Apple’s MacBook Pro: Rotting Core? What Apple Doesn't Want You To Realize.

[snberk103]

... Not to mention that whole built in battery thing kills me, for those who travel allot you know what im talking about.

...

My wife travels alot. Not once has she ever needed a 2nd battery (nor do any of my road-warrior friends.) She finds a seat in the lounge with a plug. I once offered to buy her a spare battery.... nope, she said. Getting through security is already a hassle, she doesn't need one more thing to bring out, show, have swabbed down.

And people who travel know that travelling light is the key... carrying another battery around is not travelling light.

There are 3rd party power packs that can be used for those very few who need to keep a notebook running for hours and days without being able to plug in.

 

[PeterQVenkman]

to paraphrase:

A beginning computer user worries about the brand.

A good user worries about the specs.

A great user worries about the experience.


That said, COME ON APPLE, DO A FREAKIN' SPEC UPDATE.

To add one - a power user worries about specs.

 

[solarein]

I've seen similar claims on this forum before, and any time someone has bothered to compare the specs, the cheaper system was not equivalent. Usually its the screen quality....

The Dell has VGA as video-out, not the digital video-out of the MBP. The Dell doesn't seem to optical audio (in or out) either.

When I "upgraded" the Dell to more or less match the features of the MBP it was .... $1695, compared to the $1699 for the MBP. I compared prices at the Dell store and the Apple store. Now, Dell has their system on sale - a good sale, it's nearly $500 off - so I went to the refurb section on the Apple store, the closest equivalent. I can get the MBP there for almost $300 off.

So, the grand total is that I can get the Dell for all of $200 off. Far Far Far from the "half as much". And for my personal situation useless as I need the digital video-out, not the obsolete VGA out. Which might explain the heavy discount, that Dell is probably about to be discontinued.

Here are the prices at my school:
Dell Latitude E6500:
- Black 15.4" UltraSharp Wide WXGA+ 1440x900 LED (Included)
- Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T9600 2.80GHz (Included)
- Windows® 7 Professional 32-bit (Included)
- 4GB, DDR2-800 SDRAM, 2 DIMMS (Included)
- Internal English Keyboard (Included)
- 250GB Hard Drive, 7200RPM w/Free Fall Sensor
- No Extended Battery Service Selected
- Intel® WiFi Link 5300 802.11a/g/n Draft Mini Card (Included)
- No Security Options Selected
- No Keep Your Hard Drive Selected
- 3 YR Basic Warranty & 3 YR NBD Onsite Service (Included)
- No External Monitor Selected
- No Speakers Selected
$839

MacBook Pro 15"
Precision aluminum unibody
2.66GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
4GB (two 2GB SO-DIMMs) of 1066MHz DDR3 SDRAM; supports up to 8GB
320GB Serial ATA; 5400 rpm
8x SuperDrive (DVD¦R DL/DVD¦RW/CD-RW)
NVIDIA GeForce 9600M GT graphics processor with 256MB of GDDR3 memory
15.4-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit glossy widescreen display, 1440-by-900 resolution
Built-in iSight camera; Mini DisplayPort output port with support for DVI, VGA, and dual-link DVI (requires adapters, sold separately)
One FireWire 800 port (up to 800 Mbps), two USB 2.0 ports (up to 480 Mbps), SD card slot
Built-in 10/100/1000BASE-T (Gigabit) Ethernet
Built-in AirPort Extreme Wi-Fi (based on IEEE 802.11n draft specification); built-in Bluetooth 2.1 + EDR (Enhanced Data Rate) module
Built-in stereo speakers, built-in omnidirectional microphone, combined optical digital input/analog line in, combined optical digital output/analog line out, MagSafe power port, Kensington lock slot
Built-in battery (73-watt-hour lithium-polymer, up to 7 hrs.), 85W MagSafe Power Adapter, AC wall plug, power cord
ENERGY STAR 5.0 Compliant, EPEAT Gold Rating
Includes Mac OS X Snow Leopard and iLife '09
Weight 5.5 lbs.
One-year warranty
$1749

Hardware-wise they are not identical but close enough for the point I was trying to make. This is not to suggest that they are equivalent or that I would prefer to get the Dell. There are good reasons to go for the MBP still (for me it's mostly OS X). The point I was trying to make was about hardware specs and price only.

 

[PeterQVenkman]

So, the grand total is that I can get the Dell for all of $200 off. Far Far Far from the "half as much". And for my personal situation useless as I need the digital video-out, not the obsolete VGA out. Which might explain the heavy discount, that Dell is probably about to be discontinued.

How has the mini display port worked out for you? I've never had to use one yet, but I can't get past all the problems I read about on forums and product review sites:

http://store.apple.com/us/product/MB571Z/A

Something in that port/adapter doesn't work right.

 

[MacintoshMan]

My wife travels alot. Not once has she ever needed a 2nd battery (nor do any of my road-warrior friends.) She finds a seat in the lounge with a plug. I once offered to buy her a spare battery.... nope, she said. Getting through security is already a hassle, she doesn't need one more thing to bring out, show, have swabbed down.

And people who travel know that travelling light is the key... carrying another battery around is not travelling light.

There are 3rd party power packs that can be used for those very few who need to keep a notebook running for hours and days without being able to plug in.

Ya thats just what I need, a nice third party battery to pick up where apple could have just allowed me to remove the battery and replace it with a new one. Your wife doesn't travel from LA to London pre-mixing live sets on the airplane in Logic 8, I really enjoyed having a second battery.

But I guess if you want to go into apple and let them gouge you for a battery replacement when yours only holds a 1 hour charge after two years, a built one will do just fine =]

 

[kasakka]

How has the mini display port worked out for you? I've never had to use one yet, but I can't get past all the problems I read about on forums and product review sites:

http://store.apple.com/us/product/MB571Z/A

Something in that port/adapter doesn't work right.

The dual link DVI adapter is the only one with problems and you only need that for displays that have a really high resolution like 2560x1440 or 2560x1600. Anything lower and the single link DVI adapter works perfectly fine. For those big displays, you can always get one that has Displayport input. That's what I did and use a mini-DP to Displayport cable and it has been 100% with my 30", 2560x1600 Dell 3008WFP and cost a lot less than the Dual Link DVI adapter.

I like the mini-Displayport. It is very small so it doesn't make the laptop thicker like VGA connectors on many laptops. It also supports those really high resolutions, unlike HDMI which is limited to lower resolutions since no displays use the 1.3/1.4 spec and same goes for laptops with HDMI connectors. The only drawback of the current mini-Displayport implementation is that it doesn't support audio, even though it is in Displayport specs. Hopefully the next MBP models will do that, then you can connect your TV or whatever with a simple mini-DP to HDMI connector.

At first I thought the adapter thing might be awkward, but the adapters are pretty small so it's not a huge issue to carry a VGA (for projectors) and single link DVI (for computer displays) adapter around.

 

[Frosties]

The Dell E6500 has a digital display port just not Apples mini display port.
Back side showing (modem);LAN, display port, power socket.

It also have a docking system for more digital display ports. The display port is no issue, updating the Macbook Pro is. Still waiting and not buying a Dell.

 

[flat five]

To add one - a power user worries about specs.

actually, i think a power user worries about whatever it is they're doing on the computer be-it design, number crunching, etc..

i dunno, i'd consider myself a power user (if it's what i think it is) and my main worry is design (specialized construction field)... a more computer related worry is mastering apps.. worrying about wether or not my computers can handle the workload is way(way) down on the list.

 

[cathyy]

Seems like I could just sell OS X to the people here for $2000 and they'd still buy it. After all, it's all about the OS.

 

[spork183]

Ya thats just what I need, a nice third party battery to pick up where apple could have just allowed me to remove the battery and replace it with a new one. Your wife doesn't travel from LA to London pre-mixing live sets on the airplane in Logic 8, I really enjoyed having a second battery.

But I guess if you want to go into apple and let them gouge you for a battery replacement when yours only holds a 1 hour charge after two years, a built one will do just fine =]

Save the cost of the battery, and you don't have to swap. Lighter too...

http://store.apple.com/us-k12/product/MB441Z/A?fnode=MTY1NDEwMQ&mco=MTMzODMzOTc

 

[flat five]

Seems like I could just sell OS X to the people here for $2000 and they'd still buy it. After all, it's all about the OS.

yeah, you definitely could..

buy osx and get a free computer..

it's a different marketing twist and probably isn't as effective as 'buy our computers and get a free OS' but i'd buy osx for 2g..

i have apps that cost close to that and there are apps out there that cost way more than that... in a side-by-side comparison, the operating systems are way more involved than any single app but they're being sold for dirt cheap or free..

 

[jmoore5196]

I read the original article to which the OP linked, and have one observation: The author of this missive seems obsessed with price. Paragraph after paragraph, we're confronted with the notion that Apple products are overpriced, the market tightly controlled, and that the "value" represented by PCs is lacking in anything designed by the folks in Cupertino.

I offer a simple solution:

If you think the price is too high, don't buy a MacBook Pro!

John Ruskin once said that anyone can make anything more cheaply and sell it for less, and that people who only pay attention to price are the imitator's lawful prey. Take the low-enders, Microsoft, and welcome!

Having been around a few years, I've learned that true happiness isn't getting what you want - it's wanting what you get. The article cited by the OP focuses on one thing: Apple's price tag. Argument aside, there's an easy fix: Buy something else. If you want something cheaper, there are legions of folks willing to provide just that.

 

[Hal Itosis]

The ONLY processor family that is suitable for an updated MacBook Pro is from the Arrandale family and those chips are just now beginning to ship from the major manufacturers. Just because a chip has a Core i7/i5/i3 name on it doesn't mean that it is suitable for use in a top-of-the-line, thin and light, battery-efficient design like the MacBook Pro. The "Core i" family of processors represents a range of different applications and the only one that "fits" is the Arrandale.

I was aware of the Clarks/Arran/dale distinction (thanks). You are correct inasmuch as major (like Sony and hp) notebooks are not in stores today, AFAIK... but some other brands appear to have been out for 2 months already:

• PC Perspective -- Jan. 3
  
  
• Tech Report -- Jan. 4
  
  
• CES 2010: Arrandale Arrives -- Jan. 8

[i guess that Asus K42F is just using Intel's GPU(?), so that's no big deal perhaps]

Anyway... please don't put in the position of defending (or having to defend) the PC perspective.

Mac OS X is my refuge.

 

[ouimetnick]

But, no matter how many times people keep saying the above ("Apple is falling behind"), it just isn't true. See my post on the previous page for the facts of the matter (and links to support my statements):

https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=9389290&#post9389290

The ONLY processor family that is suitable for an updated MacBook Pro is from the Arrandale family and those chips are just now beginning to ship from the major manufacturers. Just because a chip has a Core i7/i5/i3 name on it doesn't mean that it is suitable for use in a top-of-the-line, thin and light, battery-efficient design like the MacBook Pro. The "Core i" family of processors represents a range of different applications and the only one that "fits" is the Arrandale.

Here is more background on this issue (with additional links to support my statements):

https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=9380896&#post9380896

You see. If apple did something, besides screw costumers for out dated hardware, they would have the i series chips. Apple loves to have partners, it seems. They have Intel. They should have started in June 2009, working on bringing the tech to the Macintosh line up, so when Intel started mass producing the chips, the Macs would be a head of the PCs. but no. They put 4 year old tech, in or 2 years now, and charge 1K more than a pc with the similar specs

 

[Maczz]

Seems like I could just sell OS X to the people here for $2000 and they'd still buy it. After all, it's all about the OS.

True, i sold my 2007 macbook with 2.13Ghz,160gb 2gb memory for $850 back in novermber 2009. People care about osx not hardware.

 

[NewGenAdam]

to paraphrase:

A beginning computer user worries about the brand.

A good user worries about the specs.

A great user worries about the experience.


That said, COME ON APPLE, DO A FREAKIN' SPEC UPDATE.

And I'm certain we can argue that a great user acknowledges the importance of both brand and specs in dictating the experience.

So you, Apple, update the specs or I, the user, might update my brand.
I'm reluctant. But the Z is tempting.

 

[vant]

And I'm certain we can argue that a great user acknowledges the importance of both brand and specs in dictating the experience.

So you, Apple, update the specs or I, the user, might update my brand.
I'm reluctant. But the Z is tempting.

You should just get the Z.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Seems too many people are trying to turn Macs into a pc, when they should just buy a pc to begin with.

 

[NewGenAdam]

Seems too many people are trying to turn Macs into a pc, when they should just buy a pc to begin with.

If the nature of a PC you refer to is its better value for specs, then I agree, anyone clamouring for that in a Mac fights a losing battle.

But my protest against the present Mac lineup is not their poor value (which they admittedly possess), but rather the fact that the tech in them is, frankly, outdated.

I'm happy to be ripped off! Just not for old hardware.
We Apple sheep are very aware of technology's marching progress, and fear joining an army which is about to go ahead and leave us behind.

 

[vant]

If the nature of a PC you refer to is its better value for specs, then I agree, anyone clamouring for that in a Mac fights a losing battle.

But my protest against the present Mac lineup is not their poor value (which they admittedly possess), but rather the fact that the tech in them is, frankly, outdated.

I'm happy to be ripped off! Just not for old hardware.
We Apple sheep are very aware of technology's marching progress, and fear joining an army which is about to go ahead and leave us behind.

The new processors were released in January. Apple isn't going to update it's computers based on processor updates alone. They have other things to worry about such as design and other components. A computer doesn't revolve around a processor.

 

[ouimetnick]

And here we go again with the simple, naive comparisons between Macs and PC's based solely on their hardware.

Do the Dell Latitudes come with OS X?
Do they run Mac software?
Do they come with arguably the best support in the industry?
Are they well designed?

Didn't think so.

Apple fanboyism. I have owned 5 dell computers. 1 desktop, 4 laptops. I had to call in to support about Windows once. Yes, dell has poor support. But atleast I've NEVER had a HW issue with my computers. Hell Dell even applies thermal paste correctly unlike Apple. Is it well designed? thats an opinion. The Latitude E6400 doesn't look modern, but I like how its not flashy, and cheap looking. Are MacBook Pros well designed? Yes, but the ports are crap. Having them on one side is stupid. It looks funny. Also, the ethernet port on the MB is crap. One little drop, and the case then flexes. Also, Apple rips you off on repairs. they charge $300 for a new piece of Aluminum, then labor? I could do it my self. They charge $900 for a new logic board for the Unibody Aluminum MB, that costed $1300? thats a $400 difference. They rip you off. Also, they have so many issues with their iMacs. I've never seen a product have so many issues.Apple is milking to the bone here. Using 4 year old tech, and charging 3 times more than modern tech in PCs. I CARE ABOUT the hardware that I GET WHEN PAYING $1300 for a CrapBook.

Oh, and I run OSX on my Latitude D620.
I hate Apple's specs for their computers. I love the Software though.

 

[snberk103]

Here are the prices at my school:
Dell Latitude E6500:
- Black 15.4" UltraSharp Wide WXGA+ 1440x900 LED (Included)
- Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T9600 2.80GHz (Included)
- Windows® 7 Professional 32-bit (Included)
- 4GB, DDR2-800 SDRAM, 2 DIMMS (Included)
- Internal English Keyboard (Included)
- 250GB Hard Drive, 7200RPM w/Free Fall Sensor
- No Extended Battery Service Selected
- Intel® WiFi Link 5300 802.11a/g/n Draft Mini Card (Included)
- No Security Options Selected
- No Keep Your Hard Drive Selected
- 3 YR Basic Warranty & 3 YR NBD Onsite Service (Included)
- No External Monitor Selected
- No Speakers Selected
$839

MacBook Pro 15"
Precision aluminum unibody
2.66GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
4GB (two 2GB SO-DIMMs) of 1066MHz DDR3 SDRAM; supports up to 8GB
320GB Serial ATA; 5400 rpm
8x SuperDrive (DVD¦R DL/DVD¦RW/CD-RW)
NVIDIA GeForce 9600M GT graphics processor with 256MB of GDDR3 memory
15.4-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit glossy widescreen display, 1440-by-900 resolution
Built-in iSight camera; Mini DisplayPort output port with support for DVI, VGA, and dual-link DVI (requires adapters, sold separately)
One FireWire 800 port (up to 800 Mbps), two USB 2.0 ports (up to 480 Mbps), SD card slot
Built-in 10/100/1000BASE-T (Gigabit) Ethernet
Built-in AirPort Extreme Wi-Fi (based on IEEE 802.11n draft specification); built-in Bluetooth 2.1 + EDR (Enhanced Data Rate) module
Built-in stereo speakers, built-in omnidirectional microphone, combined optical digital input/analog line in, combined optical digital output/analog line out, MagSafe power port, Kensington lock slot
Built-in battery (73-watt-hour lithium-polymer, up to 7 hrs.), 85W MagSafe Power Adapter, AC wall plug, power cord
ENERGY STAR 5.0 Compliant, EPEAT Gold Rating
Includes Mac OS X Snow Leopard and iLife '09
Weight 5.5 lbs.
One-year warranty
$1749

Hardware-wise they are not identical but close enough for the point I was trying to make. This is not to suggest that they are equivalent or that I would prefer to get the Dell. There are good reasons to go for the MBP still (for me it's mostly OS X). The point I was trying to make was about hardware specs and price only.

A) 3rd party retailers can and do price items differently, and sometimes at a loss to clear inventory. That's why I went to the Dell and Apple stores. I could have gone to a 3rd party Apple retailer and received a better price on the MBP.

B) There are some significant differences in the two systems you have quoted. Bigger HD on the Mac (320 vs 250), backlit keyboard on the Mac, Gigabit ethernet on the Mac, digital video output port on the Mac, and optical audio in/out on the Mac. When I priced out the Dell in my comparison I had to optionally add a bunch of stuff to make it equivalent to the MBP.

To be fair the Dell has a faster (though smaller) HD, and there are more pixels on the screen. Usually the Dells use an inferior grade of monitor however, and the MBPs use a better grade. One way to tell the quality is move to side and see how far you can go before the colours shift. Macs tend to have better screens.

My point is not "Which is Better", however - the two systems are not functionally equivalent, and therefore price comparisons are not valid. And, 3rd party retailers may be discounting to clear stock. That's why I went to the manufacturer's stores.

 

[vant]

Apple fanboyism. I have owned 5 dell computers. 1 desktop, 4 laptops. I had to call in to support about Windows once. Yes, dell has poor support. But atleast I've NEVER had a HW issue with my computers. Hell Dell even applies thermal paste correctly unlike Apple. Is it well designed? thats an opinion. The Latitude E6400 doesn't look modern, but I like how its not flashy, and cheap looking. Are MacBook Pros well designed? Yes, but the ports are crap. Having them on one side is stupid. It looks funny. Also, the ethernet port on the MB is crap. One little drop, and the case then flexes. Also, Apple rips you off on repairs. they charge $300 for a new piece of Aluminum, then labor? I could do it my self. They charge $900 for a new logic board for the Unibody Aluminum MB, that costed $1300? thats a $400 difference. They rip you off. Also, they have so many issues with their iMacs. I've never seen a product have so many issues.Apple is milking to the bone here. Using 4 year old tech, and charging 3 times more than modern tech in PCs. I CARE ABOUT the hardware that I GET WHEN PAYING $1300 for a CrapBook.

Oh, and I run OSX on my Latitude D620.
I hate Apple's specs for their computers. I love the Software though.

Bringing up hardware failures is moot on an individual basis.

Apple has remedied the thermal paste years ago.

Replacement parts are expensive for Apple products.

Even though Apple had issues with the iMac, they offered generous compensation in regards to the issues.

The processors were introduced two months ago, Apple doesn't update based on processor roadmaps.

When you figure in a price of a laptop you have to remember that Apple does not take concessions for adding bloatware, they spend much more on R&D, and they clearly have the market for the price.

 

[snberk103]

Ya thats just what I need, a nice third party battery to pick up where apple could have just allowed me to remove the battery and replace it with a new one. Your wife doesn't travel from LA to London pre-mixing live sets on the airplane in Logic 8, I really enjoyed having a second battery.

But I guess if you want to go into apple and let them gouge you for a battery replacement when yours only holds a 1 hour charge after two years, a built one will do just fine =]

So what you are saying is that Apple should shorten the battery life for the 99% of their customers who can do with one battery, so appease the 1% who have a speciality need?

Uh Huh.... sure.....

If your battery wore out prematurely (as defined by cycles) then Apple will replace it for you. There are lots of posts on this site that confirm that. If you wore out by battery by using it a lot.... well its consumable. It wears out with use. You can get the cycle count from the "About this Mac".

 

[ouimetnick]

Bringing up hardware failures is moot on an individual basis.

Apple has remedied the thermal paste years ago.

Replacement parts are expensive for Apple products.

Even though Apple had issues with the iMac, they offered generous compensation in regards to the issues.

The processors were introduced two months ago, Apple doesn't update based on processor roadmaps.

When you figure in a price of a laptop you have to remember that Apple does not take concessions for adding bloatware, they spend much more on R&D, and they clearly have the market for the price.

They were quick when Intel shipped the Core 2 Duos. Also, i saw a teardown of the MBA done in 2009. It was a Revesion B. Terrible job of thermal paste. My brother's early 2008 MBP has the issue. I also saw a teardown on a unibody laptop from Apple with the thermal pate issue. It may have been fixed recently. I'm not allowed to take my brothers Unibody MB apart