chrisfromalbany
macrumors 6502
............
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13-Inch Retina MacBook Pro Once Again Shows Up in Benchmarks
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chrisfromalbany
macrumors 6502
Who said anything about un-usable, I own one and like it but there are issues. I not too big fanboy to tell others the truth. Get YOUR FACTs straight. Personally I don't care is power 15 27' HiFi TVs.. That's totally totally irrelevant.
Hardware.. wanted faster CPU and more importantly on-board GPU.
anandtech said:
Not sure how much more blatant they put it
anandtech said:
Hardware is over taxed
anandtech said:
They aren't saying there pushing the limations of the software or the software over time will resolve the issue.. because.. because.. it WONT.. i don't want lie people have believe it will..
And surprise the resolving.. hmm.. let me guess.. maybe hmmmm.. HARDWAREanandtech said:
anandtech said:
Again you don't own a rMBP and nor do you have extensive experience with it and I do.. and GT 650M is called quite a bit..
Even with 13' inch rMBP having less pixels they need a external video card and that was my point. THEY WILL NOT RELEASE A rMBP w/o GT 650 unless they wait until next year with haswell CPU with better onboard GPU. Why because the current 15' rMBP is slightly unpowered. That was the point I was trying to make all along. But people like yourself and others can't stand any criticism of the current 15' rMBP and have give people false hope that software update will resolve hardware limitations. Come 6 to 12 months from now we see who's right.
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chrisfromalbany
macrumors 6502
That being said I never buy a non-retina 15' like you are thinking about. At that price point I buy rMBP. Then get external drive or cloud for extra storage.
KnightWRX
macrumors Pentium
That's Anand's interpretation of it. Of course, Anand doesn't have the first clue about GPU pipelines, how they work and how fed data can be optimized at a software level to get extra performance out of the hardware or how it can be left unoptimized and plainly "tax" the hardware for nothing.
For raw pixel count, the hardware has been capable of Retina like fill-rates for close to a decade. Apple could be using multi-pass rendering (ie, rendering all the CALayers fully with no hidden surface removal), instead of using opaque on the front most layer to hide pixels beneath it. They could be blending at every pass too (each Layer getting blended with the previous ones independantly, regardless if the eventual pixels its blending will get hidden away by an upper layer).
There are many ways to optimize GPU pipelines. It's quite evident also that Apple's OpenGL drivers are lacking. Just running in Bootcamp, you can easily see this as the hardware performs better on Windows using the Windows drivers.
But again, I don't expect Anand to delve deeper than "it's slow, must be hardware! These synthetic benchmarks I ran and have no understanding of show it". That's what he is, just a guy like you or me that gets free hardware, runs a bunch of tests and writes a blog. Don't put too much faith in his analysis.
Yebubbleman
macrumors 603
THANK YOU!
Generalization much? If we're talking fanboy, I'm not the one that went out and bought a retina 15" MacBook Pro; I will be buying a 15" MacBook Pro in the very near future and it won't be retina. I'm not trying to speak in defense of Apple; I don't need you to agree with or understand what I like about their products, and really, if we're going to be honest here, I only really give a rat's ass about three of them anyway.
Man, get YOUR facts straight!
Fact 1: The problems that article is reporting on is the taxation of GPU resources.
Fact 2: All the GPU is having to do is push more pixels (2880x1800), pixels per inch is irrelevant to the GPU.
Fact 3: That GPU (both of them, actually) are capable of driving, on their own, two 27" Apple Thunderbolt displays each carrying 2560x1440, without having the problems that you have on your rMBP.
Fact 4: (2560x1440) x 2 + (1680x1050) > (2880x1800). Yes, I'm taking a high-end non-retina 15" MacBook Pro's native resolution and adding the resolutions of two thunderbolt displays. Compared to a lone rMBP, the former is able to push 2 million more pixels without breaking a sweat.
Fact 5: Anandtech, in a review of the 2012 non-retina MacBook Pros (published AFTER the article that you're citing here as gospel), would indicate that my needs are better served by a Retina MacBook Pro than a non-retina MacBook Pro (regardless of what those needs actually are). And yes, I read that same article. They cite speculation, whereas the facts I have presented here are exactly that...facts. Refute them while citing that article all you want.
I don't think you have a solid idea of how the hardware is supposed to work. Both GPUs can support the output of well over 7 million pixels compared to the 5 million on that retina display. The problem is very clearly related to OS X's handling of the HiDPI graphics. That is the only logical explanation, I'm sorry.
So every article I've read on the thing would lead me to believe. That doesn't mean that the integrated graphics card shouldn't be capable of handing that high of a pixel count output. Again, I'm not saying that your problems don't exist. I'm saying that your problems are not caused by what you think they are. You know that there's a difference between those, right?
I see the point you were trying to make all along and I've seen it all along, but that doesn't mean that I agree with it and you citing an article like it's the third testament of the bible doesn't really do much to help there either. If the Intel HD 4000 can pump out over 7 million pixels, and if the retina 15" rMBP has only around 5 million, AND if the would-be 13" rMBP has a smaller pixel count, then there's no reason why it isn't possible today. Will they likely wait until Haswell? It's very possible. Is this necessarily the reason? Nothing you or that article has to say would leave me to believe that it is.
Man, how much you love to presume things you clearly have no knowledge of. I actually am usually the one dishing out the criticism of the retina MacBook Pro. I absolutely hate its design. You can't open the machine up without voiding the warranty; you can't replace the battery (or trackpad) without replacing the whole top-case/unibody/frame; no built-in optical drive; no common-form-factor boot drives; proprietary five-pointed screws; and a display that makes the 2% of Mac apps out there look fantastic while making the other 98% (as well as non-vectorized web-content) look like crap. Gee, I must really love this computer. Again, given the above (plus the cheaper price-points), I'm going to buy a maxed out 15" non-retina MacBook Pro. Before you say such stupid things about my supposed love of the retina machine, please consider who you're talking to.
Right because on a laptop, a machine designed to be an all-in-one on the go, I totally want to be tethered to additional external drives! Also cloud storage is expensive and completely non-viable once you start dealing with storage in the three-digit gigabyte range unless you're the one hosting it, and at that point, why spend all of that money? Just so I don't have to have a laptop with a hard drive? Get real, man.
chrisfromalbany
macrumors 6502
In reality, Apple releases a rMBP with better hardware next year and issues go away end of story. That all I care about, reality, not what could Apple do software wise fix this because this isn't coming. If YOU had a fix for the issues w/software update I be interested in hearing it, even pay for it. Otherwise your conjecture that you know better then Apple software engineers(worked on this project for years) or Anandtech on how resolve this problem, I'm not buying.
And if you really want argue about what causing slow downs with UI go to in 10+ page rMBP issue with video performance thread. Orginally my point was related to the topic which was that wont release a 13' rMBP w/o discrete video card.. Which we seem to agree on. I only noted the issues with 15' rMBP because it only get exasperated w/o discrete video card even if only on a 13' screen. Regardless if it is a unresolved software or hardware issue.
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1386070/
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KnightWRX
macrumors Pentium
So you like companies just using "brute force" solutions rather than proper optimization ?
Ok.
chrisfromalbany
macrumors 6502
Nothing to do with what I like or don't like.. I care about how it actually plays out.. I personally don't like many of Apple tactics. I liked the OS on MBP better then I like Windows 8 on laptop. I willing to pay the higher prices because IMO the UI is that much better.
I got the rMBP because I going to get a MBP when upgrading from a MBA and didn't make sense with price point not to get rMBP. And coming from a MBA seemed like a more nature upgrade. And I wish there was a software that would resolve the issues with UI slowness, but alas I don't think there will be.
Yebubbleman
macrumors 603
I'm telling you, with scientifically proven facts, that the GPUs (yes, both of them) in the rMBP and the non-retina 15" MBP are both capable of pushing 1680x1050 IN ADDITION TO 2560x1440 on two different Thunderbolt displays at once. If you do the math, that's over 2 million more pixels being pushed than on an rMBP using only its internal display. The GPU doesn't care about pixel density; it only cares about how many pixels it is driving. Again, as evidence, I'll point to a non-retina 15" MacBook Pro (let alone a 2012 non-retina 13" MacBook Pro) being able to drive its own internal display in addition to two external 2560x1440 displays and not breaking the kind of sweat you and Anandtech are reporting about. That being said, the only thing different in the equation of the lone rMBP is the software.
Apple software engineers have NOT been working on this for YEARS. If they have, I'd like to see proof of it. There has only been signs of work on HiDPI support in OS X in the last year, if that long. Since 10.7.3, if memory serves. Also, no I'm not in agreement that Apple won't release a 13" rMBP without a discrete GPU. They will absolutely release that machine without a discrete GPU BECAUSE IT DOESN'T NEED IT NOR DOES IT HAVE THE ROOM FOR IT! The problems your machine is having right now has got to be software simply because the hardware is only pushing pixels, and mind you, a fewer amount of pixels than the supported maximum of the same hardware running on different Macs (namely the non-retina MacBook Pros).
Before replying to this with nonsense about how I haven't read your threads or or the Anandtech article (neither of which are true) or about how I'm an overzealous inexperienced Apple fanboy, I entreat you to actually disprove, with facts and logic of your own, what I've stated here.
The standard MBP doesn't make sense when compared to the rMBP if AND ONLY IF you only want SSDs and built-in Ethernet, FireWire, and an Optical drive have no importance to you whatsoever...otherwise, it's a stupid buy as only 2% of the Mac software out there even takes advantage of that screen to begin with. The rest of the software out there looks like crap and will continue to do so until updated. Also, with the problems that you are now complaining about, it's obvious that this is the worst Mac I could buy for my money next to a current generation iMac.
chrisfromalbany
macrumors 6502
I re-posted your argument in rMBP video issues thread because seemed a better fit there. 
As serious as your entire post is, and I respect what you write, this sentence just ruined my view of your objectiveness. Please consider using another word than "crap" (my father AND mother was not able to see the difference of HiDPI apps vs LowDPI apps) for something that is not "crap". It is just not that good because of the scaling.
Yebubbleman
macrumors 603
I re-posted your argument in rMBP video issues thread because seemed a better fit there.
Oh goody. Since you don't know at all what you're talking about, but are firmly in belief that I'm still wrong anyway, you've sent along my heretic comments so that others can shoot them down for you? How mature of you.
I'm sorry, but my usage of the word "crap" ISN'T objective, nor is it supposed to be. I use that word from my own personal experience toying on the retina MacBook Pro. I wear glasses and when using them, have perfect vision. That's what I pay my optometrist for. If I think it's "crap" who the hell are you to tell me that my opinions are invalid? And no **** sherlock it's not that good because of the scaling. That's the point of my entire argument. Why don't you do us both a favor and do a better job of analyzing what people write BEFORE reacting to it.
chrisfromalbany
macrumors 6502
No called be off topic and wrong.. why I moved it.. I continue to argue if you bring something new.
Your so good at predicting that you thought last year that new slimmer Macbook Pro wouldn't come with a SSD and needed keep optical drive. And you beat like a dead horse over and over again
Then if people don't agree you tend to insult them, like posting you did above. Yea I'll pass.
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Mr. Retrofire
macrumors 603
The non-retina models are sufficient for college.Well damn, I just bought one for college
Not so much the resolution but the damn freaking IPS screen instead of the usual TN crap ; that is what every one wants (I mean at least what every photographer wants). 13 + retina should be pretty nice to get a clear view on fine details in post-processing (photoshop, lightroom...).
Tried the MBA 13" last year, gave it back the screen was so sheetty. Maybe Apple will AT LAST bring out the computer I need. (Up to now I was looking at the asus zenbook UX32VD with its fullhd 13" ips screen, but it has several flaws i cannot bare)
the current 15" rMBP is just TOO DAMN ENORMOUS to carry around (/expensive)
rkdiddy
macrumors 65816
After owning and returning both a rMBP and a 13" Air, I believe a 13" rMBP would be the sweet spot for me. You would maintain the portability of the 13" Air, but get the beautiful display of the rMBP.
The fact that Apple started with an empty slate with the rMBP, tells me it's possible that the 13" could have a discrete GPU. Here's to hoping.
The fact that Apple started with an empty slate with the rMBP, tells me it's possible that the 13" could have a discrete GPU. Here's to hoping.
Techno Pirate
macrumors newbie
Not This Year
The odds of an update to the 13in. MBP family in October, A.K.A. Less Than Four Months after the latest update is unrealistic. Most updates to Apple's many product lines occur every 8-12 months.
The odds of an update to the 13in. MBP family in October, A.K.A. Less Than Four Months after the latest update is unrealistic. Most updates to Apple's many product lines occur every 8-12 months.
yanksrock100
macrumors 6502a
I agree, but it wouldn't be an update to the current product. It would be in addition to the existing line, not replacing or upgrading the specs of the cMBP, because it's a different product.
Yebubbleman
macrumors 603
After owning and returning both a rMBP and a 13" Air, I believe a 13" rMBP would be the sweet spot for me. You would maintain the portability of the 13" Air, but get the beautiful display of the rMBP.
The fact that Apple started with an empty slate with the rMBP, tells me it's possible that the 13" could have a discrete GPU. Here's to hoping.
I wouldn't hold my breath much if I were you. The GPU that they'd put in there, even if they did do that, would be pretty weaksauce
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Apple has done that before, the iMac G5 iSight model sticks out in my memory. Introduced October 2005; replaced by the Early 2006 (Core Duo) iMac in January 2006. Mind you, that was during a major transition, though one could argue that this is one such transition. They could easily do that here. It is obvious, even based on Apple's public statements and online marketing that the cMBP design is on its way out and the rMBP design is what all MacBook Pros for the next few years will look like. It only makes sense that the 13" model would follow sooner rather than later.
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Well no, when the 13" rMBP comes out, odds are that it will replace the 13" cMBP when it does so. The only audience that wouldn't outright welcome this change would be the college crowd who still likes playing their movie collection on DVD.
Please realize that college students are one of the largest consumers of Apple products, so that could actually be a pretty big dip for Apple.
Yebubbleman
macrumors 603
Honestly, I think that today most of them will pick the 13" Pro over the 13" Air for the optical drive, but if that choice was removed, they wouldn't stop wanting the 13" Pro anyway. Most would either get an external drive or get a TV with a DVD player and it'll be no problem. Most would rather the $79 external drive than a switch back to Windows, especially when Apple practically positions the USB SuperDrive next to just about every ODD-less laptop they sell.
Most college students get the 13" MBP because it's the cheapest, non-refurbished laptop Apple currently sells. Unless you're an engineering or graphic design student, a 13" MBP will be more than enough.