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Not a retailer, but a case that illustrates that a fully consensual contract is not necessarily just: http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...cYSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=nPkDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2902,2715745

It was illegal. There is a law against what the contractors were doing, so it's not analogous to Apple's pricing.

The difference is that the contractors don't quote the same price for every customer, but quote the inflated the price only to those who they have identified as vulnerable. They make up the price as they go along.

I don't count that as an example since there is a difference in law.
 
It was illegal. There is a law against what the contractors were doing, so it's not analogous to Apple's pricing.

The difference is that the contractors don't quote the same price for every customer, but quote the inflated the price only to those who they have identified as vulnerable. They make up the price as they go along.

I don't count that as an example since there is a difference in law.

Huh? I didn't say anything about Apple's pricing. I was making a general comment that simply because a transaction was made on a free market with no coercion or misinformation does not mean it was fair. I don't have much of a problem with Apple's pricing. What I have a problem with is this line of reasoning used to defend that pricing that I see all the time.
 
As for the claim that Arrandale laptops have been shipping for well over a month, well doesn't that mean that at worst the current MacBook Pros are a month behind the competition's CPUs? What I'd like to see is a shipping PC laptop that is using the top-of-the-line Arrandale i7-620M with switchable graphics (preferably with NVIDIA's Optimus technology). Would you like to provide a link to such a product with shipping estimates or even a review/preview of that product?

#1 - not a claim, arrandale includes i3 3xxM, i5 4xxM, i5 5xxM, & i7 6xxM among other variations.
#2 - why the i7 620M chip specifically? Are you maintaining that that's the only chip the new MBP's will come configured with, so it excuses the lateness? I guess I can buy that, except for the fact that It is almost a certainty that the 13" will not contain an i7, and likely not the 15" either. Of course this become moot next week anyway as HP has i7 620M's with expected ship dates of 3/14.
#3 - you're also making an assumption that Apple is going to even use Nvidia, which I would say is probably not as likely as some people think. I would find it very odd that Apple would switch to a mobile ATI solution in their newest iMac, and then revert back to Nvidia for their next line. And that's not even recognizing that Nvidia has fallen a generation behind ATI now in mobile performance.
 
#1 - not a claim, arrandale includes i3 3xxM, i5 4xxM, i5 5xxM, & i7 6xxM among other variations.
Hardly to the point at hand, as: most (90%?) of those laptops that shipped early on are just using Intel's own integrated graphics processor. [is that what you want? -- fine, go for it. ;) ]


#2 - why the i7 620M chip specifically? Are you maintaining that that's the only chip the new MBP's will come configured with, so it excuses the lateness? I guess I can buy that, except for the fact that It is almost a certainty that the 13" will not contain an i7, and likely not the 15" either.
Not even BTO? Every "prediction" or "indicator" i've seen thus far suggests the i7 will be available for the 15" built to order. [you seem to be clutching at every straw imaginable.]


Of course this become moot next week anyway as HP has i7 620M's with expected ship dates of 3/14.
:D Game over... you win. Since hp will ship Arrandale [+ATI?] a week from now, that totally justifies the thousands of whiney-ass posts this site's forums have endured for the past few weeks.

Apple is doomed. DOOMED I SAY! :cool:
 
Without a doubt apple seriously needs to update its entire pro line.

I am hoping that apple is working on a serious refresh.

The core i5/7 are an absolute must

auto switching between itegrated/discrete graphics.

What happened to robson technology? System software on flash memory plus a standard HD?

Cheaper SSDs.

Blu-ray?

Redesign? Not necessary.
 
What happened to robson technology?
As i recall (from reading up during the Santa Rosa release), Robson's flash-based memory caching was tied on the software side to some feature in Vista called "ReadyBoost". -- idunno if Snow Leopard (or 10.5 even) ever included any such ability to do whatever it is Vista does there.

Good question... maybe someone else knows?
 
As i recall (from reading up during the Santa Rosa release), Robson's flash-based memory caching was tied on the software side to some feature in Vista called "ReadyBoost". -- idunno if Snow Leopard (or 10.5 even) ever included any such ability to do whatever it is Vista does there.

Good question... maybe someone else knows?

nah OSX never had that feature of using usb sticks as temporary memory. would be nice thought thats for sure! i would purchase 2xusb sticks and RAID1 them :D
 
Name one. Name just one example where a retailer was forced to roll back prices or refund a purchase, and where there was no subterfuge, coercion, unlawful practices, false advertizing, monopoly, etc. And where the product is a discretionary purchase. Basically, can you find just one example that is analogous to the current discussion

I have a Studies in Contracts casebook from law school full of such things. I could point you to over a dozen cases just from that one book. Contracts can be rendered void for, among other things: lack of mutual assent, formal construction failures (mirror image rule and whatnot), unconscionability, mistake, capacity issues....the goes on and on.

The issue with Apple isn't the legality of their pricing, charge what you can get, obviously. The conscionability of the pricing is probably more suspect. Obviously though, no contract would be rendered void because of what Apple does in selling its computers to individuals, they are offering a product, consumers offer a price, Apple accepts the price and the deal is done. The only other consideration is their monopoly of OSX, but I don't think it is an issue until their market share begins to increase, sorry to say, but for the DOJ to look up and take notice, you need more than a 10-12% share of the market.

However, legality does not preclude consumers that are so inclined from taking other measures to get their point across. Boycotts, petitions, etc....but come on, Apple deals in numbers that make such action irrelevant. Besides, what would Apple do? Release a computer. Then we all buy their offerings, making them more money.
 
fpnc said:
As for the claim that Arrandale laptops have been shipping for well over a month, well doesn't that mean that at worst the current MacBook Pros are a month behind the competition's CPUs? What I'd like to see is a shipping PC laptop that is using the top-of-the-line Arrandale i7-620M with switchable graphics (preferably with NVIDIA's Optimus technology). Would you like to provide a link to such a product with shipping estimates or even a review/preview of that product?
#1 - not a claim, arrandale includes i3 3xxM, i5 4xxM, i5 5xxM, & i7 6xxM among other variations.
#2 - why the i7 620M chip specifically? Are you maintaining that that's the only chip the new MBP's will come configured with, so it excuses the lateness? I guess I can buy that, except for the fact that It is almost a certainty that the 13" will not contain an i7, and likely not the 15" either. Of course this become moot next week anyway as HP has i7 620M's with expected ship dates of 3/14.
#3 - you're also making an assumption that Apple is going to even use Nvidia, which I would say is probably not as likely as some people think. I would find it very odd that Apple would switch to a mobile ATI solution in their newest iMac, and then revert back to Nvidia for their next line. And that's not even recognizing that Nvidia has fallen a generation behind ATI now in mobile performance.
Your point #1 is pretty baseless since none of the Arrandales (mobile Core i7/i5/i3) began shipping in any quantity until just this last month. So, it doesn't make any difference which one you pick and my suggestion "that at worst the current MacBook Pros are a month behind the competition's CPUs" is still perfectly valid.

As to your point #2, I'm just making the observation that among the reviewed and/or shipping PC laptops the 2.66GH/3.33GHz turbo Core i7-620Ms seem to be few and far between. Thus, with that chip it makes even less sense to claim that Apple is long overdue with their update to Arrandale. When Apple updates the MacBook Pros it is likely that the entire lineup will move to Arrandale which could mean the i7-620M on the high-end. In fact, as I've previously mentioned in one of the MacRumors threads the i7-620M is the only Arrandale processor that should soundly beat the existing 3.06GHz Core 2 Duo in all tasks. The mid-range i5-540M Arrandale should be equal in many and better on some tasks than the current 3.06GHz Core 2 Duo but I think it would be a little embarrassing for Apple to ship a new MacBook Pro with a top-end limited to only the 2.53GHz/3.07GHz turbo i5-540M. Also, Arrandale's integrated graphics processor will be a step down from today's NVIDIA 9400M so Apple is either going to have to ship a system with the i7-620M or be satisfied with an update that is actually no faster in many ways than their existing high-end (if you ignore gains that should be made with an updated discrete GPU). I agree, however, that it is certainly possible that the i7-620M will ship initially only in the 17" MacBook Pro. That would leave the i5-540M to dominate over the current mid-range 15" MacBook Pro that uses the 2.66GHz Core 2 Duo.

As to point #3, you're correct that no one knows what graphics chip set will be in the next version of the MacBook Pros. However, the only way that Apple will be able to provide seamless and automatic graphics switching between Arrandale's integrated graphics processor and a higher-performance discrete GPU is with NVIDIA's Optimus technology. Furthermore, AnandTech has estimated that it could be another year before such technology is available from ATI and I suspect that Apple will choose seamless graphics switching from NVIDIA with its potential for battery savings over a simply faster mobile GPU from ATI. In fact, I'd freely admit that Apple seldom puts the fastest available GPUs in their systems so the choice between NVIDIA and ATI will probably be made on some other metric than raw pixel-pushing performance.
 
hi y'all, i got question, since the current nvidia graphic chips on the MBP are incompatible with the new intel i-series, is the new ION nvidia technology compatible with the i-series? like it's said to be 10x faster with 10 hours of battery life with the Optimus technology , and that's what apple always aim to... so do we expect that on the new macbook pro's ? thanks :)
 
Congratulations.

Don't forget that there areother users that do require cutting-edge gear, and are in the market for such.

Your own experience is valid -- just don't ***** on other people's needs.

People keep throwing this out there, but failing to substantiate it.

What prithee, are you doing that requires such cutting edge gear that you can't wait for Apple to get the engineering done on the next model?
 
People keep throwing this out there, but failing to substantiate it.

What prithee, are you doing that requires such cutting edge gear that you can't wait for Apple to get the engineering done on the next model?

It's usually gaming from what I've been able to tell... :rolleyes:
 
Your point #1 is pretty baseless since none of the Arrandales (mobile Core i7/i5/i3) began shipping in any quantity until just this last month. So, it doesn't make any difference which one you pick and my suggestion "that at worst the current MacBook Pros are a month behind the competition's CPUs" is still perfectly valid.


what are you TALKING about? People have had their envy's and various other notebook lines shipping out less than a week after the Arrandale was formally announced by Intel January 7th at CES. That means that right now we're almost a full 2 months behind.

I'm all for informed discussion...but not for inventing your own history to suit the needs to your debate points.
 
Blah blah blah, Dell are great, Blah blah blah, Apple are too expensive, blah blah blah.

Oh, and I run OSX on my Latitude D620.
I hate Apple's specs for their computers. I love the Software though.

You should come to terms with the envy & bitterness you feel towards owners of genuine Apple products. :mad:

I think someone needs a hug:D
 
hi y'all, i got question, since the current nvidia graphic chips on the MBP are incompatible with the new intel i-series, is the new ION nvidia technology compatible with the i-series? like it's said to be 10x faster with 10 hours of battery life with the Optimus technology , and that's what apple always aim to... so do we expect that on the new macbook pro's ? thanks :)

yea so thay can have i5, optimus and ion
better graphics
better battery life
faster cpu
that would be a great lil spec bump
 
Your point #1 is pretty baseless since none of the Arrandales (mobile Core i7/i5/i3) began shipping in any quantity until just this last month. So, it doesn't make any difference which one you pick and my suggestion "that at worst the current MacBook Pros are a month behind the competition's CPUs" is still perfectly valid.

As to your point #2, I'm just making the observation that among the reviewed and/or shipping PC laptops the 2.66GH/3.33GHz turbo Core i7-620Ms seem to be few and far between. Thus, with that chip it makes even less sense to claim that Apple is long overdue with their update to Arrandale. When Apple updates the MacBook Pros it is likely that the entire lineup will move to Arrandale which could mean the i7-620M on the high-end. In fact, as I've previously mentioned in one of the MacRumors threads the i7-620M is the only Arrandale processor that should soundly beat the existing 3.06GHz Core 2 Duo in all tasks. The mid-range i5-540M Arrandale should be equal in many and better on some tasks than the current 3.06GHz Core 2 Duo but I think it would be a little embarrassing for Apple to ship a new MacBook Pro with a top-end limited to only the 2.53GHz/3.07GHz turbo i5-540M. Also, Arrandale's integrated graphics processor will be a step down from today's NVIDIA 9400M so Apple is either going to have to ship a system with the i7-620M or be satisfied with an update that is actually no faster in many ways than their existing high-end (if you ignore gains that should be made with an updated discrete GPU). I agree, however, that it is certainly possible that the i7-620M will ship initially only in the 17" MacBook Pro. That would leave the i5-540M to dominate over the current mid-range 15" MacBook Pro that uses the 2.66GHz Core 2 Duo.

As to point #3, you're correct that no one knows what graphics chip set will be in the next version of the MacBook Pros. However, the only way that Apple will be able to provide seamless and automatic graphics switching between Arrandale's integrated graphics processor and a higher-performance discrete GPU is with NVIDIA's Optimus technology. Furthermore, AnandTech has estimated that it could be another year before such technology is available from ATI and I suspect that Apple will choose seamless graphics switching from NVIDIA with its potential for battery savings over a simply faster mobile GPU from ATI. In fact, I'd freely admit that Apple seldom puts the fastest available GPUs in their systems so the choice between NVIDIA and ATI will probably be made on some other metric than raw pixel-pushing performance.

Good post. I had been looking for info on when ATI might have that tech.
What NVIDIA GPU do you think Apple will use? the 330? man that thing is so bad.
 
The issue with Apple isn't the legality of their pricing, charge what you can get, obviously. The conscionability of the pricing is probably more suspect. Obviously though, no contract would be rendered void because of what Apple does in selling its computers to individuals, they are offering a product, consumers offer a price, Apple accepts the price and the deal is done
As you observed, Apple's sales to it customer are not the sort of transactions that will be examined for unconscionability. Typically, courts will accept an unconscionability defense only where one party's bargaining power is vastly superior to the other's. Think insurance contracts, where the insurer writes the policy and the insured's only choice in the matter was to take it or leave it. Such contracts are know in the law as contracts of adhesion, which the purchaser has to accept in full or there will be no contract. Even where insurance contracts are involved, they are seldom held to be void. The remedy given the insured is usually for the court to liberally construe the contract in in a way that prevents the insurer from denying coverage.[/law nerd lecture]

Despite the premium prices charged, I have never thought that I had obtained less than a reasonable bargain on any piece of Apple gear I have bought. It boils down to getting what you pay for and Apple has proved its worth in that regard for the 7 years I have been buying its products.
 
People keep throwing this out there, but failing to substantiate it.

What prithee, are you doing that requires such cutting edge gear that you can't wait for Apple to get the engineering done on the next model?

3D animation with high-poly, high-resolution textured models. Need fast, realtime, fully shaded and textured feedback for previsualization, and full-resolution rendering with either Global Illumination or Ambient Occlussion with raytracing.

So, I'm not just doing spreadsheets.
 
As you observed, Apple's sales to it customer are not the sort of transactions that will be examined for unconscionability. Typically, courts will accept an unconscionability defense only where one party's bargaining power is vastly superior to the other's. Think insurance contracts, where the insurer writes the policy and the insured's only choice in the matter was to take it or leave it. Such contracts are know in the law as contracts of adhesion, which the purchaser has to accept in full or there will be no contract. Even where insurance contracts are involved, they are seldom held to be void. The remedy given the insured is usually for the court to liberally construe the contract in in a way that prevents the insurer from denying coverage.[/law nerd lecture]

Despite the premium prices charged, I have never thought that I had obtained less than a reasonable bargain on any piece of Apple gear I have bought. It boils down to getting what you pay for and Apple has proved its worth in that regard for the 7 years I have been buying its products.


Gotta love the UCC. Value, in the court's eyes, is determined by the parties in the contract, not be third parties in a forum. That of course being the foundation of the "...courts do not inquire into the value of consideration." Which of course should be reformulated "...courts do not inquire into the value of consideration....except when they do."

Did you read Jones v. Star Credit? That was a good one...traveling salesmen. See, if Steve Jobs were to show up at my house and tell me that this MBP had the most up to date technology and was worth paying 4k for right now with 25% interest when he knew full well that I couldn't pay for it...then I'd have the bastard. As it is, we got nothing. Nothing but time to wait for the refresh....

"No interest is good unless it must vest, if at all, not later than 21 years after some life in being at the creation of the interest."---just thought I'd throw that in to give you some warm and fuzzy feelings.
 
Huh? I didn't say anything about Apple's pricing. I was making a general comment that simply because a transaction was made on a free market with no coercion or misinformation does not mean it was fair. I don't have much of a problem with Apple's pricing. What I have a problem with is this line of reasoning used to defend that pricing that I see all the time.

My assumption was that since this thread is about Apple's prices, then any comments made would be somehow connected back to the Prices Apple charges.

I was asking for examples of contracts, that are analogous to the situation we are talking about, where they were found to be unfair. In the newspaper article you cited the contractors did something that was illegal - there is a law that makes their actions unlawful. Therefore, it is not the same type of contract/arrangement/agreement.

But if you want to talk about contractors, then - OK. We just built a house and we had a great contractor. They have a way of thinking here, on our very nice little island, that is alien to us who come from the city. In the city we are taught that you hold back 10% to 15% of the final bill to ensure that the sub-trades will be motivated to return and fix any loose-ends. But here, you are supposed to pay the trades in full at the first opportunity because then they feel obliged to keep coming back until the job is done to your satisfaction.

I'm not sure what this has to do with Apple's pricing though....
 
"No interest is good unless it must vest, if at all, not later than 21 years after some life in being at the creation of the interest."---just thought I'd throw that in to give you some warm and fuzzy feelings.
Not only have I never been entirely clear about the impact of the Rule Against Perpetuities, I have also been confused by the Hearsay Rule for more than 50 years. Of course, SSDs and i5 chips confuse me nearly as much.:)
 
Not only have I never been entirely clear about the impact of the Rule Against Perpetuities, I have also been confused by the Hearsay Rule for more than 50 years. Of course, SSDs and i5 chips confuse me nearly as much.:)

My father, practicing for 30+ years as well is also unclear about the RAP. I've asked him and he says, "I don't know, I just know that it is in there and has to be." We are just now getting to good old Rule 801 now in my evidence class. Good times.

As far as computer tech goes, I'm basically in the dark. I only really look into it when I'm in the market for a new computer, and that is every 5-6 years. Ridiculous that I care about any of it, since all I do on a computer is type copious amounts of briefs and use the internet. But, somehow I seem to care about specs. Which is why Apple's (seemingly) late refresh of the MBP is so bothersome.

Where did you get your JD, by the way?
 
I have a Studies in Contracts casebook from law school full of such things. I could point you to over a dozen cases just from that one book. Contracts can be rendered void for, among other things: lack of mutual assent, formal construction failures (mirror image rule and whatnot), unconscionability, mistake, capacity issues....the goes on and on.
I'm not saying that contracts can't be overturned for a variety of reasons. I'm asking for an example that is analogous to the topic of this thread. And I think you agree that there won't be one (based on your comments just below).
The issue with Apple isn't the legality of their pricing, charge what you can get, obviously. The conscionability of the pricing is probably more suspect. Obviously though, no contract would be rendered void because of what Apple does in selling its computers to individuals, they are offering a product, consumers offer a price, Apple accepts the price and the deal is done. The only other consideration is their monopoly of OSX, but I don't think it is an issue until their market share begins to increase, sorry to say, but for the DOJ to look up and take notice, you need more than a 10-12% share of the market.
I've not quite sure how the price of a discretionary purchase can be "unconscionable"..... would you say the same about a diamond? Or if you use your computer for work, a hammer? When there is a shelf of hammers at all different prices and quality?
However, legality does not preclude consumers that are so inclined from taking other measures to get their point across. Boycotts, petitions, etc....but come on, Apple deals in numbers that make such action irrelevant. Besides, what would Apple do? Release a computer. Then we all buy their offerings, making them more money.
Consumers have always had this power. Its called buying someone else's product. Why should Apple be so special that it deserves boycotts and petitions for simply pricing their products profitably. Shouldn't boycotts and petitions be reserved for things that are important. Like putting pressure on companies to clean up their factories, use less toxic material in their products, stop using sweat-shops to melt down e-waste, etc etc?

Why are so many people so obsessed with the prices Apple charges? And not other company's prices?
 
I'm not saying that contracts can't be overturned for a variety of reasons. I'm asking for an example that is analogous to the topic of this thread. And I think you agree that there won't be one (based on your comments just below).

I've not quite sure how the price of a discretionary purchase can be "unconscionable"..... would you say the same about a diamond? Or if you use your computer for work, a hammer? When there is a shelf of hammers at all different prices and quality?

Consumers have always had this power. Its called buying someone else's product. Why should Apple be so special that it deserves boycotts and petitions for simply pricing their products profitably. Shouldn't boycotts and petitions be reserved for things that are important. Like putting pressure on companies to clean up their factories, use less toxic material in their products, stop using sweat-shops to melt down e-waste, etc etc?

Why are so many people so obsessed with the prices Apple charges? And not other company's prices?


Discretionary purchases are not protected from the rules of unconscionability. The (and this is as nerdy as it gets) Uniform Commercial Code s 2-302 expresses the law, and is applicable to all contracts for the sale of goods (provided of course that the state in question has adopted the UCC, which nearly all have). Discretionary purchases don't really enter into it on a theoretical level. Practically speaking the court may find necessary purchases more susceptible to such a rule, but still, the law is there to protect whether discretionary or not. The law of contracts is filled with cases where voluntary, discretionary purchases are rendered void for unconscionability. Diamonds, hammers, household appliances...computers, it doesn't matter.

Is there a literal correlative to this instance, where a company has a product for sale, is not pressuring anyone to buy and whose clientèle have opportunity to research/decide for themselves? Probably somewhere a court has decided that someone purchased something that in some way was part of an uncscionable contract in a situation similar to this one. But it isn't because of just pricing or innovation schedules. It is behavioral. The one I think of was with regards to a dishwasher and a traveling salesman, pressuring a destitute woman into buying into a contract with massive interest....That being said, every set of facts is different from the next but the gist can be the same. Like I said though, in this case, unless Apple was deceitful in its marketing or sales methods it is unlikely that unconscionability will enter into it.

I'm not advocating a boycott. I think, for many reasons, that it is a dumb idea. That doesn't make sense, as I was trying to say. To boycott a company for not releasing a product, only to buy the product when they release it? That isn't really a boycott is it? As for the policy reasons behind favoring or not favoring some sort of action on the part of the consumer, I would rather see people's energy be put into something worthwhile, not specs bumps on a computer. That being said...here we are aren't we? We could be doing better things with our time, but we aren't.

So, no, I don't think that Apple's behavior would be considered unconscionable. Pricing, product choice, product creation...these things aren't unconscionable behavior. Not in the least. Even their advertising, saying that the current GPU is "powerful, advanced" etc. doesn't cross any lines. That is, in the language of the law, "puffery."

I think that, with regard to Apple, we are on the same side. As for the law of contracts, we might still be in disagreement?
 
3D animation with high-poly, high-resolution textured models. Need fast, realtime, fully shaded and textured feedback for previsualization, and full-resolution rendering with either Global Illumination or Ambient Occlussion with raytracing.

So, I'm not just doing spreadsheets.

In that case, GPU is just as important as CPU, correct?

I would think you'd be more keen to do that sort of with on a Mac Pro rather than a laptop to begin with? A quick google tells me that folks are looking at dual quad core setups and rather hefty video cards. Neither of which is going to make it into any laptop line. I'm sure that there's some stuff you can do on a laptop, but you are talking a rather specialized need.

What are you currently running this on now?
 
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