15-Inch MacBook Pro With Touch Bar Has Non-Removable SSD

[deany]

Anything that sticks up above the logic board increases its thickness. An M.2 connector on the logic board would do this. Not by much, but Ive is obsessed by making things thinner.

Sorry but surely they could have fitted a removable SSD in the rMBP 2016? is their not room above the battery?

 

[tubeexperience]

Yeah, I guess if your sales volume is high enough, saving the cost of the connector on every laptop sold is substantial. Be interesting if it saves more than the cost of replacing logic boards for failed storage.

If Apple wants to save nickels and dimes, it could have used standard M.2 SSDs which are dime a dozen.

This is all about making sure that users cannot upgrade the SSDs.
[doublepost=1479389371][/doublepost]

Anything that sticks up above the logic board increases its thickness. An M.2 connector on the logic board would do this. Not by much, but Ive is obsessed by making things thinner.

Not even that.

SSD can be made to point away from the logic board instead of being on top of the logic board.

 

[LordVic]

So you've not been using MacBook's for a good few years then?

Yes. Any Mac's have been phased out (though, don't know why we allowed them in the first place, since our application/platform has no OSx Support)

but once these soldered versions came in, can't get approved a laptop for BYOD that doesn't have it. The last MacBook Pro in use by one of our UI guys is an older one with removable hard drive.

 

[Workerbee Redux]

Be interesting if it saves more than the cost of replacing logic boards for failed storage.

Outside of AppleCare, the costs of replacing logic boards are shouldered by the consumer and contribute to Apple's profit.
[doublepost=1479395356][/doublepost]

Anything that sticks up above the logic board increases its thickness. An M.2 connector on the logic board would do this.

No, components could be rearranged to allow for an m.2 connector. Everything that's thicker than maybe 10mm would be problem, but a connector is only a couple of mm.

 

[fat jez]

Outside of AppleCare, the costs of replacing logic boards are shouldered by the consumer and contribute to Apple's profit.
[doublepost=1479395356][/doublepost]
No, components could be rearranged to allow for an m.2 connector. Everything that's thicker than maybe 10mm would be problem, but a connector is only a couple of mm.

The standard allows for a connector height of 3.2mm. I guess a bespoke single sided module could allow a shorter connector but it's still going to stand proud of the logic board. I'm guessing at Apple's reasons as I can't think of a good one other than the thickness (thinness?) obsession.

Please don't think I am defending Apple, I want my next MBP to have upgradeable RAM and storage. Never going to happen though.

 

[dannys1]

When @dannys1 says "I won't lose data because I backup properly" I guess he means TM. What about the 60 mins of data between last backup on TM?

And the faff of restoring a backup when machine is returned from repair for logic board failure with data that is one hour out of date, and may be corrupt anyway if Time Machine. https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7621000?start=0&tstart=0 ?

All files I work on are in Dropbox - which is Lan synced to 4 other computers in my network at home - i'm backed-up to the eyeballs.

I'm not saying there are NO downsides to a soldered in device, i'm just saying, like everything in this forum, it's not work the hoo har and the apocalyptic reaction it generates and I can guarantee that it just won't affect me in the slights and literally no part of me is bothered by this "revelation"
[doublepost=1479398298][/doublepost]

Not even slightly I'm afraid. Apple claims the read speeds top out at around 2GB/s, 2000MB/s and write speeds at 1.25GB/s, 1250MB/s, which is a significant amount below the new Samsung 960 PRO or even the 950 PRO, the latter rating at 2500MB/s read and 1500MB/s write alone; not accounting for other M.2 SSDs out there, all of which can be connected through PCIE slots and have a laptop form factor.

Incorrect Apple actually claims 3100 MB/s - it doesn't achieve that, but I think you'll find it IS a modified Samsung 960 Pro - Apple has always used the latest Samsung SSD tech in all their MacBook's every year - it's just people are too busy whining about Intel model names to talk about it.

 

[loon3y]

I've been there and done that with trying to demo software on a stack built on a laptop and it's painful whatever the laptop is. What we do now is use powerful Hyper-V hosts in the office with SSDs and loads of memory and have multiple test and demo systems configured. We then connect remotely to these systems as and when required: Doing this means I don't need anything more powerful than a MacBook for 90% of my visits to clients

We don't have an NYC office anymore, so its a bit difficult.

 

[melendezest]

I won't lose data because I backup properly - and it doesn't take "oodles of time" it takes literally minutes to restore from a well kept bootable backup.

Whatever, man. It does not take "minutes" to restore 1.75 TB of data. It takes hours. Backing up "properly" will not mitigate that issue. Time is the most expensive thing there is.

As I said, you should be worrying less about if your SSD on the logic board will fail and you can't get data back and more about what happens if you drop and destroy the computer, poor liquid over it, have it burn in a house fire, get it stolen - all of those would also cause your data to be unrecoverable from the device. There's no excuse to backup and saying "usually if the computer failed Apple would give it me back with my data on" is ridiculous.

What is ridiculous here is you defending this clearly inferior setup. Are you really saying this is better than not having the SSD soldered in?? You are blowing off that Apple made sure that your latest data is not recoverable in the event of even the simplest hardware failure. But even if I have a mirrored drive hooked on 100% of the time, I can't just swap it in, I have to restore.

But if you can live with that, go right ahead.

I don't like Apple that much to put up with this unnecessary BS.

 

[Brian Y]

Since you seem to be well informed about Apple repairs, if my 2016 ssd were to fail 15 months later, would I responsible for the +$1000 to replace the logic board or would Apple only charge me $310 to fix IT? considering that Applecare is pretty steep on the rmbp 15, I'm trying to see of it would be worth it to purchase. I've never paid to for Applecare in my almost 10 years of purchasing mac books since I made the switch and I've come ahead in over $1000+ savings as I can do most of my own repair. I've previously replaced hdds/ssds, daughter boards in my previous laptops without breaking a sweat. if I get the new rmbp15, there's really nothing I can do other than send it in to Apple for repair....

I see no reason why it wouldn't qualify for a depot repair @ flat rate.

As for whether they will charge SSD-prices for an SSD failure, I have no idea. They do this for other things - for example, only charging for the battery for changing batteries on newer MBPs which actually involves changing the whole top case and trackpad too.

From experience, barring the Toshiba ones in some MBAs from a few years ago (there was a REP for them), the SSDs Apple use tend to be very reliable. In the 2012-15 range by far the worse component in terms of failure rate is the GPU. That said, all models tend to have some issues, hopefully this isn't the year of the SSD becoming the problem-part!

As for the data-loss argument above, 2 points:

1. When you take/send a device in for repair, you sign a document saying that Apple aren't responsible for data.

2. If you don't have a backup of your data, that's your own fault. Whether it's a low consumer-grade TLC SSD or one of the best enterprise drives out there - drives fail. Sometimes slowly, sometimes unexpectedly. There is absolutely no excuse to not have an up-to-date backup these days.
[doublepost=1479401890][/doublepost]

Whatever, man. It does not take "minutes" to restore 1.75 TB of data. It takes hours. Backing up "properly" will not mitigate that issue. Time is the most expensive thing there is.

Actually, you're wrong here. If I lose my computer, or the SSD dies, I can be back up and running on a different machine within minutes. My entire boot drive is backed up via Time Machine. I also keep a netboot image of my machines which automatically re-creates every 7 days (I just cron it to run overnight on Sunday evenings). If I need to, I can have any Mac up and running with my config, my settings and my files within minutes.

If time is your most valuable asset, then you should set aside some of that time to come up with a good backup plan.

In addition to the netboot image, I have:

- Machine backed up via Time Machine to home server
- Home server stores data on a Raid 5 array (not the most secure, but suits my needs)
- Home server is on a UPS, so a power failure is unlikely to cause damage to files
- Critical (only) data on the home server is backed up to an external disk automatically every week (and is automatically unmounted in case I'm hit by ransomware).
- As well as backing up to an external disk, what I call "mission critical" data is uploaded (encrypted, obviously) to a cloud backup service.

Therefore *touch wood* the chances of me losing critical data are slim. It's really not difficult, if you're confident with shell scripting, you can implement a good backup strategy on a Saturday afternoon, which is fully automated.

 

[Ploki]

I'm quite sure a SSD is going to be used much more heavily on a rMBP than on an ipad/iPhone. I'll routinely move 100-200gb of video/RAW files from SD/CF cards to my MacBook SSD and then to external storage later. You'll be waiting a long time moving that much info into your USB 2.0 equipped iPhone 7

Yes, but take a look at some SSD stress tests (+ the fact that supposedly most SSDs just lock, meaning, they don't become unreadable you just cant write to them)

If the rMBP is fine for your needs then that is good, it is a lovely machine and like mine had several years still in it. I got 16GB ram and 256GB SSD in mine. I didn't need the 16GB in the first few years but needed it now, wasted money in my opinion. The SSD on the other hand is full and I was living a life of hell trying to free up space, I was going to replace the SSD but the machine is no longer working and I replaced it with a DELL XPS on Monday.

As for my discussion being pointless, that is kind of you. It isn't pointless to me and not to swathes of others. The complainers on here are way louder for this release than any other. Even more so that when the RAM was soldered.
As it happens, Apple could easily have put replaceable ram in the 2012 rMBP, there is space for it, I checked.

Its not just about having to spend the money to max out a machine but the repair costs. Components that used to cost $150 to replace yourself, now cost $1000 to replace the whole motherboard.

It is a rare thing for me to not have to take an Apple product back to the store, so I don't think Apples quality control is up to scratch, yes their service is excellent and they replace things but wait until a machine is 5 years old and you are **** out of luck.

I recently took my old laptop in to get a battery replaced and Apple showed me the door (told me to try a third partly repairer or unofficially to try online and do it myself).

Could you imagine the outcry when Apple finally make a car, well I guess they are not going to do that because they have been told that if they weld the wheels on and weld the engine in then no one one will buy it.

I didn't mean its pointless because it makes no sense, it's pointless because it makes no difference because we had these discussion when
- air was introduced
- first gen retina was introduced
and voted with money twice (and will vote with money now the third time)
forum complains don't mean squat to apple, quarterly reports do.
And complainers aren't one bit louder then they were when rMBP 2012 came out! I remember, i was here, i was contemplating whether to buy previous gen, or retina, because of exact same concerns.

What they did do, they did optimize RAM latency to an absurd degree, impossible with non-soldered RAM! (You can say that's not pro or is pro, depends)
And with later gen retinas, at least proprietary connector was PCIe (When no laptop in existence yet supported PCie SSDs.)

But yes. I do see your point. I really do, and I agree with it to a certain degree.

I think that today "Pro" is mostly costumer support. It used to be "its super accessible to fix yourself" to avoid any downtime, but today, i think pro is mostly service. Whether you (or I) like that is beside the point. We vote with our money not with our opinions on forums.

 

[gavroche]

One would think a professional computer would meet the requirements of a professional IT or Developer.

Desktop, yes. Portable laptop... well... if they included everything that every person on this site demands that it should have, you would need a wheelbarrow to haul it around.

 

[DevNull0]

Why didn't you buy a MBP with the specs you needed? You ended up paying $800 for SSD alone and still didn't have the use for the full lifespan. That sounds expensive. ;-)

I did buy an MBP with the specs I needed in 2011 (after adding the 120 gig SSD and 16 gig of ram for an extra $270). 1TB SSDs did not exist at the time, and 512 gig was absurdly expensive and far more than i needed.

Why pay $1000 for 512 gig I don't need in 2011 when I can pay $200 for 512 gig I do need in 2015? It's Apple who wants to force you to buy as much as you'll ever need up front when prices are highest and then replace the whole machine when it turns out you underestimated even though by then the upgrade is dirt cheap if only the storage weren't soldered..

 

[melendezest]

Actually, you're wrong here. If I lose my computer, or the SSD dies, I can be back up and running on a different machine within minutes. My entire boot drive is backed up via Time Machine. I also keep a netboot image of my machines which automatically re-creates every 7 days (I just cron it to run overnight on Sunday evenings). If I need to, I can have any Mac up and running with my config, my settings and my files within minutes.

If time is your most valuable asset, then you should set aside some of that time to come up with a good backup plan.

In addition to the netboot image, I have:

- Machine backed up via Time Machine to home server
- Home server stores data on a Raid 5 array (not the most secure, but suits my needs)
- Home server is on a UPS, so a power failure is unlikely to cause damage to files
- Critical (only) data on the home server is backed up to an external disk automatically every week (and is automatically unmounted in case I'm hit by ransomware).
- As well as backing up to an external disk, what I call "mission critical" data is uploaded (encrypted, obviously) to a cloud backup service.

Therefore *touch wood* the chances of me losing critical data are slim. It's really not difficult, if you're confident with shell scripting, you can implement a good backup strategy on a Saturday afternoon, which is fully automated.

You're absolutely right and I stand corrected. I didn't flesh out my argument enough: My backups setup currently consists of (a still fairly complex setup of) N-syncing 3 Macs (a 17", a 15", and an iMac), and an external dual 3.5" enclosure. If one of my machines goes down, I can just use another until I can restore everything to the one that went down (if I'm home). While I don't like doing it, I could also set the restore at night when I go to bed (done that before). But that restore WILL take hours.

I agree that a solid backup mechanism is indispensable.

But by soldering the SSD to the logic board, Apple just made things a little bit harder,especially if you're in the field or traveling. If I drop my Mac and it needs to be serviced, I WILL be restoring. Like I stated before, this takes the simplest method of data recovery and introduces a lot of complexity and rethought, as well as infrastructure changes.

Your backup scheme, while appropriately robust, is still quite complicated (for many) and shows you know what you are doing. A few posts back I posited that anyone considering this machine would have to rethink their backup strategy. This is still true.

There are many scenarios speaking to the disadvantage of soldering the drive to the motherboard in this (ridiculously large) forum already, so I won't retread too much. For me, this makes the machine a deal-breaker. I am not going to spend time, effort, and money overhauling (and complicating) my backup/restore setup because Apple decided to do this. I'll just buy something else that fits. After all, backup/restore is just one of a long list of reasons (others here have already pointed out) why that is a dumb idea on a computer (as opposed to an iDevice).

But I can agree that this will be a non-issue for some.

 

[alvindarkness]

The standard allows for a connector height of 3.2mm. I guess a bespoke single sided module could allow a shorter connector but it's still going to stand proud of the logic board. I'm guessing at Apple's reasons as I can't think of a good one other than the thickness (thinness?) obsession.

Please don't think I am defending Apple, I want my next MBP to have upgradeable RAM and storage. Never going to happen though.

If you look at how razer has mounted two of them in their laptop you'll see the SSD's pcb is (almost) level with that of the mainboard. Seems plausible that a solution like that couldve been implemented by Apple without increasing the overall height of the MBP chassis. They certainly have enough room around their PCB as is, that space doesnt seem to be at a premium.

 

[FuNGi]

...buy why would I want a laptop that provide few new benefits, while introducing problems that weren't problems before?

Ain't nobody tring to convince you to buy buddy. I won't for years.

 

[loon3y]

Desktop, yes. Portable laptop... well... if they included everything that every person on this site demands that it should have, you would need a wheelbarrow to haul it around.

So multiple dongles and adapters is the key? Have you not even read my initial posts? People need to travel, not everyone is stuck to a cubicle desk.

Its pretty ridiculous how people are so closed minded on here. "My work place and situation is EVERYONES!"


Thats why there is "Professional Laptops"

 

[dilbert99]

Yes, but take a look at some SSD stress tests (+ the fact that supposedly most SSDs just lock, meaning, they don't become unreadable you just cant write to them)



I didn't mean its pointless because it makes no sense, it's pointless because it makes no difference because we had these discussion when
- air was introduced
- first gen retina was introduced
and voted with money twice (and will vote with money now the third time)
forum complains don't mean squat to apple, quarterly reports do.
And complainers aren't one bit louder then they were when rMBP 2012 came out! I remember, i was here, i was contemplating whether to buy previous gen, or retina, because of exact same concerns.

What they did do, they did optimize RAM latency to an absurd degree, impossible with non-soldered RAM! (You can say that's not pro or is pro, depends)
And with later gen retinas, at least proprietary connector was PCIe (When no laptop in existence yet supported PCie SSDs.)

But yes. I do see your point. I really do, and I agree with it to a certain degree.

I think that today "Pro" is mostly costumer support. It used to be "its super accessible to fix yourself" to avoid any downtime, but today, i think pro is mostly service. Whether you (or I) like that is beside the point. We vote with our money not with our opinions on forums.

I agree with most of what you wrote, I do believe that companies do take note of bad press. They'd be silly not to but I guess they will take more note of money spent. I have voted with my wallet. I bought a dell xps and have not yet upgraded my phone because there is no headphone or standard jack. It feels great in most ways but not in others.

 

[Ploki]

I agree with most of what you wrote, I do believe that companies do take note of bad press. They'd be silly not to but I guess they will take more note of money spent. I have voted with my wallet. I bought a dell xps and have not yet upgraded my phone because there is no headphone or standard jack. It feels great in most ways but not in others.

well my trackpad just died. on my rMBP. and now i can shell out 300€ for a top case. i agree with you 100% now.

 

[greytux]

I wonder what Steve, based on the above quote would think of this.

It was MacWorld 1999 and he was talking about the iMac. Why did you lie?

 

[deany]

It was MacWorld 1999 and he was talking about the iMac. Why did you lie?

Even the MacBook Pro was originally touted as an accessible, repairable machine — at Macworld in 2009, Steve Jobs said, “Our pro customers want accessibility: […] to add memory, to add cards, to add drives.” That’s part of what I love about my MacBook Pro. I’ve upgraded my RAM, and I even replaced my optical drive with an 80GB SSD.

www.wired.com/2012/06/opinion-apple-retina-displa/amp/?client=safari

 

[dilbert99]

well my trackpad just died. on my rMBP. and now i can shell out 300€ for a top case. i agree with you 100% now.

Apple does have great engineering that I love, but they really need to look at the insides and apply that great engineering in there too. Its a bit of a cop out gluing batteries in, soldering in SSD's and RAM.

I know in cars you tend to avoid those that need an engine dropped to change things.

 

[dannys1]

What is ridiculous here is you defending this clearly inferior setup. Are you really saying this is better than not having the SSD soldered in??

Where exactly did i use the words "it's better" ? It's clearly not better, but it's clearly not the issue people like you are making out.

What I obviously very clearly said is that it doesn't bother me one jot, because I know i'm never going to have problems due to it.

 

[melendezest]

Where exactly did i use the words "it's better" ? It's clearly not better, but it's clearly not the issue people like you are making out.

What I obviously very clearly said is that it doesn't bother me one jot, because I know i'm never going to have problems due to it.

It is exactly the issue people like me are making out. That's why we, plural, are pointing it out.

But I understand how it won't affect you like it affects us. All your posts have been defensive of Apple in some way regarding this issue.

But you have been missing the point of my posts from the beginning:

This used to be a non-existent issue for everyone, now it is an issue for many, thus Apple f'ed us up.
[doublepost=1479477893][/doublepost]

Even the MacBook Pro was originally touted as an accessible, repairable machine — at Macworld in 2009, Steve Jobs said, “Our pro customers want accessibility: […] to add memory, to add cards, to add drives.” That’s part of what I love about my MacBook Pro. I’ve upgraded my RAM, and I even replaced my optical drive with an 80GB SSD.

www.wired.com/2012/06/opinion-apple-retina-displa/amp/?client=safari

That Wired article is the single best explanation of why I have lost my faith in Apple completely, utterly, and irrecoverably.

It also explains in great detail how we ended up with an iPad for a MBP.

But the truth is, that I think Apple maybe knows something we don't. They are counting on the upgrade cycle; people buy their devices when released, regardless of anything. Based on the Apple defenders here, looks like their customers will pay whatever Apple feels like, for whatever Apple feels like giving them. Users that appreciate the way Apple used to be for the reasons outlined in the article are apparently in the minority and thus ignored by Apple completely.

I can't wait until next year to see the sales figures of this new MBP with Touch Bar when compared to the previous model, to see if these type of users left the platform and if it starts to have any kind of sales impact.

I know I'm not buying a Mac ever again.

 

[dannys1]

It is exactly the issue people like me are making out. That's why we, plural, are pointing it out.

But I understand how it won't affect you like it affects us. All your posts have been defensive of Apple in some way regarding this issue.

But you have been missing the point of my posts from the beginning:

This used to be a non-existent issue for everyone, now it is an issue for many, thus Apple f'ed us up.
[doublepost=1479477893][/doublepost]

That Wired article is the single best explanation of why I have lost my faith in Apple completely, utterly, and irrecoverably.

It also explains in great detail how we ended up with an iPad for a MBP.

But the truth is, that I think Apple maybe knows something we don't. They are counting on the upgrade cycle; people buy their devices when released, regardless of anything. Based on the Apple defenders here, looks like their customers will pay whatever Apple feels like, for whatever Apple feels like giving them. Users that appreciate the way Apple used to be for the reasons outlined in the article are apparently in the minority and thus ignored by Apple completely.

I can't wait until next year to see the sales figures of this new MBP with Touch Bar when compared to the previous model, to see if these type of users left the platform and if it starts to have any kind of sales impact.

I know I'm not buying a Mac ever again.

And again new information seems to show there's a connector directly to the SSD to get the data off if the driver files - proprietary it may be, but thats exactly the same situation as every MacBook since 2013 when they've been connected with proprietary connectors.

So in other words, for all the hoo har we're in exactly the same position as the last few years. Thats why I feel the need to be defensive because you have to offer the balanced side people seem incapable of doing these days when all the facts come out.

If everyone here was pro-Apple i'd be arguing the opposite side. People seem incapable of reasoning in the middle on the internet.

 

[cmaier]

Apparently there's a connector on the main board so apple can pull data off the SSD if they need to change the mainboard. Or at least so speculates ifixit in a new update.

And everyone claiming there is no benefit to soldering is forgetting that there are electrical benefits to soldering vs slot connectors.