15inch PowerBook Details and Supplies

[matthaeus]

New OS X Smells Like G5

Okay, think about this. The new powerbooks will obstensibly ship with a new operating system, the 10.2.7 fork called "Blackrider."

If these where just going to be new Alubooks, why use a new operating system? Speedbumps won't mean new hardware, so that means that no new OS support is need.

AFAIK, the present Alubooks run 10.2.6, and this supports them in entirety: Ethernet chipsets, light sensing circuitry, lighted keyboard, FW 800, integrated BlueTooth, and AirPort Extreme.

The only reason they'd need a new OS is if they needed to support NEW hardware, such as a new processor architecture.

The only other possibility is that 10.2.7/Blackrider will be some sort of maintenence update to 10.2.6 for 32 bit computers, but then, why would it be released specifically with the new alubooks, and not as a general upgrade?

Comments?

(Note, originally, I said Smeagol instead of Blackrider, a mistake on my part. Corrected by PhilOfMac.)

 

[Phil Of Mac]

Re: Re: Re: Re: i hate steve jobs

Originally posted by soggywulf
I bought a B&W 400. I recall that the contemporary PCs were P3/500s. Outperformed? I wish. I hope you are not basing this on Apple bake-offs?

A 400 MHz G3 can indeed outperform a 500 MHz P3. The Megahertz Myth is indeed a myth. No, it doesn't apply to widely disparate MHz rating (such as 1 GHz vs. 500 MHz in the case of the G4) but if you're within 80% of the competitor's megahertz rating with a superior architecture, you will be faster.

Originally posted by soggywulf
I don't think so. The situation that you describe has been in place for 15-20 years (aside from a paltry 2 years of clones). Few people have learned anything and switched in that time--in fact, many have gone the other way. Why will they start learning now?

Apple has only been involved in serious marketing during two periods of time, both of which were the two Jobs eras. The advantages of Mac OS X, coupled with the G5 once it reaches across the line, will give Apple a far stronger position to market from.

Originally posted by soggywulf
There are several large business apps that you can't get on the Mac. I wouldn't call PeopleSoft and SAP "small and specific markets". In any case, I would like Apple to play to win, not play to stagnate.

They are specific markets. Unfortunately, they are not Apple's specific markets. Apple at this point in time can only compete in a few markets: content creation, home consumers, education, general computing, mobile computing. Business is not one of Apple's core markets. Apple right now is not big enough to pursue too many markets at once. At this point they're making thrusts into the science and enterprise sectors.

The reason Apple almost died between 1995 and 1997 was because they tried to sell everything to everyone, and was spread so thin that in the end, they hardly sold anything to anyone. Apple HAS to focus on a few core markets and expand out.

 

[Phil Of Mac]

Re: New OS X Smells Like G5

Originally posted by matthaeus
Okay, think about this. The new powerbooks will obstensibly ship with a new operating system, the 10.2.7 fork called "Smeagol."

If these where just going to be new Alubooks, why use a new operating system? Speedbumps won't mean new hardware, so that means that no new OS support is need.

AFAIK, the present Alubooks run 10.2.6, and this supports them in entirety: Ethernet chipsets, light sensing circuitry, lighted keyboard, FW 800, integrated BlueTooth, and AirPort Extreme.

The only reason they'd need a new OS is if they needed to support NEW hardware, such as a new processor architecture.

The only other possibility is that 10.2.7/Smeagol will be some sort of maintenence update to 10.2.6 for 32 bit computers, but then, why would it be released specifically with the new alubooks, and not as a general upgrade?

Comments?

Smeagol is the PM G5 version of 10.2.7. The PowerBook version is Blackrider. Whether this means a G5 or not is up for considerable speculation.

Edit: Since matthaeus edited his post, this one is no longer of value. It is saved here for posterity.

That said, I think it indicates a PowerBook G5. The original AlBooks didn't have a Mac OS X point update, so I doubt anything less than a processor change could have caused this (if the rumor is indeed true).

 

[soggywulf]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: i hate steve jobs

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
A 400 MHz G3 can indeed outperform a 500 MHz P3. The Megahertz Myth is indeed a myth. No, it doesn't apply to widely disparate MHz rating (such as 1 GHz vs. 500 MHz in the case of the G4) but if you're within 80% of the competitor's megahertz rating with a superior architecture, you will be faster.

I used a P3/500 at work, and a B&W400 at home. The P3/500 was faster.

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Apple has only been involved in serious marketing during two periods of time, both of which were the two Jobs eras. The advantages of Mac OS X, coupled with the G5 once it reaches across the line, will give Apple a far stronger position to market from.

We'll see. I still don't believe that will happen. And I still think that lowering prices to be competitive with Wintel (on powermac, powerbook, and consumer lines) will yield better results than telling people how great OSX is. The greatness of OSX is somewhat intangible--you can't market it very well. What are you going to say after all? There's a reason those TV ads focus on "world's fastest personal computer" and raw power blowing the kid through walls. That's something people can get a handle on. Performance, and price. "World's fastest laptop computer, now only $2500. Visit your local Apple retailer today." That's a message people will listen to. "Has a pretty looking bubbly interface and multi-tasks very efficiently. Opens up the world of unix to home users. Buy one for only $3500". Who's going to listen to that?

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Apple right now is not big enough to pursue too many markets at once. At this point they're making thrusts into the science and enterprise sectors.

Fine. But in all these markets, Apple should strive to convert the heathen, not just keep the faithful.

 

[matthaeus]

Whether this means a G5 or not is up for considerable speculation.

Yeah, I'd definitely say considerable speculation. Although, AFAIK, no one has addressed the software issue, which to me suggests a hardware change, not a speedbump.

I suppose it could be new GPUs, the Nvidia 5200 Go is shipping, AFAIK. Maybe an ATI Radeon Mobility 9600, but I've been hearing that it will be an Nvidia GPU.

Hypothetically—this is all hypothetical—it could be something as trivial as a new network chip or something miniscule. But I really doubt it, because a speedbump would simply be a faster clock.

As far as moving the 15" to the alubook architecture, I'm sure apple would leverage the design of the 12" and 17", not implement a new chipset.

If we do assume we'll be seeing 7457's, then I suppose the OS update could just be an optimization for that platform, but I really doubt it.

The different buildtrains—Smeagol and Blackrider—probably arose because they needed to get a 64 bit COMPATIBLE—none of you fools flame me about it not being 64 bit, those are two different things—operating system out of the door ASAP. It would thus minimize work for the people responsible for Smeagol. They could then implement Blackrider in time for the new powerbooks.

Again, I take this new operating system to mean that we're in for a pant crapper to some degree.

 

[Phil Of Mac]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: i hate steve jobs

Originally posted by soggywulf
We'll see. I still don't believe that will happen. And I still think that lowering prices to be competitive with Wintel (on powermac, powerbook, and consumer lines) will yield better results than telling people how great OSX is.

And my point is, that's not even possible, Apple has much higher overhead costs that Wintel manufacturers don't have. Even if Apple did that and started losing money, they still wouldn't gain much market share because of inertia. Apple will lose any price war.

Again, market share is not a primary consideration. It is nice to have, but Apple does not exist to pursue market share. Apple is not that insecure girl in high school who wants everyone to like her. What that girl did, to try and get everyone to like her, was to become a slut. If Apple were to do that, much like that insecure girl, they would lose respect, even though they may gain raw marketshare.

 

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by matthaeus
Hypothetically—this is all hypothetical—it could be something as trivial as a new network chip or something miniscule. But I really doubt it, because a speedbump would simply be a faster clock.

If they did something like that, they would release a slightly different build number of the same point version. No, we're looking at something more significant here. A processor change would definitely fit the bill, but there are other possibilities.

 

[soggywulf]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: i hate steve jobs

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
they would lose respect, even though they may gain raw marketshare.

What respect does Apple have, outside the Mac faithful? At best, other people consider Apple as pretty irrelevant, if it is even mentioned at all. I am talking about both home and enterprise markets, here. Education is a little different, since in edu people seem to appreciate Apple more--for now. Apple can either pull their socks up and compete, or continue to pander to the same dwindling community.

You speak as though the war is already lost, and there's nothing to be done about it.

 

[Phil Of Mac]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: i hate steve jobs

Originally posted by soggywulf
What respect does Apple have, outside the Mac faithful? At best, other people consider Apple as pretty irrelevant, if it is even mentioned at all. I am talking about both home and enterprise markets, here. Education is a little different, since in edu people seem to appreciate Apple more--for now. Apple can either pull their socks up and compete, or continue to pander to the same dwindling community.

Apple is gaining an increasing degree of respect from everyone from iPod users to Unix geeks to content creators. Very few have an unfavorable opinion of Apple. If Apple were to wildly attack every sector at once, madly attempting to overcome Windows in market share, everyone would consider Apple to be a stupid, flailing, even beleaguered company.

Originally posted by soggywulf
You speak as though the war is already lost, and there's nothing to be done about it.

What--so you think Apple can overcome Microsoft in market share? You think they should try that? That might be an okay long term plan, but it can't be Apple's overriding focus.

 

[sacrilicious]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: i hate steve jobs

Originally posted by soggywulf
I still think that lowering prices to be competitive with Wintel (on powermac, powerbook, and consumer lines) will yield better results than telling people how great OSX is. The greatness of OSX is somewhat intangible--you can't market it very well. What are you going to say after all? There's a reason those TV ads focus on "world's fastest personal computer" and raw power blowing the kid through walls. That's something people can get a handle on. Performance, and price. "World's fastest laptop computer, now only $2500. Visit your local Apple retailer today." That's a message people will listen to. "Has a pretty looking bubbly interface and multi-tasks very efficiently. Opens up the world of unix to home users. Buy one for only $3500". Who's going to listen to that?

Hey, I agree with you for the second time!

 

[sacrilicious]

Apple back to school email

Just got my Apple back to school email:

Shopping at the Apple Store for Education is one back-to-school expedition that’s actually fun. No pushing, no shoving, no checkout lines. Just great computers and great products—cases, cameras, wireless equipment, printers, speakers, iPod, iSight, and more—everything you need for work and play.

Yeah, except there's no 15" PowerBook.

 

[yujini]

Yeah when they offer 15 inch for less than 1900 and you can get an ipod for 60 bux, it ought to be sold out.

I was at my school's apple store and the guy on the phone was explaining how apple isn't sending them a 15 inch ever. He's been waiting for 2 weeks for his 15 inch and apparently there's quite a lot of people waiting for the ti15'

 

[sacrilicious]

Well surely there must be a 15" being made.

 

[lord_flash]

Originally posted by sacrilicious
Well surely there must be a 15" being made.

You'd hope, wouldn't you? But until I see one on the Tottenham Court Road, then I'm going to remain sceptical.

Thing is, there are alot of very tempting, lightweight, elegant, very reasonably priced PCs in those shops already. And just the ungainly (from my perspective) 17" sitting next to them, twie the size and damn near twice the price.

And we know that, even when Apple do announce it (Paris looking pretty inevitable now, unless it's an embarassingly minimal update snuck out before or after) it'll be another few months before anyone actually gets their mits on them. And an extra month for me since I live in the UK.

It's pretty frustraiting, isn't it? I'd order a Ti book if I didn't know that it'd take yonks to deliver too, and would represent laughable value-for-money.

 

[AllenPSU]

Why rush...

Originally posted by sacrilicious
Well surely there must be a 15" being made.

Since Apple didn't release any new products in this past week, I don't see why they would rush a product out before Apple Expo. Sure they would get an extra two weeks of sales but they would lose the big media push associated with the Expo.

Anything Apple has will probably wait until the 16th.

 

[soggywulf]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: i hate steve jobs

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
What--so you think Apple can overcome Microsoft in market share? You think they should try that? That might be an okay long term plan, but it can't be Apple's overriding focus.

Yes, absolutely, Apple should be going after MS and MS customers! Who else should they be competing against? Linux? I think not. And who else can compete against MS, if not Apple? Apple is a big company with plenty of cash. Let's see them play to win!

And what else should Apple's focus be, if not competing against MS? Removing floppies? Adding FW800? Expose? Please. MS has made strong inroads even in their core markets (like content creation). It's time for Apple to get their act together. This argument you are putting forward about "being everything to everyone killing them" is simply not logical. I'm not asking them to recreate SAP and all the other "specific" applications. They are not in the business of being anything to anyone in particular (besides FCP). They are in the business of making a platform for everything else to run on.

 

[rjstanford]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: i hate steve jobs

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
A 400 MHz G3 can indeed outperform a 500 MHz P3. The Megahertz Myth is indeed a myth. No, it doesn't apply to widely disparate MHz rating (such as 1 GHz vs. 500 MHz in the case of the G4) but if you're within 80% of the competitor's megahertz rating with a superior architecture, you will be faster.

Keep in mind that this is true even within the intel chips. For example, the 1.7ghz Pentium M processor outperforms in the same a 2.6ghz Pentium 4 processor (see intel's data) with substantially better power usage.

In fact, my previous (unscientific) research showed the Pentium M performing pretty close by to the G5, clock-for-clock. That's with or without the use of optimized compilers (ICC/xlC) for both chips, by the way. Its a great chip. Of course, you can already get 1.7ghz versions of it in laptops today.

Say what you will about their architectural decisions, intel knows how to make some damn fine chips. The good news, of course, is that IBM does as well. Now we finally have a real battle between different architectures.

-Richard

 

[zapp]

I gave up

It came to me last night. I have more than enough computer to do what I want right now. My wife was sure to pipe in and said, except for the 30 Minute " I gotta new toy" feeling, I would probably do the same stuff with it. So I bought 512 Mbs of RAM last night. And I will be buying the Applecare now I guess, just in case. But MAC's still Rule

Edit:

How many others aren't buying now?

 

[Bruja]

Re: ^20: i hate steve jobs

Originally posted by soggywulf
What respect does Apple have, outside the Mac faithful? At best, other people consider Apple as pretty irrelevant, if it is even mentioned at all. I am talking about both home and enterprise markets, here. Education is a little different, since in edu people seem to appreciate Apple more--for now. Apple can either pull their socks up and compete, or continue to pander to the same dwindling community.

You speak as though the war is already lost, and there's nothing to be done about it.

the question is: What is aapl willing to do?? (beating the dead horse) it's lack of upgrades for it's Pbk lines may be a warning for others and ensure a larger comfort level for wintel. Though the powermac G-5 is sweeeet, how long will it take the wintel makers to catch up and surpass aapl like they did in the laptop venue??

 

[codemother]

Re: I gave up

How many others aren't buying now?

I am going to try not to now - it will be linux on a (intel) desktop for me. Wish me luck with setting up a wireless lan.
🙂

 

[cybermat]

This whole waiting game is killing me.... I am a long time Windows PC user and I am quite happy with it. Recently, I was shopping for a laptop and I had my first look at a powerbook and OSX. I really like what I saw. But being a PC user for such a long time, I was skeptical about the switch. I have to go through a new learning curve. Software wise, I would have to buy new softwares. Anyway, it was very hard for me to convince myself since tests have shown that even the top 1gig G4 powerbook is slower than the top of the line Penitum-M notebook and they cost roughly the same. Not to mention I was only looking at the 12" at the time. However, Apple did sweeten things up by offering the bundle package which included an ipod and a printer with mail-in rebates. I almost finalized my order when I did a search on virtual PC and found out that the software recommends L3 cache to run at acceptable speed. For sure I will need to run virtual PC since I do PLC programming and the PLC program is only available on Windows platfrom. Then I started looking at the 15" Ti model, but this model hasn't been updated for a while and there is a number of known problems with this model such as the keyboard marks, poor wi-fi reception and it costs even more. This is a tougher choice since I can't seem to justify spending over $3000 CAD for an outdated model with problems while I can spend the same or even less for a top of the line Pentium-M notebook. A friend of mine told me that the 15" is due for a revision and a new model will come out anytime soon and he pointed me to this website. Since then, I've been following the rumours religiously and hoping for a new 15" to come out, but the matter is I can't wait any longer, school is starting.

Is the 12" with 640 MB of ram sufficient for virtual PC? Is so, I will just go and buy the 12" and RIP.

Sorry for the long story, I need to let the steam out.


Sincerely,
An ordinary PC user with the everyday PC->MAC struggle

 

[agentmouthwash]

Re: I gave up

Originally posted by zapp

How many others aren't buying now?

My next computer will be a G5 Powerbook, so if they just update the G4 to 1.25ghz, I'm just going to upgrade my Powermac G4 400mhz to a 1ghz (Sonnet upgrade card for 400 bucks).

I can wait.

 

[freundt]

Originally posted by cybermat
This whole waiting game is killing me.... I am a long time Windows PC user and I am quite happy with it. Recently, I was shopping for a laptop and I had my first look at a powerbook and OSX. I really like what I saw. But being a PC user for such a long time, I was skeptical about the switch.

...

Since then, I've been following the rumours religiously and hoping for a new 15" to come out, but the matter is I can't wait any longer, school is starting.

...

Sincerely,
An ordinary PC user with the everyday PC->MAC struggle

Amen.

So I went an ordered a custom built compaq X1000 1.6 Pentinum M notebook. It's ship date is the 26th of september -- and I have 30 days to return it after that. (and it's price is $2400... with a DVD r+/rw drive.)

So, if I want to switch, why did I do this? In case the PB update is as lame as everyone says it is going to be I will still have a great Pentinum M notebook.

And if it is a G5, I can return it.

_f

 

[soggywulf]

Re: Re: ^20: i hate steve jobs

Originally posted by cybermat
Is the 12" with 640 MB of ram sufficient for virtual PC? Is so, I will just go and buy the 12" and RIP.

It depends on whether your PLC program a resource hog. If it is, you will likely be very disappointed in the performance of this software under VPC. How fast is your current PC that you run the PLC on? And is that PC fast enough for your software, or do you find yourself waiting for the app more than you want to?

 

[robodweeb]

Originally posted by cybermat
Is the 12" with 640 MB of ram sufficient for virtual PC? Is so, I will just go and buy the 12" and RIP.

Virtual PC 6.0 is optimized for G4s with substantial L3 cache to achieve its marginal performance and the 12" PBs have no L3 cache. It would run but extremely slowly ... the only thing that I've seen work reasonably fast are network transfers (minimal processing required) ...