the digital output, I made an assumption. Bad me.


However When I priced the systems at the Dell and Apple sites, I had to add lots of options to the Dell (little things, like a backlit keyboard, and n-draft wifi) to bring the Dell as close as I could get to the Mac. And I noted in my post the faster HD on the Dell, and the better resolution of the screen. And when I had matched as close as possible from the two retailers systems that the majority of people could access, the difference was $200 - not the "half as much" claimed.

All your post confirms is that Dells available to the general public are way over priced, and that maybe that your school's computer store didn't do a very good job negotiating a volume discount with Apple. :)
 
has everyone forgotten the Dell -Mac-look-a-like ?

So go look up Dell's Aluminum bodied, core2Duo, no cd/dvd driver "luxury" laptop and see what the specs and prices are for one of those.
Adamo
 
gwsat said:
I agree that much, if not most, of the anguished hyperbole here about Apple letting itself get far behind other manufacturers has been overblown.

I bought an early 17 inch aluminum Powerbook G4 in the spring of 2003. Apple did not then upgrade its aluminum body laptop with another CPU until the MBP line was introduced in 2006. Testing of the current unibody MBP lineup did not begin until May 2009 and it was not released for sale until after that. Thus, the whining over "unacceptable" delays in rolling out another upgrade in early March 2010 tends to make my eyes glaze over.
Click to expand...

I think a lot of this <complaining> is related to the constant release on new Windows-based laptops from a host of manufacturers throughout any given year while only Apple makes Macs and will release products at their own pace.

Even the most hardcore Apple advocate must admit there hasn't been a large specification boost in some time. Other than the battery boost and some ram drive options and ports there really hasn't been much movement for more than a year.

We do forget that many of these new Windows laptops are much thicker to accommodate Blu-ray and additional cooling. Even when they are the stylish; like the Sony Z series, Sony customers complain there are no traditional hard disk options and they cost too much (13.1" @ $1899 to start!)

I think it's unfair to complain about Apple continuing to sell the current line at premium prices. Apple is a "for profit" company and will charge what the market will bear. Sales will see an uptick once an update is released but that is no reason to lessen profits while they develop their next laptop offering.

I personally am considering selling my 2.8 uMBP just to maximize profit before the new systems are released. I can do so because my iMac is fine for now and I can live with the company provided PC until it gets released.

Cheers,
 
gfiz said:
even if one agrees to your argument (which unfortunately there are holes to since arrandale cpu's have been selling for well over a month now in some lines), the other half of the argument is much more compelling. Not only is Apple behind (arguably), but they're also selling their C2D line at an unheard of tax comparatively. If Apple wants to sell state of the art technology at a premium, that's one thing (they used to be one of if not the first with new updates). Selling 4 year old tech at prices 3-4x of what some competitors are selling it at is just obscene.
Click to expand...
First, it's hardly four-year-old technology. The latest 15" and 17" MacBook Pros were updated in June 2009 and they offered a lot of improvements over what Apple shipped in 2006 (the latter would be four-year-old technology). Furthermore, you seem to be equating raw CPU technology with overall system technology which isn't exactly the best way to value your purchases. But, I grant you that Apple sometimes sells at a hefty premium and the Core 2 Duo is pretty much at the end of its lifetime.

As for the claim that Arrandale laptops have been shipping for well over a month, well doesn't that mean that at worst the current MacBook Pros are a month behind the competition's CPUs? What I'd like to see is a shipping PC laptop that is using the top-of-the-line Arrandale i7-620M with switchable graphics (preferably with NVIDIA's Optimus technology). Would you like to provide a link to such a product with shipping estimates or even a review/preview of that product?

gfiz said:
please...but be careful :cool: (I'm not confusing Arrandale with Clarkdale if that's what you're hinting at)
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I think you may have meant Clarksfield, not Clarkdale (the latter is a newly introduced desktop part with two cores and an integrated graphics processor -- similar to the Arrandale design -- while the former is a high-power-consumption, quad-core mobile CPU that shipped last year).
 
Mac still is better hardware than most Windows systems.
My MacBook is so much better than my friends Hell Inspiron,he's got s 2.1Ghz Intel Dual Pentium something or another versus my 2.26Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo.and I have 2GB of DDR3 ram to his 3GB of DDR2.And I have 256MB DDR3 VRAM Nvidea Geforce compared to his crummy Intel Integraded graphics.
Mac still smokes most Windows systems for sure.
 
macgeek18 said:
Mac still is better hardware than most Windows systems.
My MacBook is so much better than my friends Hell Inspiron,he's got s 2.1Ghz Intel Dual Pentium something or another versus my 2.26Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo.and I have 2GB of DDR3 ram to his 3GB of DDR2.And I have 256MB DDR3 VRAM Nvidea Geforce compared to his crummy Intel Integraded graphics.
Mac still smokes most Windows systems for sure.
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Pathetic! He PC was probably very cheap. You can't compare those. Try comparing A Mac and PC with very similar specs. BIG PRICE DIFFERENCE. I can get a kick ass Dell Studio notebook, thats way more powerful then the base 15inch MBP for $1398
 
Most people do not care about specs, and Apple doesn't have to care about their specs or their prices as long as the average consumer still has the taste of Vista in their mouth.

For 99% of the consumer public, the interface used to customize their taskbar is more a purchase decision than a CPU that is 40% faster.

Truth.

As to their pricing:

There is NOTHING WRONG with keeping high prices, if people choose to pay them.

If I offer a Tannoy monitor speaker repair service, and the price is $150,000/pc, I am doing nothing wrong, as long as I am not utilizing anti-competitive tactics to keep others from offering said service for between $150-$400.

If people are stupid enough to pay the $150k - or even if they aren't, and just feel like paying it because I'm the ****, that's their perogative. It's a free market. Apple will lower their prices or update their hardware when they feel the pain of competition, and they clearly have not.

They're riding the wave of vista. A lot of people are still getting over their disgust at microsoft for vista. Most people are not early adopters who see that 7 is here. Up until a few months ago the average computer I met had a default web browser of IE6.

Only when Apple feels the crunch and lost sales will they innovate again.
 
l.a.rossmann said:
Most people do not care about specs, and Apple doesn't have to care about their specs or their prices as long as the average consumer still has the taste of Vista in their mouth.

For 99% of the consumer public, the interface used to customize their taskbar is more a purchase decision than a CPU that is 40% faster.

Truth.

As to their pricing:

There is NOTHING WRONG with keeping high prices, if people choose to pay them.

If I offer a Tannoy monitor speaker repair service, and the price is $150,000/pc, I am doing nothing wrong, as long as I am not utilizing anti-competitive tactics to keep others from offering said service for between $150-$400.

If people are stupid enough to pay the $150k - or even if they aren't, and just feel like paying it because I'm the ****, that's their perogative. It's a free market. Apple will lower their prices or update their hardware when they feel the pain of competition, and they clearly have not.

They're riding the wave of vista. A lot of people are still getting over their disgust at microsoft for vista. Most people are not early adopters who see that 7 is here. Up until a few months ago the average computer I met had a default web browser of IE6.

Only when Apple feels the crunch and lost sales will they innovate again.
Click to expand...

That's not how fairness works. Just because it's a free market doesn't mean pricing is always fair or just. There are plenty of cases where prices are declared unfair or contracts declared invalid even when both parties willingly entered into the agreement. There may be asymmetric information or other factors in play.
 
fpnc said:
That Asus K42F that is previewed by PC Perspective and Tech Report was a pre-production sample, not a shipping product.

<snip>

As for the AnandTech link, that just consists of pre-announcements made at CES.

In any case, there is online evidence that in the last few weeks Arrandale-equipped laptops have begun to ship in limited configurations and quantities. However, that's a far cry from the six-month-late claim made in the "Rotting Core" article (that author was obviously confusing the quad-core Clarksfield processor and the desktop Core i7/i5s with something that could actually be used in the current form-factor MacBook Pro). It also seems likely that few if any Arrandale units shipped in January. So, that leaves the last few weeks to any claim that Apple is shipping outdated processors.
Click to expand...
Excellent research... thanks for clarifying the situation (my bad). I just read your post here as well. So it seems that most of what the competition *actually* has out there is not only rather recent, but rather skimpy (GPU-wise) as well.


fpnc said:
Lastly, I'd be particularly interested in any hands-on reviews that are using Arrandale with NVIDIA's Optimus technology. Based upon rumors, it seems likely that this is what Apple will be using in the next generation MacBook Pros. Of course, it could be that Arrandale with Optimus isn't ready yet, which if true means that Apple can't be overly late in shipping something that isn't available to any manufacturer.
Click to expand...
Well, i read somewhere that the "software portion" of Optimus is Windows-only at the moment... so i suspect that may be the delay factor for Apple (assuming nVidia turns out to be the winner over ATI that is).
 
netdog said:
I love seeing these threads where geeks get all excited over specs.

My MBP 2,8 17" running Snow Leopard provides a fanstastic computing experience for many reasons.

I can't be bothered to worry about the processor I don't have as the one I have does a very fine job in running the software that I use.
Click to expand...

Congratulations.

Don't forget that there areother users that do require cutting-edge gear, and are in the market for such.

Your own experience is valid -- just don't ***** on other people's needs.
 
solarein said:
That's not how fairness works. Just because it's a free market doesn't mean pricing is always fair or just. There are plenty of cases where prices are declared unfair or contracts declared invalid even when both parties willingly entered into the agreement. There may be asymmetric information or other factors in play.
Click to expand...

Name one. Name just one example where a retailer was forced to roll back prices or refund a purchase, and where there was no subterfuge, coercion, unlawful practices, false advertizing, monopoly, etc. And where the product is a discretionary purchase. Basically, can you find just one example that is analogous to the current discussion
 
Pace of Technology

Pace of hardware is faster than software!! Bar none! At any given hardware, its the software that uses the hardware to provide a user experience. Why have a superior hardware tech when there are no softwares that need it. Sure, those software may be in the pipeline, but when will they come out. By the time they do, newer hardware comes out. So, Apple looks at pace of technology and uses best compenonts. Speed, storage, battery life, great UIs, and smoothness are things we look for in a great computer. The slowest component in a computer can wreck the experience.
 
Hal Itosis said:
...Well, i read somewhere that the "software portion" of Optimus is Windows-only at the moment... so i suspect that may be the delay factor for Apple (assuming nVidia turns out to be the winner over ATI that is).
Click to expand...
I think AnandTech said that while the technology held great promise they noted some odd behaviors during NVIDIA's own preview of the Optimus technology (flashing black screen when playing games). So, the driver software may not be totally debugged even under Windows (at least as of late January). Given this, and assuming that Apple wants to ship the next MacBooks with Optimus enabled, it could mean additional delays for anyone who plans on using Optimus. However, they could ship with Optimus-enabled hardware (just about any recent NVIDIA GPU) and update the software at a later time.
 
snberk103 said:
Name one. Name just one example where a retailer was forced to roll back prices or refund a purchase, and where there was no subterfuge, coercion, unlawful practices, false advertizing, monopoly, etc. And where the product is a discretionary purchase. Basically, can you find just one example that is analogous to the current discussion
Click to expand...

Not a retailer, but a case that illustrates that a fully consensual contract is not necessarily just: http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...cYSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=nPkDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2902,2715745
 
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