chrisfromalbany
macrumors 6502
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I have read the article you are referring to. It says that the retina MacBook Pro is pushing the limits with its current hardware AND software configuraion. They say nothing about it being un-usable and they say nothing about it being a GPU limitation. Given that non-retina 15" and 17" Thunderbolt-equipped MacBook Pros can drive two 27" Thunderbolt displays (which themselves aren't that much less resolution than the native resolution of the 15" rMBP's display) at once in addition to its own internal display, I fail to see how the 15" rMBP could be pushing the limits of hardware. It's not like a 15" non-retina MacBook Pro with two 27" Thunderbolt displays hooked to it is pushing less pixels total than a 15" retina MacBook Pro with nothing hooked up to it. If anything, it ought to be pushing more. Put that in the pipe that you and Anandtech are sharing and smoke that.
anandtech said:Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge were both good steps for Intel, but Haswell and Broadwell are the designs that Apple truly wanted.
anandtech said:To be quite honest, the hardware in the rMBP isn’t enough to deliver a consistently smooth experience across all applications.
anandtech said:At the higher scaled resolutions, since the GPU has to render as much as 9.2MP, even UI performance can be sluggish.
And surprise the resolving.. hmm.. let me guess.. maybe hmmmm.. HARDWAREanandtech said:Apple is pushing the limits of the hardware we have available today..
anandtech said:Future iterations of the Retina Display MacBook Pro will have faster hardware with embedded DRAM that will help mitigate this problem
It's called "Rev. A syndrome". It's a condition where the first of a new design of Macs is always more flawwed, troubled, or unpolished than the updates to come thereafter in the same design. It happened with the first aluminum PowerBook G4s, the first MacBook Pros after the switch to Intel, the first Unibody MacBook Pros, and now with the first retina-enabled ultra-thin design of MacBook Pros. I'm not surprised that there are problems and you shouldn't be either.
The 15" rMBP is designed to run on the HD 4000 graphics in battery saving mode. Whether it does this successfully or not is another matter. The 13" would-be rMBP will NOT carry the same resolution as the 15" and thusly will be pushing fewer pixels and will not need to be powered by as beefy of a hardware.
Hahaha...fair point; though that's not the non-retina 15" MBPs maximum. You can configure it with a higher resolution. But that being said, it's obvious that the current design of MacBook Airs and the non-retina unibody design of MacBook Pros weren't meant to co-exist for too long.
Hardware is over taxed
That's Anand's interpretation of it. Of course, Anand doesn't have the first clue about GPU pipelines, how they work and how fed data can be optimized at a software level to get extra performance out of the hardware or how it can be left unoptimized and plainly "tax" the hardware for nothing.
For raw pixel count, the hardware has been capable of Retina like fill-rates for close to a decade. Apple could be using multi-pass rendering (ie, rendering all the CALayers fully with no hidden surface removal), instead of using opaque on the front most layer to hide pixels beneath it. They could be blending at every pass too (each Layer getting blended with the previous ones independantly, regardless if the eventual pixels its blending will get hidden away by an upper layer).
There are many ways to optimize GPU pipelines. It's quite evident also that Apple's OpenGL drivers are lacking. Just running in Bootcamp, you can easily see this as the hardware performs better on Windows using the Windows drivers.
But again, I don't expect Anand to delve deeper than "it's slow, must be hardware! These synthetic benchmarks I ran and have no understanding of show it". That's what he is, just a guy like you or me that gets free hardware, runs a bunch of tests and writes a blog. Don't put too much faith in his analysis.
Who said anything about un-usable, I own one and like it but there are issues. I not too big fanboy to tell others the truth.
Get YOUR FACTs straight. Personally I don't care is power 15 27' HiFi TVs.. That's totally totally irrelevant.
Hardware.. wanted faster CPU and more importantly on-board GPU.
Not sure how much more blatant they put it
Hardware is over taxed
They aren't saying there pushing the limations of the software or the software over time will resolve the issue.. because.. because.. it WONT.. i don't want lie people have believe it will..
And surprise the resolving.. hmm.. let me guess.. maybe hmmmm.. HARDWARE
Again you don't own a rMBP and nor do you have extensive experience with it and I do.. and GT 650M is called quite a bit..
Even with 13' inch rMBP having less pixels they need a external video card and that was my point. THEY WILL NOT RELEASE A rMBP w/o GT 650 unless they wait until next year with haswell CPU with better onboard GPU. Why because the current 15' rMBP is slightly unpowered. That was the point I was trying to make all along.
But people like yourself and others can't stand any criticism of the current 15' rMBP and have give people false hope that software update will resolve hardware limitations. Come 6 to 12 months from now we see who's right.
That being said I never buy a non-retina 15' like you are thinking about. At that price point I buy rMBP. Then get external drive or cloud for extra storage.
In reality, Apple releases a rMBP with better hardware next year and issues go away end of story. That all I care about, reality, not what could Apple do software wise fix this because this isn't coming. If YOU had a fix for the issues w/software update I be interested in hearing it, even pay for it. Otherwise your conjecture that you know better then Apple software engineers(worked on this project for years) or Anandtech on how resolve this problem, I'm not buying.THANK YOU!
In reality, Apple releases a rMBP with better hardware next year and issues go away end of story. That all I care about, reality, not what could Apple do software wise fix this because this isn't coming.
So you like companies just using "brute force" solutions rather than proper optimization ?
Ok.
In reality, Apple releases a rMBP with better hardware next year and issues go away end of story. That all I care about, reality, not what could Apple do software wise fix this because this isn't coming. If YOU had a fix for the issues w/software update I be interested in hearing it, even pay for it. Otherwise your conjecture that you know better then Apple software engineers(worked on this project for years) or Anandtech on how resolve this problem, I'm not buying.
And if you really want argue about what causing slow downs with UI go to in 10+ page rMBP issue with video performance thread. Orginally my point was related to the topic which was that wont release a 13' rMBP w/o discrete video card.. Which we seem to agree on. I only noted the issues with 15' rMBP because it only get exasperated w/o discrete video card even if only on a 13' screen. Regardless if it is a unresolved software or hardware issue.
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1386070/
I got the rMBP because I going to get a MBP when upgrading from a MBA and didn't make sense with price point not to get rMBP. And coming from a MBA seemed like a more nature upgrade. And I wish there was a software that would resolve the issues with UI slowness, but alas I don't think there will be.
The rest of the software out there looks like crap and will continue to do so until updated.
I re-posted your argument in rMBP video issues thread because seemed a better fit there.![]()
As serious as your entire post is, and I respect what you write, this sentence just ruined my view of your objectiveness. Please consider using another word than "crap" (my father AND mother was not able to see the difference of HiDPI apps vs LowDPI apps) for something that is not "crap". It is just not that good because of the scaling.
Oh goody. Since you don't know at all what you're talking about, but are firmly in belief that I'm still wrong anyway, you've sent along my heretic comments so that others can shoot them down for you? How mature of you.
The non-retina models are sufficient for college.Well damn, I just bought one for college![]()
Not so much the resolution but the damn freaking IPS screen instead of the usual TN crap ; that is what every one wants (I mean at least what every photographer wants). 13 + retina should be pretty nice to get a clear view on fine details in post-processing (photoshop, lightroom...).Having seen a current gen Macbook Pro 13, the screen is really nice. I am not convinced the super hi-resolution laptops are truly worth the extra cost for most people.
The odds of an update to the 13in. MBP family in October, A.K.A. Less Than Four Months after the latest update is unrealistic. Most updates to Apple's many product lines occur every 8-12 months.
After owning and returning both a rMBP and a 13" Air, I believe a 13" rMBP would be the sweet spot for me. You would maintain the portability of the 13" Air, but get the beautiful display of the rMBP.
The fact that Apple started with an empty slate with the rMBP, tells me it's possible that the 13" could have a discrete GPU. Here's to hoping.![]()
The odds of an update to the 13in. MBP family in October, A.K.A. Less Than Four Months after the latest update is unrealistic. Most updates to Apple's many product lines occur every 8-12 months.
I agree, but it wouldn't be an update to the current product. It would be in addition to the existing line, not replacing or upgrading the specs of the cMBP, because it's a different product.
Please realize that college students are one of the largest consumers of Apple products, so that could actually be a pretty big dip for Apple.The only audience that wouldn't outright welcome this change would be the college crowd who still likes playing their movie collection on DVD.
Please realize that college students are one of the largest consumers of Apple products, so that could actually be a pretty big dip for Apple.
Most college students get the 13" MBP because it's the cheapest, non-refurbished laptop Apple currently sells. Unless you're an engineering or graphic design student, a 13" MBP will be more than enough.Honestly, I think that today most of them will pick the 13" Pro over the 13" Air for the optical drive, but if that choice was removed, they wouldn't stop wanting the 13" Pro anyway. Most would either get an external drive or get a TV with a DVD player and it'll be no problem. Most would rather the $79 external drive than a switch back to Windows, especially when Apple practically positions the USB SuperDrive next to just about every ODD-less laptop they sell.